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VagueRant posted:I'm still downright fascinated by the way Red Country works on levels. The way I read that first chapter and as soon as I hit "you have to be realistic" my brain exploded and I had to read the entire first chapter AGAIN. All of the post trilogy books are like that but red country moreso
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Feb 24, 2016 12:23
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I think Red Country might be his best? It's that or Best Served Cold for me, although I've not re-read RC yet. Something about the way he inverts the entirety of the previous series really took me aback. None of the violence was cathartic or exciting, you were reading all the fight scenes in between your fingers instead of going "gently caress yeh stab the dude" because it was portrayed as having such a horrible and massive cost. You started to really dislike Lamb and hate Cosca. Interesting stuff.
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Feb 24, 2016 22:36
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I never started to dislike Lamb.
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Feb 24, 2016 22:43
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I don't know, I was rooting for lamb to chop all their heads off during that last fight in the house. I really love any scene where the bloody nine comes out. There might be something wrong with me though and I bame joe. He somehow makes you love the most horrible and despicable characters in his book. The only acception for me is morveer, I never hated a character more and I don't mean hate how he was written I mean hate the character for their actions and what they say.
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Feb 24, 2016 22:44
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I never disliked Lamb, but seeing him through other characters' eyes in a way that was largely absent from the trilogy certainly changed my perception of him.
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Feb 24, 2016 22:48
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Khizan posted:I never started to dislike Lamb. I get that he's likeable, but in the original trilogy his "bloody nine" moments were a fight-or-flight response to a situation he generally had zero control over, or where if he wasn't violent he'd be making things worse. Red Country (Again) turns that around by putting him on a quest where he repeatedly elects to solve the problems he faces in the most violent way he's able to.
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Feb 24, 2016 22:51
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I feel like there's something in the way that we all read the trilogy and rooted for the Logen we saw outside of the north, the weary veteran trying to be a better man, and we were sad when he dragged himself back into his bloody past...Then this book shows you the perspective of someone who knows a Logen that found peace and escaped all that bloody business, but eventually accepts that's who he is. He enjoys it. It breaks Shy's heart a little and ours too, maybe.
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Feb 24, 2016 22:55
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Evfedu posted:The scene with the dragon people was legit stomach-turning. As cool as Waerdinur may have been, he was also the man who paid a slaver to burn Logen's farm, kill Logen's friend, and kidnap Logen's children, and who did this kind of thing regularly despite knowing what that entailed. Each generation of Dragon People is a generation of death, destruction, and stolen children. They are not the good guys here. What they got, they deserved. VagueRant posted:I feel like there's something in the way that we all read the trilogy and rooted for the Logen we saw outside of the north, the weary veteran trying to be a better man, and we were sad when he dragged himself back into his bloody past...Then this book shows you the perspective of someone who knows a Logen that found peace and escaped all that bloody business, but eventually accepts that's who he is. He enjoys it. It breaks Shy's heart a little and ours too, maybe. One thing about Logen is that all through the original trilogy, he wasn't really actually angry. He was fighting because he had to, or because he owed a debt, or to help a friend, or whatever. The Bloody-Nine killed indiscriminately when he came around because that's what he does, but Logen wasn't actually angry. Red Country is, IIRC, the first time you really see him go after somebody because Logen himself is pissed off and wants to kill them, and I think that makes a difference. Khizan fucked around with this message at 00:31 on Feb 25, 2016 |
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Feb 24, 2016 23:49
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Edit: spoilered because I think Literally The Worst is still midway through the book.Khizan posted:As cool as Waerdinur may have been, he was also the man who paid a slaver to burn Logen's farm, kill Logen's friend, and kidnap Logen's children, and who did this kind of thing regularly despite knowing what that entailed. Each generation of Dragon People is a generation of death, destruction, and stolen children. They are not the good guys here. What they got, they deserved. As for Logen, it's a tricky one. Logen wasn't the Bloody Nine when he smashed Bethod's skull into the parapet. He wasn't the Bloody Nine when he made the choice to go back to the North because he had "scores to settle". It was Logen who broke that one guy's nose for trying to give him some useful advice. And it's not like he has no responsibility for what the Bloody Nine does - he knows what will happen and he knowingly puts himself in situations where the monster will emerge. The fact he could settle down on a farm for twenty(?) odd years with zero Bloody Nineing is proof of that. The only difference with Red Country is that he lets that veneer of civility, the pretense of wanting to be a better man drop a little more, finally admits that he wants the blood, that he's still - in his own words - a oval office. (Well, that and the line between the two personalities seems to have blurred somewhat in his old age...) VagueRant fucked around with this message at 00:59 on Feb 25, 2016 |
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Feb 25, 2016 00:57
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What I thought was most interesting about RC was the way Cosca was handled. His mannerisms, methods and motivations are almost completely consistent throughout series, yet in this book he effortlessly slips into the role of villain. The only thing necessary to turn him from a lovable cheeky bastard into a hateful murderous bastard is perspective -- we finally see the marauding firsthand, narrated by characters with intact moral compasses. No heel turn needed.
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Feb 25, 2016 01:33
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Evfedu posted:I think Red Country might be his best? It's that or Best Served Cold for me, although I've not re-read RC yet. nah dude, i felt for lamb way harder. if Red Country is his way of doing a western (and it fuckin is) it's The Searchers starring Shane. he's a violent man who accepts that he is a violent man and in the end the best thing he can do for the people he has to protect is ride away, at the conclusion of a story about how all these people we've seen for five books and thought of as heroes are actually awful pieces of poo poo if you shift the perspective just a smidge. i thought The Heroes was his best, with its borderline Vietnam poo poo, but holy fuckin hell
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Feb 25, 2016 03:52
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Yeah I think I need to re-read Red Country, it wasn't my favorite on a first read but as I've reflected on it, it's become really good in my head. I agree with the dragon people scene being stomach-turning - that was some brutal poo poo and I felt pretty uncomfortable having rooted for Logen from the start. It makes you realize how awful Cosca and Logen are when viewed from the outside in a way the other books never really did. Obviously a little reasoning could have led one to conclude that from the earlier books, but Abercrombie really rubs your face in it in RC. It's definitely a strength of the book even as it produces negative emotions upon reading - those definitely colored my first impression.
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Feb 25, 2016 04:20
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the more i think about it the more i realize that Red Country is literally Joe Abercrombie's version of the Searchers down to the bit about a man of violence, who audiences have been sorta conditioned to see as a hero, revealed as the monster he is on a quest to save children from totally not native americans
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Feb 25, 2016 04:35
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Khizan posted:One thing about Logen is that all through the original trilogy, he wasn't really actually angry. Oh I think Bethod might have something to say about that
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Feb 25, 2016 07:10
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I am reading through Best Served Cold after finishing the trilogy and its great, I will come comment on all the books in the thread when I finish this and the other 2 stand alones but I just want to say this: Bayaz is Gandalf + Denzel Washington from Training Day Discuss
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Feb 26, 2016 07:13
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He's the worst person in the series.
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Feb 26, 2016 12:11
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his nemesis presides over a slaving empire and has a servant army of flesh eating superhumans. people keep saying 'oh well bayaz must be worse and khalid (or whatever his name was) became that just to fight him, and is actually morally superior.' the last bit isn't said explicitly but is implied. i doubt it.
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Feb 26, 2016 12:13
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All wizards are arseholes. Also Best Served Cold is the only one of Abercrombie's nine books that I didn't like. At all. 
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Feb 26, 2016 12:26
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Khizan posted:As cool as Waerdinur may have been, he was also the man who paid a slaver to burn Logen's farm, kill Logen's friend, and kidnap Logen's children, and who did this kind of thing regularly despite knowing what that entailed. Each generation of Dragon People is a generation of death, destruction, and stolen children. They are not the good guys here. What they got, they deserved. Except that this isn't really the case. Waerdinur just wanted children. He didn't care where they came from. IIRC he asks the guy who delivers them if there are no orphans from the war or no beggar children. He would have been quite happy to take in children who had nowhere else to go. He is disappointed by the methods the bandits used, and when they say "I did my best" he says "it saddens me that this is your best". Neurosis posted:his nemesis presides over a slaving empire and has a servant army of flesh eating superhumans. people keep saying 'oh well bayaz must be worse and khalid (or whatever his name was) became that just to fight him, and is actually morally superior.' the last bit isn't said explicitly but is implied. i doubt it. You can be morally superior to Byaz and still be a loving monster.
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Feb 26, 2016 13:44
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denimgorilla posted:He's the best person in the series.
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Feb 26, 2016 15:10
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empire that extends slavery wherever it goes. cannibal overlords. bayaz is the greater ever here?
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Feb 26, 2016 15:12
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They are both terrible. Neither of them has to be morally superior compared to the other.
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Feb 26, 2016 15:20
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It's a choice between violent fundamentalism and global capitalism, the whole system is built around accepting one terrible evil for fear of another. The Union also employs slaves, but has prison colonies instead of chattel slavery.
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Feb 26, 2016 15:21
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Andrast posted:They are both terrible. Neither of them has to be morally superior compared to the other. This. Bayaz is more present, though, so he's the big bad of the books. The other guy would be just as bad for the people who live under him, but we don't see that up-close (at least not yet).
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Feb 26, 2016 16:14
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I know most people disliked her but I really hope we get a book about ferro after the events in the trilogy.
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Feb 26, 2016 18:50
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Clinton1011 posted:I know most people disliked her but I really hope we get a book about ferro after the events in the trilogy.
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Feb 26, 2016 20:26
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Agreed. There is too much plot potential wrapped up in Ferro to never revisit her especially after how effectively he has reincorporated previous characters into his work before. I'm definitely of the sort that thinks Abercrombie's best book is always the last one he wrote ( excluding Half a _____ series being YA and all). Red Country was so good y'all.
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Feb 27, 2016 13:56
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The Puppy Bowl posted:Agreed. There is too much plot potential wrapped up in Ferro to never revisit her especially after how effectively he has reincorporated previous characters into his work before. I'm definitely of the sort that thinks Abercrombie's best book is always the last one he wrote ( excluding Half a _____ series being YA and all). I like The Heroes more than Red Country but Abercrombie has definitely gotten a lot better since the original trilogy.
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Feb 27, 2016 13:58
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I feel your like or dislike of the genre that influenced the stand alone books really colors your opinion of the books. I loving loved red country but I also really like westerns, it just hit a lot of the right notes for me.
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Feb 27, 2016 18:57
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Red Country was good (sort of meandered in the middle though) just extremely underwhelming to me compared to Heroes which I feel is his strongest effort by far.
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Feb 28, 2016 12:49
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What disappointed me about Red Country was that I really liked Shy, and Temple just took over completely as the protagonist.
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Feb 28, 2016 13:34
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What I loved about Red Country was how grudgingly he gave Shy and Temple a happy ending. Lord Grimdark, indeed
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Feb 28, 2016 18:14
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Hey, he gave Glokta and Ardee a (somewhat) happy ending too. And some of the dudes in The Heroes!
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Feb 28, 2016 18:36
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Beck realizing what he had and going home to his mom was sweet.
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Feb 28, 2016 21:53
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:Beck realizing what he had and going home to his mom was sweet. I think the point is that the only way to survive and not end up mangled/dead/insane is to stop being a main character.
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Feb 28, 2016 23:37
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Yeah, but Lestek's line about how he used to hate happy endings hung the proverbial lampshade on it.
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Feb 29, 2016 00:15
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ZekeNY posted:What I loved about Red Country was how grudgingly he gave Shy and Temple a happy ending. Lord Grimdark, indeed Red Country is so loving good.
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Feb 29, 2016 01:20
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Cosca was my favorite character in the earlier books, I liked Red Country because it was fun to see what it looks like staring down the barrel of the Nicomo Cosca gun.
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Mar 2, 2016 19:44
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Funny, that was actually one of the reasons I didn't like Red Country as much as the other books. Like, sure, Cosca was obviously a dick what with him running a mercenary company and all, but he wasn't a murderous piece of poo poo in the other books. Well, not of the magnitude that he was in RC.
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Mar 3, 2016 22:28
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Cosca was always murderous piece of poo poo, though. It's just that in Red Country the point of view closest to him belongs to a guy who may be the last decent guy in universe. I was really glad that Shy and Temple got something of a happy ending though. Poor Brand in Half a War.
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Mar 3, 2016 22:54
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