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So out of curiosity, what do people think of the Batgirl 49 issue? For those unaware: there's basically a page that implies The Killing Joke was a fake memory implanted by the villain and everyone is saying this is the creative team's attempt to retcon TKJ from Barbara's history. I'll be honest - I don't like it. For better or worse, it happened in her history. If you don't want to keep talking about it, then stop bringing it up. Retconning it away as a fake memory, which honestly makes no sense even in the confines of this current run, feels like an inappropriate solution. It would be like Jason's death getting retconned.
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Mar 3, 2016 03:43
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I was under the impression they had already said it hadn't happened to this version of the character. This halfway poo poo makes no sense. What's the point of a reboot if you still have to write in-universe explanations for your retcons?
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Mar 3, 2016 03:49
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If it didn't happen, then what was the experimental South African treatment meant to fix? Or are we supposed to think that only happened to Simone Babs and not to Stewart Babs?
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Mar 3, 2016 04:21
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That page is a mix of false things and memories, like swinging through Gotham with Robin probably isn't a lie, but the angry/sad wedding would be. There's also a quote to James Jr from the Black Mirror and he's been established as is with a stabbed out eye (I think? I stopped reading Suicide Squad) so 'nightmare' parts aren't necessarily false. Doesn't Batgirl #0 or the Zero Year tie-in end with The Joker at her door? e: Yup. ee: The new Batgirl page in question, since it just looks cool. 
Teenage Fansub fucked around with this message at 05:18 on Mar 3, 2016 |
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Mar 3, 2016 04:21
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Yeah that's why I don't like the implication this is carrying. It also makes no sense because then what of all the other characters surrounding Barbara. Do they have fake memories of it too? Did Bruce, Joker and Gordon just hallucinate it? Not to mention even in the first story arc there was a point made of Barbara once being paralyzed and making friends with Frankie at the rehab center. If people want to have Barbara stop being associated with TKJ, then just stop bringing it up. At this point it's so part of her history that showing her getting shot over and over is as gratuitous as seeing Bruce's parents be killed over and over. Yeah, we get it's important, but it's not the only important thing.
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Mar 3, 2016 04:57
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A page that beautiful could tell me that my mother never liked me, and I'd deal with it because it's so beautiful.
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Mar 3, 2016 05:10
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Guys. The concentric circles from the top are the implanted memories. The concentric circles from the bottom are the real ones. Just read the layout of the page, she's getting the real memories, including TKJ, back.
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Mar 3, 2016 05:12
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I'm sure you're not supposed to assume anything other than the contradictory stuff is a false memory. When she's got her perfect memory back, she recalls the villain taunting her, mentioning past events and bad guys in the run as they were. Frankie still has her dumb cyber interface which is based on Barb's, which refers back to her treatment, which refers back to her crippling.
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Mar 3, 2016 05:16
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lotus circle posted:Yeah that's why I don't like the implication this is carrying. It also makes no sense because then what of all the other characters surrounding Barbara. Do they have fake memories of it too? Did Bruce, Joker and Gordon just hallucinate it? Not to mention even in the first story arc there was a point made of Barbara once being paralyzed and making friends with Frankie at the rehab center. For god's sake, it would have been so much easier if they'd just retconned TKJ out with the reboot. If they were getting rid of Oracle, might as well get rid of the fridging at the same instant. But noooo.
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Mar 3, 2016 08:27
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Teenage Fansub posted:I'm sure you're not supposed to assume anything other than the contradictory stuff is a false memory. I liked that this issue had Frankie and Dinah working together to help Babs, felt like a natural lead into the BoP relaunch.
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Mar 3, 2016 14:36
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TKJ wasn't intended to be canon in the first place but it's like the second most popular story DC has ever printed so it keeps getting referenced endlessly.
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Mar 3, 2016 14:44
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Yvonmukluk posted:For god's sake, it would have been so much easier if they'd just retconned TKJ out with the reboot. If they were getting rid of Oracle, might as well get rid of the fridging at the same instant. But noooo.
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Mar 3, 2016 14:45
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Teenage Fansub posted:ee: The new Batgirl page in question, since it just looks cool.
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Mar 3, 2016 14:50
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It's so fun seeing the internet throwing a fit over Bruce's accepting Jason's methods in the most recent B&R:E
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Mar 3, 2016 18:46
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Wait he does? That is like the exact opposite of what batman should do, though I guess this is enough to change your opinion on the comic.
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Mar 3, 2016 19:01
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CharlestheHammer posted:Wait he does? That is like the exact opposite of what batman should do, though I guess this is enough to change your opinion on the comic.  And no, the series is still dogshit. While this is a great scene, is something it should've been done a long time ago on the actual Batman book. And Bruce's accepting Jason's methods is something that has been established since RHATO 17 and then proved again in the Batman Superman Annual.
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Mar 3, 2016 19:10
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Teenage Fansub posted:There are no details on the Relaunch books other than titles. There's a 'Batgirl and The Birds' of Prey comic Spoiler and/or Cass could slot into. The cover for Batgirl #50 looks like it could be what it'll look like, but it would be nice to get some kind of info on what's going on.
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Mar 3, 2016 19:12
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No, it's not a great scene, it's horseshit and bad writing. I guess you can be all if you want but it's especially horseshit considering he's spent years telling Damian "We don't kill, ever, at all, under any circumstances" and now oh apparently it's cool if Jason does it. In the same breath he's telling Damian to go on his own path and be his own kind of Robin - he was raised by assassins, he would absolutely be killing people if he went on his own path. It's fine though, as previously established, any panels with Jason in them are just part of Jason's coma dream where he's loved and accepted by actual, good superheroes.
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Mar 3, 2016 19:15
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Dark_Tzitzimine posted:
Jesus Christ it's like that dumb scene where Captain America says " I don't torture people, but this guy does" like you not directly doing it absolves you or something. It's terrible writing.
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Mar 3, 2016 19:17
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Dark_Tzitzimine posted:
I have read one or two Batman comics over my wasted life, and Bruce Wayne would never ever loving say that some people deserve to be murdered. redbackground fucked around with this message at 19:41 on Mar 3, 2016 |
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Mar 3, 2016 19:23
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Dark_Tzitzimine posted:
Horseshit. Batman doesn't get down like this.
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Mar 3, 2016 19:32
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Norns posted:Horseshit. Batman doesn't get down like this. That is goddamn terrible even for DC. Jason willing to do what Batman can't is the absolute opposite of the reasoning Batman constantly rides other heros like Huntress for.
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Mar 3, 2016 20:40
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It just goes to show how awkward Jason's character and continued existence in the Bat-world is. Either they have to come up with weird rationales for his actions, or just ignore that his morals run completely counter to Batman's. Either way, it's weird and badly-written.
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Mar 3, 2016 20:57
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What if he was just saying that to get Damian to stop being a little bitch? Batman would probably do that.
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Mar 3, 2016 20:57
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Norns posted:Horseshit. Batman doesn't get down like this. Sure he does. He's just crouching. Batman doesn't sit.
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Mar 3, 2016 21:10
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Luchacabra posted:Sure he does. He sits all the time in Justice League now.
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Mar 3, 2016 21:21
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I can understand someone like Spider-man wondering if what Punisher does is necessary in the end. I can also understand Captain America begrudgingly allowing Wolverine on his team because being blind to other perspectives cost the Avengers dearly. But Batman? The ultimate control freak with the most unbreakable rule?
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Mar 3, 2016 21:40
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Is Red Hood really selling so well that it's worth it to DC to twist and contrive ways to stick Jason in the BatFam so much? I just don't get it.
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Mar 3, 2016 21:41
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Lurdiak posted:But Batman? The ultimate control freak with the most unbreakable rule? N52 Batman is nowhere the control freak the pre-Flashpoint version was and has a more flexible moral code. Travis343 posted:Is Red Hood really selling so well that it's worth it to DC to twist and contrive ways to stick Jason in the BatFam so much? I just don't get it. Is the opposite actually. Since the start of the N52 Jason has been a lot more subdued about his use of violence, most of the time he tries to talk things out, only killing when is obvious there's nothing he can do to change the other's mind.
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Mar 3, 2016 21:48
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You just think that because you mostly read stuff with Jason Todd in it, and he has a reality-bending field that makes Batman and the others ignore or forget that he's a shitbag. Batman's moral code is as inflexible as ever except when Jason Todd is around. In fact I can't think of a single meaningful difference between pre-Flashpoint Bruce and N52 Bruce.
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Mar 3, 2016 21:55
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Norns posted:He sits all the time in Justice League now. ty for properly gendering Batchair. Doc Hawkins posted:Please, Batchair may no longer have "man" in his name, but he still identifies as male, and a chair.
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Mar 3, 2016 21:57
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Dark_Tzitzimine posted:most of the time he tries to talk things out, only killing when is obvious there's nothing he can do to change the other's mind.
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Mar 3, 2016 22:01
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Travis343 posted:Is Red Hood really selling so well that it's worth it to DC to twist and contrive ways to stick Jason in the BatFam so much? I just don't get it.
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Mar 3, 2016 22:08
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Hnoestly, I think if you were going to have Jason as part of the Batfamily again, the msot obvious way would be for him to akin to the Green Hornet - posing as a criminal, but feeding information to the Batfamily. And not killing people - not every criminal in Gotham needs to rack up a bodycount. Hell, that could be a good rationalistion for his cover - racking up a bodycount just attracts the Bat's attention, so trying to avoid it is just good business sense. He, of all the Batfamily, would be the most comfortable going undercover. He's got a sense of the streets none of the others do. Also him & Bruce could have therapeutic fistfights every now & again to preserve his cover.
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Mar 3, 2016 22:35
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That was the One Year Later plot of Nightwing.
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Mar 3, 2016 22:43
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Dark_Tzitzimine posted:
No I agree with everyone else. This is possibly the dumbest scene ever in Batman history just for that line. How I wish I could get a contract with DC to write a book were Jason dies. And I make it part of my contract that he can't be brought back in anyway until I die or 30 years pass whatever is first. I would would do it in an anti climatic way too. Just have Black Mask cap him or something with no fanfare. Jason should not be tolerated by any hero in the DC universe. That he is endorsed is one of the low points of the entire DC universe for me right now. MonsterEnvy fucked around with this message at 23:43 on Mar 3, 2016 |
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Mar 3, 2016 23:39
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I've mentally disowned Jason ever since he came back
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Mar 4, 2016 00:28
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I hope this debate dies and never comes back, like Jason Todd should have. Frank Miller did an interview with The Hollywood Reporter. Some Batman-related quotes quote:One of the things that led you to create Dark Knight Returns was a series of muggings. What happened? There's some more there where he talks about Marvel and Daredevil and Elektra. Doctor Spaceman fucked around with this message at 01:56 on Mar 4, 2016 |
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Mar 4, 2016 01:50
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I'd love to see that Aronofsky script adapted for a miniseries. I mean, there's a rumor about letting Joel Schumacher get his unproduced third Batman movie out as a comic. Though I wanna see that too 
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Mar 4, 2016 06:15
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Bad movie ideas turned into comics is so great. I love Frank Miller's Robocop 2. It's like a master class in batshit crazy.
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Mar 4, 2016 06:16
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