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MonoAus posted:I'm still not clear on what the purpose of these fines are beyond appearing to do something about a perceived "problem" but not actually doing anything at all. I think you've got it, actually.
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Mar 9, 2016 06:01
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MonoAus posted:I'm still not clear on what the purpose of these fines are beyond appearing to do something about a perceived "problem" but not actually doing anything at all. No, I think you are perfectly clear. You are just assuming there must be something more to it, because surely there must be, but there isnt.
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Mar 9, 2016 06:05
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Pickled Tink posted:This isn't about economics. This is about victim blaming. This seems dangerous too though, it might work in the short term but having an unhappy underclass means as soon as a big enough uncontrollable external force slams into this system and pushes many into the underclass you'll end up with populist revolutionaries. And in the short term pushing people into desperation and hopeless situations seems like a great way to sow lone gunman and mad bomber situations, you can't rely on people to kill themselves quietly all the time.
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Mar 9, 2016 06:08
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Flannelette posted:This seems dangerous too though, it might work in the short term but having an unhappy underclass means as soon as a big enough uncontrollable external force slams into this system and pushes many into the underclass you'll end up with populist revolutionaries.
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Mar 9, 2016 06:15
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Lol why am I considering turning my Australian PR into an Australian citizenship. JEsus gently caress immi.gov.au has turned into border.gov.au
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Mar 9, 2016 06:20
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SynthOrange posted:Lol why am I considering turning my Australian PR into an Australian citizenship. 
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Mar 9, 2016 06:29
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Bogan King posted:I went to go mock Van Bad Ham but she's blocked me. I've literally never interacted with her or dropped criticism on her. I guess this is what change from within feels like. I mocked her once and I'm banned too :'(
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Mar 9, 2016 06:34
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SynthOrange posted:Lol why am I considering turning my Australian PR into an Australian citizenship. My PR lapsed in September. Never going back permanently again!
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Mar 9, 2016 06:36
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MonoAus posted:I'm still not clear on what the purpose of these fines are beyond appearing to do something about a perceived "problem" but not actually doing anything at all. The article said that there would be grounds for appeal, I imagine it wouldn't be any more/less difficult than reapplying. Cutting off someone's payments saves a lot more money than fining them 10%. When you get cut off for non-attendance it is usually treated like a clerical error. So if you ring up and say you forgot and reschedule it, they will fix it up. It isn't really an appeal, as the phone operators have some leeway to fix missed appointments. If you get a fined by the provider, the implication is that it isn't a clerical error and that you will have to go through the official appeals process. First you appeal to the Centrelink branch manager, and they will reject it because you missed the appointment. Then you appeal that, which means you get an independent assessor (who is typically on your side) and in a few months determine that the fine should be reversed. It will be more difficult than reapplying. The other purpose is a way to coerce clients into undertaking activities under the threat of a fine. I.e. do a lovely JSA run course, unpaid work trial etc. Tokamak fucked around with this message at 06:41 on Mar 9, 2016 |
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Mar 9, 2016 06:39
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SynthOrange posted:Lol why am I considering turning my Australian PR into an Australian citizenship. Change from within!
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Mar 9, 2016 07:12
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SynthOrange posted:Lol why am I considering turning my Australian PR into an Australian citizenship. one of us one of us
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Mar 9, 2016 07:24
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My alternative is to go back to the US. The one where half the country would honestly vote for Trump. Yeah I think I'm gonna take my chances and stay here where I get paid 3x what I used to for the same work and get healthcare for my MS, thanks.
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Mar 9, 2016 07:58
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MonoAus posted:Obviously I can't speak for everyone, all I can tell you in my personal experience. Nothing. Newstart doesn't pay enough to even count as an appearance fee. The idea that people wilfully subject themselves to the newstart lifestyle because it's enjoyable or even comfortable is complete bullshit peddled by dickheads like A Current Affair to boomers who need to be distracted from how entitled they are. It's a miserable existence and nobody actually wants it. If you want to crack down on welfare abuse, go after the one that Centrelink themselves say has more fraudulent claims than any other; the aged pension. The money saved from that will more than pay for the mythical dole bludger. Smegmatron fucked around with this message at 08:06 on Mar 9, 2016 |
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Mar 9, 2016 08:03
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Smegmatron posted:Nothing. What about improving the system so people actually want to go to their appointments?
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Mar 9, 2016 08:09
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the only good story i've ever heard about jsas or centrelink was avs' one about the old hippy who got put in charge of her, and then a week later he diedMonoAus posted:What about improving the system so people actually want to go to their appointments? you expect us to help the proles buddy?
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Mar 9, 2016 08:10
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MonoAus posted:What about improving the system so people actually want to go to their appointments? You asked what should happen if people miss their appointments, not how to reform the system. Showing up once a fortnight to prostrate yourself and dance for a pittance is a waste of everybody's time and they should give up on it. Nationalise seek.com.au and integrate it with Centrelink IMO. Cut out the 500 middle men in the equation.
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Mar 9, 2016 08:12
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SynthOrange posted:Lol why am I considering turning my Australian PR into an Australian citizenship. Yeah I just spent 12k on getting my PR last year. Maybe I should have gone hom.....   
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Mar 9, 2016 08:12
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HookShot posted:My PR lapsed in September. PR in medical terms means Per Rectum.
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Mar 9, 2016 08:18
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meteor9 posted:My alternative is to go back to the US. The one where half the country would honestly vote for Trump. Only half you reckon?
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Mar 9, 2016 08:18
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Tomberforce posted:Yeah I just spent 12k on getting my PR last year. Suicide is also a valid alternative. At least the snp runs my country.
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Mar 9, 2016 08:27
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MonoAus posted:What about improving the system so people actually want to go to their appointments? When I make a doctor's appointment I know I'm looking forward to a lollipop. Good system imo
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Mar 9, 2016 08:37
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Pickled Tink posted:I am required to go in twice per week to search for work for an hour. The consequences of this are plain: Sorry you had to take time out of your busy schedule of posting cartoons on the internet to attend a free service that's trying to help you jfc
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Mar 9, 2016 08:42
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Gets payments from the government, is annoyed he had to leave his house twice a week
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Mar 9, 2016 08:44
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Negligent posted:Sorry you had to take time out of your busy schedule of posting cartoons on the internet to attend a free service that's trying to help you lol if you think jsa's are there to help jobseekers. Even you aren't this dumb.
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Mar 9, 2016 08:52
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Yeah, there's no reason to disturb people. Getting a dude out of his house twice a week to interact with a human is silly.
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Mar 9, 2016 08:57
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Starshark posted:lol if you think jsa's are there to help jobseekers. Even you aren't this dumb. I'm sure someone will call me naive but I do think that JSAs are there to help jobseekers. They're just incredibly bad at what they do.
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Mar 9, 2016 09:00
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Negligent posted:Sorry you had to take time out of your busy schedule of posting cartoons on the internet to attend a free service that's trying to help you Free? The JSA network is paid for by the taxpayers. We're all just suggesting a great cost-cutting measure for the government to consider.
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Mar 9, 2016 09:00
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Negligent posted:Sorry you had to take time out of your busy schedule of posting cartoons on the internet to attend a free service that's trying to help you Newstart payments are below the poverty line. Attendance means further financial hardship. Further the service provided is lowest common denominator. If you are competent you learn nothing and gain nothing. It is time that could be better spent looking for work or developing other skills.
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Mar 9, 2016 09:01
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Negligent posted:Gets payments from the government, is annoyed he had to leave his house twice a week Going to JSA appointments would be all fine and dandy if they actually accomplished anything for you, I've been on Centrelink twice and both times the JSA have been utterly useless at helping me find a job. Each time I would show up to the appointment, get my name ticked off and they would ask for my form of applications done, and then they would make another appointment and that would basically be it. Absolutely nothing they did was geared to helping me find a job, it was just so they could tick off that they'd had an appointment with me and that was it. I'm lucky in that I'm white and don't look like a drug addict so they were inclined to just leave me alone and not make the situation worse for me. But being unemployed for a long period of time does gently caress with your self esteem hardcore and when you see these people viewing you as just something to tick off a list. You begin to wonder whether you'll ever find work again or whether you'll be a burden on your family for the rest of your life. So gently caress JSAs, they should be abolished or replaced with a government run organisation that trains people to help you find work at the very least.
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Mar 9, 2016 09:15
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My Jsa appointments last 5 minutes You still studyin You still applyin See you next fortnight
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Mar 9, 2016 09:17
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Just bring on basic income already. All crap JSA's would quickly fold as no one would be forced in to dealing with them, and you might actually end up with decent agencies who are actually well qualified at finding people suitable employment as those would be the only ones people would end up choosing to go to. See the free market can works with a healthy dose of socialism!
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Mar 9, 2016 09:19
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MonoAus posted:I'm sure someone will call me naive but I do think that JSAs are there to help jobseekers. They're just incredibly bad at what they do. I was unemployed for two months under the Howard government and the only thing the JSA said to me in that time was, 'Why haven't you got a job yet?' Not my idea of 'help'.
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Mar 9, 2016 09:21
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Hence the being 'incredibly bad at what they do' part of that. My experience with them was basically them telling me they probably can't help me much but I needed to keep coming back to tell them how my search was going.
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Mar 9, 2016 09:30
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MonoAus posted:Hence the being 'incredibly bad at what they do' part of that. You're just being a pollyanna about the whole thing, you can't for one second entertain the notion that the government has created an agency with no purpose but to gently caress people around. Well, believe it. It's here. It's the JSA.
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Mar 9, 2016 09:34
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Pickled Tink posted:I am required to go in twice per week to search for work for an hour. The consequences of this are plain: I'm going to preface this by acknowledging that although I have no experience with a JSA logic tells me they would be completely poo poo do deal with and little to do with good outcomes for the unemployed. (Why smart people like yourselves don't start your own outfit is beyond me, but I digress) Also, I agree with the majority here (and elsewhere) that the grinding poverty of poverty below the poverty line is beyond poo poo. However, if someone was to come in here cold (or this line was carried elsewhere) they would just think that a person saying things like this was simply a whining gently caress. Personally I could tick those boxes with poo poo public transport, crap technology and other things with the joy of dealing with it at least five days a week as work follows me home often. Yes granted, those people screaming, 'whining gently caress' also seem to forget they are eating. This isn't trying to be rude and I don't give a gently caress what you think of me personally but that griping probably isn't going to resonate. Basically not you Pickled Tink (as I know you have me on ignore) but some of you guys are going to have to come up with a plan and do it pretty loving quick. I've seen grinding poverty doubled down lately and I really don't want it here.
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Mar 9, 2016 09:37
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Starshark posted:You're just being a pollyanna about the whole thing  It's just my opinion.I certainly agree the government is incompetent, but I'm not so sure about intentionally malicious.
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Mar 9, 2016 09:39
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Graic Gabtar posted:Basically not you Pickled Tink (as I know you have me on ignore) but some of you guys are going to have to come up with a plan and do it pretty loving quick. I've seen grinding poverty doubled down lately and I really don't want it here. Basic income seems pretty popular, although it's untested and, at least at the moment, a political non-starter. The dole needs a serious bump, and I'd suggest making the JSA process competitive. Job seekers could choose to go to a JSA if they felt like they were getting value out of it or choose not to if they thought it was a waste of time. With all that money on offer some JSAs would pick up their game and actually help people to upskill and find jobs, and others would go out of business.
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Mar 9, 2016 09:43
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Some are actually worthwhile. I think the biggest thing the JSA I actually had did for me was that the first person I had--I went through three--was really good about testing how ready I was to actually look for a job. She tested my interview skills, proof-read my cover letter and resume (which were already pretty solid but needed some touch-ups), taught me actual job-searching techniques, all that. The second guy I had didn't do much of anything, though, and the woman that came after him only really stopped idling similarly when I said I was planning to move to Melbourne. It's possible for JSAs to do good, they're certainly in a position to. But the issue is that it's actually counterproductive for them to be good. Getting someone a job really quickly is great, but people who can do that would probably not need much help. For the rest, it's actually not worth the effort to do much because of how it's structured, it's far more profitable to just keep them there doing either nothing, or earning useless qualifications from quick courses (that the JSAs may or may not actually run). I noticed the woman who had my case kicked it into high gear when I told her I was planning a move, and I think it's most likely because, in the event that I did (and I was clearly getting way better results by making Melbourne searches) they'd get jack poo poo from me.
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Mar 9, 2016 09:46
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Pickled Tink posted:I am required to go in twice per week to search for work for an hour. The consequences of this are plain: Brisbane doesn't even have concession fares for low income, so I'm doing everything I can to avoid having to go on newstart after I graduate. Also, JSAs are actually incentivised to just let you idle on newstart for a while: if you're classed as "long term" unemployed, they get more money if they "help" you find work. Even if they don't actually do anything and you get a job on your own steam, they get money when you first get the job, and also if you stay in the job for a certain amount of time.
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Mar 9, 2016 09:51
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It should be easier to employ people for certain positions. I'd happily pay someone a couple of bucks to come round once a week & clean my house / mow my lawn, but screw worrying about super, liability etc. If I'm forced to pay the rates cleaning companies etc want I may as well do it myself.
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Mar 9, 2016 09:56
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