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People walking out of terrible jobs would be great though, think of all the opportunities to develop machines to replace them.
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Mar 9, 2016 14:42
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Jonah Galtberg posted:
I do enjoy that my comment on that telling the dude to take his head out of his rear end got me around 25 likes. Feels good. That's what I did at work for the dole.
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Mar 9, 2016 14:44
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JSA....noone has mentioned how the free market funding resulted in fraud recently? Was on 4 corners? Hundreds of millions of dollars? Grubs. When I did wfd I met an Iraqi Doctor, a lady who lost her young child the year before and was clearly grieving, a bunch of people with moderate disabilities who got put there, a really angry guy who had a painting business who had a bankrupt client and wanted to be out getting clients, a drug dealer who liked it and a bunch of dudes just out of jail. Even the thickest libertarian can see these people have different needs and this is not efficient. Also thanks for loving our flourishing social democracy .
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Mar 9, 2016 14:48
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dont worry guys the market forces (which we hate, boo free market) will make sure that cleaning toilets is sufficiently incentivised even if people have a choice to take basic income, and people who choose to clean toilets get the respect they deserve and everyone gets clean toilets and no one has to be poor! yay! never mind that guy who just literally said he would rather be unemployed than have a poo poo job.
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Mar 9, 2016 14:50
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LibertyCat posted:We already have a system that tries to reward people who do things society values that are in short supply; the market. Becoming a doctor is necessary and difficult, therefore pay is good. We have no shortage of people who can make hamburgers, therefore working at Maccas won't make you a millionaire. Having different levels of reward isn't the problem, though. The problem is that making hamburgers, no matter how unskilled, is still asked for as a task our society wants to see done. Those who accomplish the task for us deserve a place in the society they are serving. Not to be millionaires, just to be secure. You can't just write off a whole sector of society and use the fact that you only expected high-turnover teenagers to take the job (translation: this job is only suitable for people supported elsewhere, who can afford to be exploited until they bail for somewhere else) as an excuse to let them rot. Our attitudes towards working to live are the equivalent of Americans getting health insurance through their job instead of having anything like our Medicare.
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Mar 9, 2016 14:50
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Negligent posted:dont worry guys the market forces (which we hate, boo free market) will make sure that cleaning toilets is sufficiently incentivised even if people have a choice to take basic income, and people who choose to clean toilets get the respect they deserve and everyone gets clean toilets and no one has to be poor! yay! *cough* and volunteering *cough*
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Mar 9, 2016 14:53
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Bifauxnen posted:*cough* and volunteering *cough* Nah nahnah, there's no point in trying to correct Neg.
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Mar 9, 2016 14:54
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Bifauxnen posted:*cough* and volunteering *cough* while everyone is living off basic income and volunteering to save the whales and whatevs, who is going to clean the toilets in your unicorn society
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Mar 9, 2016 14:57
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Negligent posted:dont worry guys the market forces (which we hate, boo free market) will make sure that cleaning toilets is sufficiently incentivised even if people have a choice to take basic income, and people who choose to clean toilets get the respect they deserve and everyone gets clean toilets and no one has to be poor! yay! Do you not understand how markets work? If the cost of cleaning toilets goes up, which it probably would, people aren't just going to stop cleaning them. This isn't any different from people moving to the cities during the industrial revolution. The price of rural labour went up, which encouraged technological development, which gave people in the cities more work and cheaper food. A basic income just accelerates the process.
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Mar 9, 2016 14:59
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Negligent posted:dont worry guys the market forces (which we hate, boo free market) will make sure that cleaning toilets is sufficiently incentivised even if people have a choice to take basic income, and people who choose to clean toilets get the respect they deserve and everyone gets clean toilets and no one has to be poor! yay! You get that noone hates markets (free markets don't exist boo) ? Most people clean their toilets regularly and that cleaning other peoples toilets like a lot of jobs will get people extra income? Probably equal pay to things like tossmaster who makes bets on all our wealth and productivity.
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Mar 9, 2016 15:02
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Negligent posted:while everyone is living off basic income and volunteering to save the whales and whatevs, who is going to clean the toilets in your unicorn society If only society had more reasonable, down-to-earth people like you, Negligent. But as you know, most of our society shares the same utopian greenie dreams as Auspol, and there is no sizeable segment of society that sees such pursuits as fanciful and foolish or laughable, as you do. Everyone will be content to pursue their dreams while running on the basic income money alone. No one will ever feel tempted for even a little more pocket money. No one currently living in this 24/7 sharing economy will be able to further stomach the idea of part-time or casual work, not even when it poses no administrative burden or threat to their existing benefits.
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Mar 9, 2016 15:03
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Negligent posted:while everyone is living off basic income and volunteering to save the whales and whatevs, who is going to clean the toilets in your unicorn society you're really concerned about janitorial duty, it's nice to see someone actually acknowledge their existence for the all the work they do and we take for granted
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Mar 9, 2016 15:03
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open24hours posted:Do you not understand how markets work? If the cost of cleaning toilets goes up, which it probably would, people aren't just going to stop cleaning them. This isn't any different from people moving to the cities during the industrial revolution. The price of rural labour went up, which encouraged technological development, which gave people in the cities more work and cheaper food. A basic income just accelerates the process. well you see, tired of wading in their own filth, society
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Mar 9, 2016 15:04
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sausage eyes posted:You get that noone hates markets (free markets don't exist boo) ? Most people clean their toilets regularly and that cleaning other peoples toilets like a lot of jobs will get people extra income? Probably equal pay to things like tossmaster who makes bets on all our wealth and productivity. well you see, tired of wading in their own filth, society
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Mar 9, 2016 15:05
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How many people do you think actually want to make a career out of saving the whales?
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Mar 9, 2016 15:06
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Bifauxnen posted:If only society had more reasonable, down-to-earth people like you, Negligent. But as you know, most of our society shares the same utopian greenie dreams as Auspol, and there is no sizeable segment of society that sees such pursuits as fanciful and foolish or laughable, as you do. are they getting part time and casual work cleaning the toilets, because as i understand it, that is something that currently contributes to cleaning toilets being a poo poo job (that and the actual poo poo)
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Mar 9, 2016 15:07
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Negligent posted:while everyone is living off basic income and volunteering to save the whales and whatevs, who is going to clean the toilets in your unicorn society You should go back and read a good microeconomics for guys who really want a prostate massage but do not have the confidence to ask for one book....there are a LOT of them.
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Mar 9, 2016 15:08
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LibertyCat posted:We already have a system that tries to reward people who do things society values that are in short supply; the market. Becoming a doctor is necessary and difficult, therefore pay is good. We have no shortage of people who can make hamburgers, therefore working at Maccas won't make you a millionaire.
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Mar 9, 2016 15:09
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open24hours posted:How many people do you think actually want to make a career out of saving the whales? If we found a way to put whale savings and toilet cleaning together you would have no shortage of volunteers
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Mar 9, 2016 15:09
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open24hours posted:How many people do you think actually want to make a career out of saving the whales? if that number is larger than the number that wants to make a career cleaning toilets then sanitation in the basic income economy is looking a bit dicey
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Mar 9, 2016 15:10
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I probably wouldn't even bother using the toilet if we had basic income. Just poo poo everywhere and buy new stuff with my sweet sweet subsistence level wage.
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Mar 9, 2016 15:13
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I'm looking at this all wrong, I have to adopt the special kind of thinking that allows people to believe in a world of basic income. No one would even need to clean the toilets. Because, would you make a mess in the toilet if you a) greatly respected the janitor as a person who does a useful and meaningful job and b) knew she made more money than you, because toilet cleaning is an in-demand occupation due to labour competition from the voluntary sector
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Mar 9, 2016 15:16
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Would you rather a) live in a world with basic income and filthy toilets, or b) a world with extremely clean toilets but you get the guillotine if you lose your job?
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Mar 9, 2016 15:21
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To be fair having my meaningless life ended early would be worth it to poo poo on a golden throne
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Mar 9, 2016 15:23
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tbh, I'd go back to cleaning toilets in a heartbeat I've been unemployed so long, unfortunately I'm stuck in JSA hell right now and want to get any work through them because they do the searching for me (anxiety means i have problems with making phone calls). JSAs work ok for me because I'm looking specifically for super lovely part time work and due to my pension status they get way more money getting me jobs. I've tried to find full time work through them before and its an exercise in futility. They have also provided me with things like a phone, myki and clothes before for an interview so you are entitled to a little bit if you ask super nicely (may vary between jsas and centrelink payouts).
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Mar 9, 2016 15:24
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Negligent posted:dont worry guys the market forces (which we hate, boo free market) will make sure that cleaning toilets is sufficiently incentivised even if people have a choice to take basic income, and people who choose to clean toilets get the respect they deserve and everyone gets clean toilets and no one has to be poor! yay! You might be forced to clean after yourself. But nah you won't because people will go through hell to earn the ability stick their fingers into random people butts because the pay is good and the job is secure (it's doctors, I'm talking about doctors). The market will find the price it takes to get people to scrub toilets don't worry.
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Mar 9, 2016 15:44
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An income allowing people who hate doing any sort of work whatsoever to sponge off the rest of society already exists, it's called the welfare state. I'm not trying to buy in to the conservative meme that there are millions of people bludging off Centrelink - if you reject this idea of masses of welfare cheats for the sensible reasons that the vast majority of people a) like to engage in some sort of productive activity or b) find it humiliating to be the poorest person in the community a basic income doesn't change these disincentives.
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Mar 9, 2016 16:40
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LibertyCat posted:
Seems alright to me. An enormous amount of good can emerge from people tinkering with their hobbies and passions.
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Mar 9, 2016 18:29
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LibertyCat posted:This is an incredibly depressing outlook on life, and I'm sorry you feel this way. Numerous pointless conditions, little to no sympathy, empty meaningless busywork, finance drain, serious loss of your ability to independently schedule your own life, constant vilification, highly patronising (and useless) JSA operated training courses, constant implied threats against your continuing ability to draw payments, and to cap it all off everyone assumes it is your own damned fault. They all add up to major sources of depression and anxiety.
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Mar 9, 2016 18:55
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I know nothing about Auspol so bear with me here, I've been following some of the events since Abbott was ousted and I have a couple questions. Why do you think Turnbull is so anti-gay? I was under the impression that he was more moderate than Abbott but he seems just as bad if not worse with the anti-bullying stuff. He seems almost as committed to fighting a losing battle on this issue as US Republicans are. Also, how does the LGBT community feel about having such a person attend Mardi Gras? If an anti-gay politician attended pride somewhere here in the US it would not end well, they generally avoid doing so.
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Mar 9, 2016 19:28
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Australia is great. I literally can't go do my shopping today because the road to town is on fire. Well the bush around the road is on fire, haven't got close enough to see if the tar is burning. Time to go fishing so I have food. Basic income doesn't put out bush fires so it's a waste of time. Check mate Greenies.
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Mar 9, 2016 20:15
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Bogan King posted:Basic income doesn't put out bush fires so it's a waste of time. Check mate Greenies. I guess you haven't heard of the CFA.
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Mar 9, 2016 21:28
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The funniest part of all of this is that Negligent's gripe boils down to "why would anyone do <bad job> if there is a system in place that redresses the serious power imbalance which rigs the market in favour of employers? Society would collapse under the weight of people having the freedom to choose what do do with their time!"
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Mar 9, 2016 22:24
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I'd do poo poo jobs. I applied for a job as a fish gutter a week or so ago. Not being fully occupied with work or study is actually really boring.
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Mar 9, 2016 22:29
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Had I a basic income, I would still continue to work but I would certainly not be doing 60 hours a week between work and travel. I would have the freedom and capacity to either work part time, or find something closer to home. As it stands I'm doing a well paying job that consumes the majority of my time when I'd rather use that time to assist my partner in developing our children, because they have needs and it's difficult for one person to do it alone. I would be better rested because I'd no longer be getting up at the crack of dawn 6 days out of 7, just so I can catch a bus, train and tram in that order just to get to my employer. By the standards of most of auspol, I'm a well paid professional, and I still think basic income is a damned good idea, if an economy is defined by the movement of money, providing it to the poor means it's going to be spent, which means your economy grows and everyone gets a share of the pie. If you give it to the rich, it goes to investments which make money that doesn't get spent, it gets reinvested instead and no one benefits.
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Mar 9, 2016 22:30
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https://twitter.com/MarkDiStef/status/707668310330974209
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Mar 9, 2016 22:30
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I would pay a basic income to never see fdotm again
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Mar 9, 2016 22:31
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Negligent posted:while everyone is living off basic income and volunteering to save the whales and whatevs, who is going to clean the toilets in your unicorn society Look this is where I'll bite. It's not just dumb eco volunteering and poo poo, but can also mean the provision of mental health services to disadvantaged youth (which otherwise may find it difficult to seek help). As a psychology student, I can absolutely do this kind of volunteering but either a) the pay is crap because it's not about the money or b)they can't pay you. A real life example is behavioural therapists for kids with ASD, normally parents wouldn't be able to access therapy for them but student therapists can basically do it for the fraction of the cost.
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Mar 9, 2016 22:32
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In fairness, I loving loathe Windsor for what he did to the NBN and I hate that nobody ever holds him to account for it. Almost worth it to see Barnaby and Newscorp cry though.
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Mar 9, 2016 22:34
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Recoome posted:Look this is where I'll bite. It's not just dumb eco volunteering and poo poo, but can also mean the provision of mental health services to disadvantaged youth (which otherwise may find it difficult to seek help). As a psychology student, I can absolutely do this kind of volunteering but either a) the pay is crap because it's not about the money or b)they can't pay you. A real life example is behavioural therapists for kids with ASD, normally parents wouldn't be able to access therapy for them but student therapists can basically do it for the fraction of the cost. Nvm tithin fucked around with this message at 06:14 on Mar 10, 2016 |
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Mar 9, 2016 22:40
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