|
the trump tutelage posted:Joe doesn't have an economic platform. Joe has been inculcated against seditious notions of solidarity; such sentiments were beaten out of his father and grandfather during the Red Scare and feelgood know-nothingism under Reagan after Ford's dour years. Joe likes Donald Trump because The Donald speaks in a language he understands. Trump says things Joe's longed to hear. Trump says that, not only are there are easily identifiable problems like Illegal Immigration, but that Free Trade is destroying American livelihoods. Trump isn't promising to seduce Job Creators, he's threatening to circle the wagons and demand contrition. Trump is saying we should live out the kick rear end & take names fantasy -- if ISIS is the new Hitler then why aren't we fighting it the same way? Trump is empowering people who feel powerless, regardless of their relative position on the oppression ladder, and there is nobody on the Left who can compete. That's a problem with the Left, not with Trump, and not with his white working class supporters. This is the big problem for the elites in both parties, you cannot win over voters by thumbing your nose at them and calling them a bunch of idiots or bigots. The only option is to adapt and find a way to offer a platform that appeals to them. It's possible for someone other than Donald Trump to do this they just have to stop sucking up to the interests of the economic elite so blatantly and be willing to adopt a more populist message.
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2016 05:12
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 8, 2024 00:55 |
|
|
The unfortunate reality is that The Left no longer exists, the people you were talking to Skinner are in it for the cultural clique. Like hearing TTT blame the left is stunning, since the left in the US is a massive crater in the ground, as has been for a while. Yes, how did this vacuum fail so much? How did this wasteland fail to fruit? Why aren't whites being persuaded by what their fathers shot and killed? It's a real mystery. Maybe the wrong words were being used? Oh, but never mind that, all of today's problems are the result of Cultural Marxism Something Something. Time to vote Trump, he'll kill that PC culture dead. Oh but how could I forget, the left is supposed to be running everything! And as evidence, here is a picture of some nobs in fluro hair talking how radical they are for changing their Facebook avs. Yeah, they're a real political force alright, I can see why everyone is intimidated by them. Time to get angry. It's about ethics in slacktivism, you see. So I guess there is your answer: Right wing populism, because it's the only game in town. Still, there's got to be another answer. rudatron fucked around with this message at 05:23 on Mar 12, 2016 |
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2016 05:18
|
|
|
You're right about the American Left. It's dead and gone. I feel about it the way I'm sure Christ's hipster followers felt when they saw his divine corpse nailed bloody to a cross. Time to vote Trump, he's the albatross around America's neck.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2016 05:26
|
|
|
It doesn't accomplish anything. It doesn't. Sorry. It doesn't. Some dipshit crashing a political rally and holding a placard doesn't do poo poo. It doesn't change anyone's mind, it doesn't do anything but release anger. Want things to change? Write music, become a journalist, start a business, run for office, campaign door to door for political candidates, etc, etc. There's a million things these people could have done that would be far more effective than what I saw last night. Congrats you crashed a rally and got in fights with a bunch of assholes. Does it solve the wealth gap? Does it solve any sort of problems? loving NO. Also congrats on giving Donald Trump more loving free publicity you poo poo heads. Don't be a useful idiot for someone else. Be your own person and be the change. I know this all sounds cliched as hell, but any sort of american who's ever done anything significant? Did it this way.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2016 05:26
|
|
|
FuzzySkinner posted:Want things to change? Write music, become a journalist, start a business, run for office, campaign door to door for political candidates, etc, etc. There's a million things these people could have done that would be far more effective than what I saw last night. A riot is the language of the people too stupid to listen to something awful forum poster FuzzySkinner.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2016 07:15
|
|
|
GladRagKraken posted:Mmm yes why won't those people do these things that require higher education, money, political enfranchisement, or if nothing else musical talent? Clearly you know more about the best way for them to make their voices heard in their particular circumstances than they do. so what did it accomplish exactly? You know what I'm seeing via quick twitter search amongst TCOT types? Right Wingers flipping their vote towards Trump over someone like Ted Cruz because they now see him as a sympathetic figure. They've succeeded in uniting the right wing behind Trump. Meanwhile we still have the words "SHILLARY" and "BERNIE BROS" tossed around by members of our movement. Whomever described the modern progressive movement as a "circular firing squad" is dead on. quote:Frank LuntzVerified account Frank loving Luntz nailed it. FuzzySkinner fucked around with this message at 07:43 on Mar 12, 2016 |
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2016 07:38
|
|
|
FuzzySkinner posted:so what did it accomplish exactly? Yes, I'm sure your anecdotal twitter experiences are perfectly true.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2016 08:08
|
|
|
Off-topic, but in the middle of a rather racist area, in the foyer of a Kroger, I saw a girl scout troop peddling cookies. In a place chock full of TRUMP signs, where I have seen open carry idiots do their thing on several occasions, I saw this- a Muslim girl scout troop with headscarves smiling and doing the most American thing in the world. If you want to stop extreme bigotry, more of that might do it. Otherwise, calling the people who's votes you want bigoted troglodytes is just going to drive them further towards a leader who gives them validation. When cultural left wingers scold middle America for having bad taste, for being philistine, for shopping at the wrong stores- this primes these people to not listen even harder. It might be too late, I'm not sure this groundswell of anger ends well for anyone. I have a feeling Trump might do better in a general than you'd expect- there's a whole lot of secret racists out there.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2016 14:49
|
|
|
FuzzySkinner posted:so what did it accomplish exactly? 4-5 hours of dedicated Trump coverage on TV, and for the people planning to attend that rally, their support is now going to be unshakeable. It remains to be seen if these protests can be escalated into something like the 1968 riots that helped deliver Nixon the presidency. If I were Trump I would deliberately try to enter hostile areas to provoke this sort of response.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2016 16:08
|
|
|
Jarmak posted:You actually think the environment these people grew up and live in is telling them not to be racist, or perhaps more accurately, that their opinions even count as racist? I am a product of this environment in a Northern industrial setting. My dad was a paramedic, mom was a nurse. Overnight shifts, hand me down clothes, etc Just like all the other kids in my neighborhood, a lot (but not all) who grew up to be racist jabronis. They thought learning was, to put a fine point on it, 'gay'. No difference in family resources. Yet I knew the difference from racist and not racist at an early age. They go out of their way to pretend they're Archie Bunker, in fact even the guys with trust funds and dads who are lawyers do this too. The whole spiel that the Drumpf Tutelage keeps writing, that's a pose. That's not a reality. They want to be that guy and they know the difference, they just really like the idea of being Archie Bunker. e: this to me explains the attitude of a particular type of white rear end in a top hat (Walker country in WI, Boston, Staten Island, white South Side in Chicago, white Philly). West Virginia/ rural racist jabroni I can see being a different matter. menino fucked around with this message at 16:46 on Mar 12, 2016 |
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2016 16:41
|
|
|
Whitecloak posted:Off-topic, but in the middle of a rather racist area, in the foyer of a Kroger, I saw a girl scout troop peddling cookies. In a place chock full of TRUMP signs, where I have seen open carry idiots do their thing on several occasions, I saw this- a Muslim girl scout troop with headscarves smiling and doing the most American thing in the world. What is this? Optimism? Positivity? Enough of this, foul tempter, we do not truck with these things here! Nah but the most American thing I can think of is that during Ramadan there are ice cream trucks that drive around the Muslim-heavy neighborhoods of Dearborn at 1 am because that's when everyone is off the fast. Got a strict religious thing that looks a little weird to the uninitiated? Great, and while you're at it why don't you take this opportunity to buy something...  
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2016 18:05
|
|
|
FuzzySkinner posted:so what did it accomplish exactly? Frank Luntz uses his powers for evil, but he does know his poo poo.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2016 18:19
|
|
|
menino posted:
Nah. That's my people, and they're the same. Our schools are adequate, the farms are small (as in, this isn't the Mid-west) and the racism/homophobia is a style choice. People might be working class and some even poor, but nothing like Appellachian poor (ie folks who have an excuse for being uneducated and having few to no interactions with gay or black folks).
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2016 18:37
|
|
|
menino posted:I am a product of this environment in a Northern industrial setting. My dad was a paramedic, mom was a nurse. Overnight shifts, hand me down clothes, etc Just like all the other kids in my neighborhood, a lot (but not all) who grew up to be racist jabronis. They thought learning was, to put a fine point on it, 'gay'. No difference in family resources. Yet I knew the difference from racist and not racist at an early age. They go out of their way to pretend they're Archie Bunker, in fact even the guys with trust funds and dads who are lawyers do this too. That sounds closer to where I'm from and not at all what we're talking about.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2016 18:51
|
|
|
Someone needs to make a fictional series about what life is like being a guard on the Trump border wall.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2016 19:20
|
|
|
Hard for me to be sympathetic to the white working class when they've consistently voted to bust their own standard of living if it means spiting blacks as well. See clinton's welfare reform, which built off the welfare queen mythos of the reagan 80s as well as their rejection of unions as women and minorities continue to make up a greater and greater share of the union workforce.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2016 19:25
|
|
Peven Stan posted:Hard for me to be sympathetic to the white working class when they've consistently voted to bust their own standard of living if it means spiting blacks as well. See clinton's welfare reform, which built off the welfare queen mythos of the reagan 80s as well as their rejection of unions as women and minorities continue to make up a greater and greater share of the union workforce. Modern leftism is an identity, not a political program. I hope this post made you feel better than the white trash shitlords. Your politics will never come to pass because you've decided to insult half the country.
|
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2016 19:54
|
|
|
How effective would Lenin have been if he dismissed and insulted the peasants as reactionary crypto-Tsarists with backwards beliefs?
|
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2016 19:55
|
|
|
Peven Stan posted:Hard for me to be sympathetic to the white working class when they've consistently voted to bust their own standard of living if it means spiting blacks as well. See clinton's welfare reform, which built off the welfare queen mythos of the reagan 80s as well as their rejection of unions as women and minorities continue to make up a greater and greater share of the union workforce. Populism, both right and left wing, is on the rise because people are pissed that being white and american isn't a guarantee that you can coast to a comfortable (upper) middle class lifestyle.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2016 19:58
|
|
Xae posted:Populism, both right and left wing, is on the rise because people are pissed that being white and american isn't a guarantee that you can coast to a comfortable (upper) middle class lifestyle. Yes economic concerns are fundamentally racist in nature good job you figured it out.
|
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2016 20:01
|
|
|
rakovsky maybe posted:Yes economic concerns are fundamentally racist in nature good job you figured it out. The primary "economic concern" I see from leftwing populists is that they are having problems paying off their student loans, buying a 'nice' house and other upper middle class problems. These are dramatically different than the economic concerns of minority communities.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2016 20:03
|
|
|
The protests last night had the exact opposite effect these people intended it to have. Instead of shutting down Trump from speaking? They gave him an even bigger audience on cable TV. (Which he's already saturated the market on) Instead of trying to encourage people to not vote for him in the primaries? They likely galvanized the right wing in this country to support him even more. Instead of showing that trump supporter's are extremists? It showed various leftist groups as extremists. (Hammer and Sickle flag, etc). He got to make a stump speech about how divided the country is, how it's sad people are struggling from day to day in this day and age...all while images of people fighting and angry protesters were flashed on screen. He couldn't have been more loving Nixon-like if he tried. Seriously that's a literal scene in Oliver Stone's movie about the man. You seriously couldn't have PAID for a better campaign ad. Yet again, let me stress that on tuesday? It's super tuesday.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2016 20:11
|
|
|
Xae posted:The primary "economic concern" I see from leftwing populists is that they are having problems paying off their student loans, buying a 'nice' house and other upper middle class problems. Indeed, I believe Bernie actually confirmed that that whites are incapable of being poor: quote:“When you’re white, you don’t know what it’s like to be living in a ghetto. You don’t know what it’s like to be poor. You don’t know what it’s like to be hassled when you walk down the street or you get dragged out of a car.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2016 20:18
|
|
Xae posted:The primary "economic concern" I see from leftwing populists is that they are having problems paying off their student loans, buying a 'nice' house and other upper middle class problems. This is the finally victory of identitarianism over socialism then. The problem with tribal politics in America is white people are the largest tribe. If economic safety is zero-sum no white person is going to give up theirs so a minority can have more. Maybe it's sad, but it's also perfectly understandable. Trump is just reaping what two decades of identity politics have sown: turns out white identity is strong and scary.
|
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2016 20:25
|
|
|
Socialism is identity politics.
|
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2016 20:27
|
|
Effectronica posted:Socialism is identity politics. The goal of feminism is not to eliminate gender. The goal of anti-racism is not to eliminate race. The goal of socialism is to eliminate class. It is qualitatively different from identity politics.
|
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2016 20:32
|
|
|
FuzzySkinner posted:The protests last night had the exact opposite effect these people intended it to have. pretty much. the left shot itself in the foot again. sure it should have worked. but then you see a bunch of whiny looking hipsters screaming with a hammer and sinkle flag and scream about how ignorant poor whites need a bullet. they arnt getting the vote. then again i dont blame the protesters at all. trump is awful bigoted prick. Dapper_Swindler fucked around with this message at 20:39 on Mar 12, 2016 |
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2016 20:35
|
|
rakovsky maybe posted:The goal of feminism is not to eliminate gender. I'm glad that you're succinct about your desire to make everyone white, male, and straight, but it's only in the intellectual laundry room of "alt-left" that "identity politics" is defined, not as emphasizing a politics based on the use of shared identities to achieve concrete goals, such as both Marxian and feminist notions of building consciousness, but on some hugger-mugger hovering just on the edge of comprehensibility, immune to attack through its very insipidness.
|
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2016 20:37
|
|
|
Jarmak posted:That sounds closer to where I'm from and not at all what we're talking about. Some-college whites who work in trades and police/firefighter unions? Sounds like primo Trump demographic
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2016 20:38
|
|
Effectronica posted:I'm glad that you're succinct about your desire to make everyone white, male, and straight, but it's only in the intellectual laundry room of "alt-left" that "identity politics" is defined, not as emphasizing a politics based on the use of shared identities to achieve concrete goals, such as both Marxian and feminist notions of building consciousness, but on some hugger-mugger hovering just on the edge of comprehensibility, immune to attack through its very insipidness. This is the way a dumb person thinks a smart person would post. The modern day millet system of idpol is breaking down completely. There are simply too many remaining white people for them not to defend their shrinking privileges. Take away people's economic security and they cling to the only things they have. There's no reason a poor white guy with an alternative high school education and rap sheet for drug charges should feel any solidarity with upper-middle class Ivy League educated black activists, and arguing that they should is absurd.
|
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2016 20:46
|
|
|
FuzzySkinner posted:The protests last night had the exact opposite effect these people intended it to have. Trump's negatives have him boxed in. He's not gaining voters through added air time, he's got zero marginal revenue left.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2016 20:50
|
|
|
National Review has finally resorted to a blatant "gently caress you" to all of the dumb plebes who refuse to be swayed by their writings. https://www.nationalreview.com/nrd/articles/432569/father-f-hrer quote:It is also immoral. It is immoral because it perpetuates a lie: that the white working class that finds itself attracted to Trump has been victimized by outside forces. It hasn’t. The white middle class may like the idea of Trump as a giant pulsing humanoid middle finger held up in the face of the Cathedral, they may sing hymns to Trump the destroyer and whisper darkly about “globalists” and — odious, stupid term — “the Establishment,” but nobody did this to them.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2016 20:51
|
|
|
I feel Trump could gain in his party by saying the attacks are less on him and more on the party itself, but that would only hurt him more in the general
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2016 20:52
|
|
rakovsky maybe posted:This is the way a dumb person thinks a smart person would post. Why did you leave off the colon at the end of the first sentence? I mean, wow, I read "the modern day millet system of idpol" and I could feel my eyes start to shut down in response. What's worse, rather than continue on this idiotic theme, the post itself is actually a near-fractal of incoherence. Not only do the individual sentences prove to be blather on examination, they aren't even consistent forms of blather, and make less sense when put together. This is quite an accomplishment from a technical perspective, but for the purpose of discussion and the mother loving discourse, having a post that comes down to: "White genocide, and nothing else, will solve the problem of social progress. People in times of economic hardship are small-minded. The only possible socialism is Khmer-Rouge style." or at least is too incoherent to come out as anything else, is pointless.
|
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2016 20:55
|
|
|
MaxxBot posted:National Review has finally resorted to a blatant "gently caress you" to all of the dumb plebes who refuse to be swayed by their writings. In one respect, this is boilerplate awful NRO horseshit peddling white respectability politics. But in some respects this article dances around the truth, but can't get there because it's NRO. When you get whipped, as the working people in the country have, and you turn around and look for a weaker group to whip in turn rather than seeking common cause, then those ppl can go gently caress themselves. Sucks about NAFTA, sucks about austerity, stupid gun laws, etc. Being white and working class can be really lovely because nobody in the public eye has even the slightest pretense of compassion for you. But at least know who you should be focusing your anger on and don't feel the need to be such a spiteful authoritarian poo poo against minorities, gays, etc. You don't need a college degree to understand how power is wielded in this country.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2016 21:00
|
|
Effectronica posted:Why did you leave off the colon at the end of the first sentence? I mean, wow, I read "the modern day millet system of idpol" and I could feel my eyes start to shut down in response. What's worse, rather than continue on this idiotic theme, the post itself is actually a near-fractal of incoherence. Not only do the individual sentences prove to be blather on examination, they aren't even consistent forms of blather, and make less sense when put together. This is quite an accomplishment from a technical perspective, but for the purpose of discussion and the mother loving discourse, having a post that comes down to: Your two responses so far have been nothing but strange digressions on posting style, race-baiting and redbaiting. Not interested. MaxxBot posted:National Review has finally resorted to a blatant "gently caress you" to all of the dumb plebes who refuse to be swayed by their writings. If National Review could be honest with themselves they would realize that the reasonable, intellectual conservatives they aspire to be are now in control of the Democratic Party. They could easily rebrand as the Democratic right. Every sensible policy position the Republicans once had has been entirely coopted, all that's left is the hollowed out husk which is quickly being filled with Trumpism.
|
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2016 21:26
|
|
rakovsky maybe posted:Your two responses so far have been nothing but strange digressions on posting style, race-baiting and redbaiting. Not interested. Oh, well, if it's "posting style", then that certainly makes up for the post being a thin slurry of regurgitated things you read in blogs. I guess I'm going to make all my posts using my own inane cipher for English that will render them, according to me, perfectly on-topic while keeping them proof against anyone's ever figuring out what they ever actually say. That'd be a significant improvement on demanding that people first accept all of your axioms and propositions before you'll deign to read their posts. Here, let me do all the heavy lifting: Lay out your definition of identity politics so that socialism is not part of it, but also so that the statements that feminism/anti-racism are bad because they don't attempt to make us all male/white are false. Because as things stand, only people immersed in the effluent aura of whatever-the-hell-you-call-your-movement can actually understand your posts enough to have a discussion. Alternately, admit that you only wish to posture and refuse to attempt to make your statements more clear because you're not interested in actual interaction, whatever.
|
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2016 21:43
|
|
|
Peven Stan posted:Hard for me to be sympathetic to the white working class when they've consistently voted to bust their own standard of living if it means spiting blacks as well. See clinton's welfare reform, which built off the welfare queen mythos of the reagan 80s as well as their rejection of unions as women and minorities continue to make up a greater and greater share of the union workforce. The exact same thing has happened in every first world country and most spectacularly in the former Soviet Union. It has nothing to do with the racial politics of the US and Social Democrats like Sanders are completely impotent to stop it (see Europe) despite the whining in this thread about how voting against Sanders is voting against their interests.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2016 21:45
|
|
|
rakovsky maybe posted:If National Review could be honest with themselves they would realize that the reasonable, intellectual conservatives they aspire to be are now in control of the Democratic Party. They could easily rebrand as the Democratic right. Every sensible policy position the Republicans once had has been entirely coopted, all that's left is the hollowed out husk which is quickly being filled with Trumpism. There's nothing particularly reasonable or intellectual about that piece. It's just more bootstraps, but this time aimed at the white working class because suddenly they're the enemies of the GOP establishment rather than the base. People from failed blue collar communities aren't going to just up and build new lives en masse, and even if they could we wouldn't have some glut of middle class jobs for them to fill anyway. Pretending that lovely, dying communities are entirely to blame for their misfortunes is awful, even if the people living in those communities are also terrible.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2016 22:05
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 8, 2024 00:55 |
|
Paradoxish posted:There's nothing particularly reasonable or intellectual about that piece. It's just more bootstraps, but this time aimed at the white working class because suddenly they're the enemies of the GOP establishment rather than the base. People from failed blue collar communities aren't going to just up and build new lives en masse, and even if they could we wouldn't have some glut of middle class jobs for them to fill anyway. Pretending that lovely, dying communities are entirely to blame for their misfortunes is awful, even if the people living in those communities are also terrible. Oh I agree, and that article is particularly terrible. But with a little tweaking National Review could easily fit into the "reasonable" Democratic right of welfare reform, imperial overreach and healthcare mandates. They just won't due to a tribal affiliation with a party name.
|
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2016 22:13
|
|