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nerdz posted:I also want to believe that after getting what they want out of this (Dilma out, Lula jailed, PT broken), the opposition won't be able to simply deescalate the civil unrest unless they do a better job themselves. Also I hope that since people consider the Federal Police and MP the heroes of this protest, I hope any attempt at neutering either will fail due to unpopularity, which means we'll see people from all sides getting arrested and investigated. I'm real doubtful of that, since it seems members of the Judiciary don't seem to care as much if the corrupt people are defenders of the establishment than otherwise (and seeing how much Lula bent over backwards to it in his government, that's saying something). Aécio was also cited on Delcídio's statement, yet he wasn't dragged to an airport by hundreds of cops. Cunha makes Lula look like a saint and should be in chains right now, yet the motherfucker is still leading Congress and pushing impeachment forward like it ain't no thing. The financial irregularitires in the FHC mistress story seems to be have been swept under the rug by the media at this point. gently caress, the São Paulo MP seems totally cool with the members of the state government wasting and stealing subway money (not to mention food from children in public schools), but God forbid if Haddad makes a loving bike lane. Honestly, I don't even like the narrative of a persecution against the PT, since everything indicates they are a bunch of corrupt assholes. But there seems to be a selective blindness to these operations. The Unnamed One fucked around with this message at 16:44 on Mar 14, 2016 |
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Mar 14, 2016 16:39
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Not that different? 57% making under 5 times the minimum wage versus 31% is a huge difference. Likewise, 49% non white versus 23% non-white makes a huge difference. Also, you misreported the data about yesterday's protest: http://www1.folha.uol.com.br/poder/2016/03/1749640-protesto-cresce-mas-manifestante-mantem-perfil-de-alta-renda.shtml 24% make between 10 and 20 times the minimum wage, 11% between 20 and 50 times, and 2% more than 50 times. (For non- Brazilians, the average monthly income for Brazil is about 1 and a half times the minimum wage, and the top 10% are those who make a little more than 5 times the minimum wage). A few other surveys from yesterday: http://epocanegocios.globo.com/Info...r-r-79-mil.html For the protesters yesterday, Alckmin, Serra and Aecio are the most trusted politicians in Brazil (which should put to rest the notion that this wasn't a largely pro-PSDB crowd), 71% believe that racial quotas in universities increase racism, 60% believe that Bolsa Familia "only finances lazy people," 64% believe that PT is instituting a communist regime in Brazil.
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Mar 14, 2016 16:47
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Both had a majority of people within the 5-20 minimum wage. That's the middle class. Both protests were mostly middle class, and that's my point. As for the 31% of really poor I will have to say it again: its a well know fact that PT pays miserable people to enlarge their demonstrations (http://www.valor.com.br/politica/3952318/manifestantes-recebem-r-35-para-ir-ato-favor-de-dilma-em-sp, http://www.brasilpost.com.br/2015/03/13/manifestantes-recebem-para-protestar_n_6866902.html, http://ultimosegundo.ig.com.br/brasil/2013-07-11/com-militantes-pagos-ato-na-avenida-paulista-reune-7-mil-pessoas.html). So I take those numbers with a big grain of salt. As I said, the only protests were the majority is genuinely poor are MST and MTST (and the like) protests. Everything else (including the popular public transport protests) are mostly middle class people and college students etc. Yesterday wanst that much different except for a larger % of really rich people. Also, Aecio had a really bad reception at paulista http://noticias.r7.com/brasil/alckmin-e-aecio-chegam-a-paulista-sob-vaias-e-gritos-de-corruptos-14032016. People might trust him more than Dilma (is not difficult at the moment), but there is no way he has any chance in 2018 and will not even try Elias_Maluco fucked around with this message at 17:22 on Mar 14, 2016 |
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Mar 14, 2016 17:15
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Lol @ the levels of trust for Wyllys & Genro. I guess they're a part of the anti-aecio communist plot too.
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Mar 14, 2016 17:16
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The Unnamed One posted:I'm real doubtful of that, since it seems members of the Judiciary don't seem to care as much if the corrupt people are defenders of the establishment than otherwise (and seeing how much Lula bent over backwards to it in his government, that's saying something). I don't really care if they catch them all at once or one at a time. A thousand wrongs don't make a right. 
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Mar 14, 2016 17:20
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Sulla posted:I don't really care if they catch them all at once or one at a time. A thousand wrongs don't make a right. Counterpoint: Bolsomito. Also, people were really into Cunha for a bit, before the scandals came up. E: And I'm not saying Lula shouldn't be arrested if he is guilty of this poo poo, but the narrative has not been the same for members of the right involved in this (Temer, Aécio, etc.) The Unnamed One fucked around with this message at 17:28 on Mar 14, 2016 |
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Mar 14, 2016 17:25
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The Unnamed One posted:Counterpoint: Bolsomito. The whole system is rotten to the core. Even if Dilma goes out we'd have to go about 10 rungs down the succession ladder before finding anybody who doesn't have any dirt on them. One thing I agree with is the way every protest just seems so aimless. They could really come up with a few legislative proposals and rally around those, instead of asking for any one politician's head on a platter.
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Mar 14, 2016 17:34
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Lmao like the congress would do jack poo poo. Remember the ficha limps initiative? And the 2014 pleas for political reform?
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Mar 14, 2016 17:51
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Elias_Maluco posted:Both had a majority of people within the 5-20 minimum wage. That's the middle class. Both protests were mostly middle class, and that's my point. 5 to 20 minimum wages is not middle class by any definition of the word. If you want to get really technical, IBGE defines the "C Class" as 4 to 10 times the minimum wage. Trying to argue that those are the same demographics is insanity . As for whether people are paid or not, you are moving goal posts. "Bad reception" and posters aside, anyone saying that this wasn't a largely pro-PSDB crowd is fooling themselves.  Finally, Aecio is still the favorite for 2018. Polls 2 years ahead of schedule may not tell us much, but if he doesn't have a chance in 2018, I don't know who has, given that he leads all recent polls.
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Mar 14, 2016 18:46
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joepinetree posted:5 to 20 minimum wages is not middle class by any definition of the word. If you want to get really technical, IBGE defines the "C Class" as 4 to 10 times the minimum wage. Trying to argue that those are the same demographics is insanity . As for whether people are paid or not, you are moving goal posts. Im not moving anything, Ive said on the previous post I didnt trust those numbers because it is know that PT hires protestors among the poor. And nothing you said changes the fact that both protests still have roughly the same % of people in the 5-20 minimum wage range, which is the middle class for any sane person Also, that chart you posted is from one year ago. A lot have changed since Anyways, some other perspectives: El Pais actually went to poorer areas of São Paulo after those people who didnt come to Paulista yesterday: not surprisingly (considering Dilma's rejection is around 90%), they are also very unsatisfied and pro impeachment: http://brasil.elpais.com/brasil/2016/03/13/politica/1457907975_948644.html?id_externo_rsoc=TW_CM EDIT: and sorry for the facebook link, but here is a video of the warm reception pro-PT demonstration got in a poor area of Fortaleza https://www.facebook.com/juaneceara/videos/908365079260698/?refid=52 Elias_Maluco fucked around with this message at 19:21 on Mar 14, 2016 |
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Mar 14, 2016 19:11
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 CHILE WILL FINALLY LEAVE DAYLIGHT SAVINGS TIME AFTER TWO YEARS also something something penta something something caval something something sqm
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Mar 14, 2016 20:06
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Whether the poor, non-white people were at the CUT protest because they were paid or not is irrelevant to your claim that the demographics of yesterday's event being the same as that of most other protests. That is demonstrably false by every measure.
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Mar 14, 2016 20:13
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As someone who just sprang forward... *yaaaawn* you wimps... zzzzzzz
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Mar 14, 2016 20:13
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Kopijeger posted:Why is there a tag on the nanny's shirt? Any special significance to that? It's implying that it was just bought recently, specifically for the protests now that they are trendy.
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Mar 14, 2016 21:49
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The flag manufacturers in china must be happy. Usually people only bought them every 4 years.
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Mar 14, 2016 21:57
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nerdz posted:According to his official bio page on flamengo's homepage, he was the financial vice president of Brasif, the company that was sending money illegally to Fernando Henrique's mistress. What incentive do job creators in Brazil have to contribute to non-profit organizations which directly benefit them? Like, yeah, it's nice that they have a nanny and all--- wouldn't it be nicer if it were easier for them to organize and fund an early child care program so that other folk could benefit from their job creation as well?
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Mar 14, 2016 23:21
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we should follow italy's example and elect Roberto Marinho or Luis Frias president in 2018.
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Mar 14, 2016 23:47
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Roberto Marinho's necromantically reanimated corpse you mean.
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Mar 14, 2016 23:57
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TheLovablePlutonis posted:Roberto Marinho's necromantically reanimated corpse you mean. Any Roberto marinho will do, even the dead ones.
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Mar 15, 2016 00:07
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Lula's about to become a Minister in order to avoid being arrested. I knew I should've bought more dollars when I had the chance  gently caress this country.
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Mar 15, 2016 00:46
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Sulla posted:Lula's about to become a Minister in order to avoid being arrested. I mean, accepting that proposal is an implicit admission of guilt in my eyes, but more than that, it torpedoes his shot at the presidency in 2018. ...so I guess I'm voting PSOL next election? God, I might end up voting for Marina, won't I?
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Mar 15, 2016 00:54
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I'll vote from the rooftops.
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Mar 15, 2016 00:55
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I'll vote for whomever is against the PSDB next election.
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Mar 15, 2016 02:41
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This is all sounding way too hosed up to be true, really. The sources are very flimsy as well. I'll believe it when it happens, and if it does oooh boy
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Mar 15, 2016 04:14
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 The protest's VIP area. A good analogy I think, a tiny minority focussing righteous popular anger towards everything wrong in this goddamn country (which is a whole drat lot) in a moral panic against corruption while standing above the crowd. What I think people are failing to notice is that the wider political objective is to rattle PT so loving much they get landslided in this years municipal elections (that nobody remembers because politics is such a loving circus right now), a goal I have no doubts has already been achieved, after which point PT's power base will only tend to decline. The unknown part is whether the "traditional" right will get imploded as well, leaving political ground very wide open for the populist new right which seems to be surging worldwide like FN in France, Trump in the US, represented here by Bolsonaro (Ironically the first i heard of the gospel of bolsomito was in 55chan and here we are on SA discussing this). To those protesting, really i guess if there's truth in your heart and you're really convinced of the righteousness of where this road leads, there's nothing I could say that would change your minds, I just really hope you keep protesting when supposedly it's time for everybody else to be arrested as so many people claim they will. For the record, PT really had this coming since the Lula's pact with PMDB and I will laugh when this dysfunctional political house burns down, but was hoping we could get past the "eliminate the communists, for god family and property" poo poo and just do it by vote like more stable, sane democracies.
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Mar 15, 2016 08:25
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Ill vote for anything that inst PT or PSDB in 2018 So Marina, I guess nerdz posted:This is all sounding way too hosed up to be true, really. The sources are very flimsy as well. I'll believe it when it happens, and if it does oooh boy Its happening http://oglobo.globo.com/brasil/lula-deve-assumir-ministerio-mas-exige-mudanca-na-economia-18875428
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Mar 15, 2016 12:59
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 it's only fair, his equip plays in the left, in the right, in the middle, from behind...
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Mar 15, 2016 13:27
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Someone sent me this article which is perhaps the most even-handed coverage (I think) I've seen. http://brasil.elpais.com/brasil/2016/03/14/opinion/1457966204_346156.html
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Mar 15, 2016 14:04
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bagual posted:
so what you're saying is latin americans can't have nice things
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Mar 15, 2016 18:21
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nerdz posted:so what you're saying is latin americans can't have nice things basically, yeah i just hope our lizard communist overlords keep the buses running on time 
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Mar 16, 2016 18:50
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bagual posted:basically, yeah This guy is muscling in on Latuff's turf.
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Mar 16, 2016 19:02
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Really disappointed in the Lula news. This just makes everything seem even more corrupt.
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Mar 16, 2016 19:53
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And Moro decides to light everything on fire http://g1.globo.com/pr/parana/noticia/2016/03/pf-libera-documento-que-mostra-ligacao-entre-lula-e-dilma.html (For those who don't understand portuguese, the judge responsible for the Lava Jato leaked tapped phonecalls from Dilma to Lula, implying that the Ministry position was offered to stop him from being investigated). gently caress everyone involved in this story.
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Mar 17, 2016 00:28
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The cool thing about poo poo hitting the fan is that everyone ends up covered in it. Not sure if Brazil's gonna be able to keep this up for two more years, right now I'm just terrified of the "third option" we might end up taking between PSDB/PMDB and PT.
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Mar 17, 2016 00:40
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Protests all over the country right now, specially in São Paulo, Brasilia and RJ Brasilia https://twitter.com/correio/status/710243186661314565 São Paulo https://twitter.com/YodaSapiens_29/status/710246943251898368 https://twitter.com/MariaCarbwel/status/710250977476145152
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Mar 17, 2016 00:47
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At least pushing for resignation makes sense.
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Mar 17, 2016 00:48
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Jesus gently caress, I better not wake up to a coup, military or not.
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Mar 17, 2016 00:51
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Some say at least 1500 people protesting around the palace in Brasilia https://twitter.com/reaconaria/status/710222984649252864
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Mar 17, 2016 00:59
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So apparently the call was made after Lula was confirmed as minister, which would not constitute obstruction of justice. Not that it's gonna stop the outrage at this point (Lula being a minister is already a lovely move, anyway). Still, dude is hosed after calling everyone (Congress, Cunha, Renan, even the loving Supreme Court) bitches. Seriously, everything about it is loving terrible and terrifying.
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Mar 17, 2016 01:41
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How dumb do you have to be to do something like that? How hard is it to NOT discuss shady dealings over the phone when you're the president of a country?
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Mar 17, 2016 02:27
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