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FFX was pretty straightfoward. Any huge plot twist is revealed pretty early in the game, when it would've easily been saved as a huge thing in the final arc.
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Mar 14, 2016 19:13
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pretty much every FF has a fairly straight forward plot, people just seem to think any fantastical elements outside like wizards and monsters is instantly insane and incomprehensible or in the case of FFVII a bad translation makes things more confusing than they need to be
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Mar 14, 2016 19:16
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I think the only one that doesn't is VIII but maybe I just didn't get what was going on because I stopped caring at the end of Disc 1.
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Mar 14, 2016 19:27
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If any game warranted a sequel, it would be FFVIII. I really thought it had a cool world that looks unique and doesn't quite feel like any other FF world.
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Mar 14, 2016 19:33
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8-Bit Scholar posted:If any game warranted a sequel, it would be FFVIII. I really thought it had a cool world that looks unique and doesn't quite feel like any other FF world. It's a pretty final fantasy in so far as it creates a closed loop, human history is only like 400 years old or whatever, and if you assume the mishmash setting is due to time kompression none of the things that exist while continue to exist in relative position with each other after squall and co kill ultemecia. But id play the poo poo out of a kill Hyne simulator.
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Mar 14, 2016 19:35
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In Training posted:I enjoyed the demo but I thought the fighting was too easy and simple. Thankfully they've talked about making changes so it's a bit more involved and the demo had very limited options for weapons and character building, which again, will probably be more involved in he full game. I'm really excited for it. I liked it, my complaint with the combat was the standard demo complaint was that the weapon system just kind of dumped you into it with a few tutorial windows. The full game will probably introduce them slower and give you time to get a feel for each one before they give you the next. The optional imp cave was rather well done and creepy.
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Mar 14, 2016 19:36
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Cake Attack posted:pretty much every FF has a fairly straight forward plot, people just seem to think any fantastical elements outside like wizards and monsters is instantly insane and incomprehensible I can't imagine why dialogue composed of made up word salad combined with typically poorly done localizations results in someone feeling that plots are incomprehensible. Wizards show your audience that you are likely in a fantasy world. L'cie is a word that makes your audience scratch their heads and go 'who the gently caress translated this?'
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Mar 14, 2016 19:38
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Tae posted:FFX was pretty straightfoward. Any huge plot twist is revealed pretty early in the game, when it would've easily been saved as a huge thing in the final arc. You know, except for the twist that Tidus is a dream that's lived his whole life in a dream city dreamed up to replicate a real city that was wiped out ages ago, and defeating Sin will make him stop existing. That was pretty out there. I guess the thing with Yuna was technically a twist too, even if it was pretty telegraphed.
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Mar 14, 2016 19:41
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Cake Attack posted:pretty much every FF has a fairly straight forward plot, people just seem to think any fantastical elements outside like wizards and monsters is instantly insane and incomprehensible XIII can be pretty genuinely confusing with how much poo poo they throw at you at once with little in-game explanation, and it gets even worse in XIII-2 with the time travel being introduced.
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Mar 14, 2016 19:44
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DrNutt posted:I can't imagine why dialogue composed of made up word salad combined with typically poorly done localizations results in someone feeling that plots are incomprehensible. Wizards show your audience that you are likely in a fantasy world. L'cie is a word that makes your audience scratch their heads and go 'who the gently caress translated this?' The entire 'Cie naming system is really good and ties together relevant things and helps reinforce that a Fal'Cie is still just a puppet. The problem is the game doesn't really give a goddamn about its interesting setting or why you should care and let's that ride back seat in the datalogs while at the same time what little plot you are given involves the characters making decisions that are literally what the villain has said he wants them to do because ????
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Mar 14, 2016 19:44
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nothing about the various 'cie terms is at all confusing! Yeah, there are some exceptions though to what I said. XIII has too much stuff only in data logs
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Mar 14, 2016 19:50
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Schwartzcough posted:You know, except for the twist that Tidus is a dream that's lived his whole life in a dream city dreamed up to replicate a real city that was wiped out ages ago, and defeating Sin will make him stop existing. That was pretty out there. I guess the thing with Yuna was technically a twist too, even if it was pretty telegraphed. It's a bit weird, but it's a concept that is thoroughly explored, explained and depicted by the game itself, so by the time you learn about it, it doesn't feel that strange. Indeed, it's kind of the ultimate moment where you realize that the Fayth, Yevon, all of it really is built upon nothing but suffering and lies. The politics are corrupt, but the fundamental act of the faith, the conjuring of Aeons, is born out of the enduring suffering of the Fayths. FFX is good.
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Mar 14, 2016 19:54
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The problem with the Cie thing is that it's a complete nonsense word that has no contextual clues as to what it means in any language.
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Mar 14, 2016 19:57
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Fister Roboto posted:The problem with the Cie thing is that it's a complete nonsense word that has no contextual clues as to what it means in any language. It is a fantasy made-up word which is extremely common in almost every form of fantasy and sci-fi and each of the terms that use 'cie are explained by the character within the first hour of the game, usually right after the first time they're introduced. It isn't like someone is going "I l'cied down the street to fal'cie" or whatever. Each refers to a specific thing. Nobody plays FFXIV and goes "Wait, what's a Miquo'te? Why I don't understand!" ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 20:01 on Mar 14, 2016 |
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Mar 14, 2016 19:59
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I blame the apostrophe. I legit think the terms would've been better received if they went with Falcie and Lcie (or Luhcie or whatever). It probably doesn't help either that the game begins in media res and you don't really know what's going on other than cool explosions and tough moms. Throwing the 'Cies in on top of that may have thrown people off, even if they're explained well enough in-game.
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Mar 14, 2016 20:03
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I didn't even know people had a problem with those terms until just now
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Mar 14, 2016 20:06
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8-Bit Scholar posted:It's a bit weird, but it's a concept that is thoroughly explored, explained and depicted by the game itself, so by the time you learn about it, it doesn't feel that strange. Indeed, it's kind of the ultimate moment where you realize that the Fayth, Yevon, all of it really is built upon nothing but suffering and lies. The politics are corrupt, but the fundamental act of the faith, the conjuring of Aeons, is born out of the enduring suffering of the Fayths. It really is. FFX is my favorite FF story.
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Mar 14, 2016 20:06
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Should've called them "C and D- tier robogods that are trying to help the B tier gods and A tier god kill the S tier god again for the second time but this time for real" because that's honestly a much better name. Also materia is a confusing made-up name it should've been called "crystallized mako (which is the liquid form of the lifestream (which is spirit energy from the planet)) that lets you cast fireballs and stuff".
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Mar 14, 2016 20:07
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ImpAtom posted:It is a fantasy made-up word which is extremely common in almost every form of fantasy and sci-fi and each of the terms that use 'cie are explained by the character within the first hour of the game, usually right after the first time they're introduced. They either make up words or they combine two words to make a new one. I always wondered about that. Look at something like Skyrim with the Greybeards and Stormcloaks. That's pretty typical of fantasy - Wordswords. And while it is all explained and it is all very simple, it's too much. The first hour of the game, I'm trying to wrap my head around the battle system and these characters. Adding in stuff like the difference between Guardian Corps and PSICOM or fal'Cie and l'Cie is more just the straw that broke the camel's back. Going back, with hindsight, all of its very straightforward but when I was first playing XIII, i twas just too much too fast. XIII had a really bad pace...kind of the opposite of XII's bad pacing. They both went in the entirely wrong directions on how to pace their stories. Also I never had a problem understanding FFVII's plot. The translation doesn't do any harm to it at all. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 20:10 on Mar 14, 2016 |
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Mar 14, 2016 20:08
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ImpAtom posted:It is a fantasy made-up word which is extremely common in almost every form of fantasy and sci-fi and each of the terms that use 'cie are explained by the character within the first hour of the game, usually right after the first time they're introduced. The difference isn't that they are particularly hard to understand per se, it's that all three terms get dropped on you in quick succession, and then you're just stuck hearing these made-up words over and over again throughout the game. Maybe if the rest of 13's plot wasn't so crap it wouldn't be a problem, but they sort of represent the problem of 13: it is needlessly convoluted, and goes out of its way to say what it wants to say in unneccessarily obtuse ways.
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Mar 14, 2016 20:09
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Barudak posted:The entire 'Cie naming system is really good and ties together relevant things and helps reinforce that a Fal'Cie is still just a puppet. The problem is the game doesn't really give a goddamn about its interesting setting or why you should care and let's that ride back seat in the datalogs while at the same time what little plot you are given involves the characters making decisions that are literally what the villain has said he wants them to do because ???? NikkolasKing posted:They just wanted to kill Bart so he'd stop summoning in giant turtle-elephants to destroy Cocoon. This sums up my feelings pretty much. Nobody expected a Deus Owl Machina. They also were charging in guns blazing because they thought Sanctum was moving to kill Orphan themselves, and they absolutely didn't want that happening. It just kind of went tits up when Orphan decided to turn the party into Cieth and torture the lesbians.
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Mar 14, 2016 20:12
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NikkolasKing posted:They either make up words or they combine two words to make a new one. I always wondered about that. Look at something like Skyrim with the Greybeards and Stormcloaks. That's pretty typical of fantasy - Wordswords. If there's a criticism to be made about l'cie and fal'cie its the greater problem that a lot of the most important plot beats are side notes in the glossary. If you aren't following the journal you miss way too much.
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Mar 14, 2016 20:18
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Apostrophes are a bad sign. Memorable fantasy words are pronounceable.
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Mar 14, 2016 20:22
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zedprime posted:Grey beard was an extant phrase and is an almost perfect fantasy parallel to the original use in tech industry. Such as,
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Mar 14, 2016 20:27
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Tempo 119 posted:Such as, Such as who the gently caress PSICOM is or why they suck so much at capturing you.
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Mar 14, 2016 20:29
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Actually I wouldn't say that I miss that at all hohoho  
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Mar 14, 2016 20:30
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Tempo 119 posted:Such as, The Cid rewrite debacle, but I'm not about to joke like that's a good part.
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Mar 14, 2016 20:31
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8-Bit Scholar posted:The difference isn't that they are particularly hard to understand per se, it's that all three terms get dropped on you in quick succession, and then you're just stuck hearing these made-up words over and over again throughout the game. Maybe if the rest of 13's plot wasn't so crap it wouldn't be a problem, but they sort of represent the problem of 13: it is needlessly convoluted, and goes out of its way to say what it wants to say in unneccessarily obtuse ways. In almost any fantasy game on the planet you're introduced to words you hear for the rest of the game, which fall into one of four catagories: The Generic: "The Darkness" or "The Scourge" or "The Maker." The Slightly Fantasy Versions Of Words: "Wildfyre" or " "Fayth" The Existing Mythological Even When It Makes No Sense: Gilgamesh, Hercules, Behemoth, Leviathan, ect. The Made Up. Stories make up words. It is dumb to expect them not to because A) You can trademark distinctive names or terms which is important for marketing purposes and B) If you don't you end up with everything sounding absurdly generic. It is not obtuse it is how stories are told. zedprime posted:Learn what l'cie and fal'cie are before a fal'cie turns the party into l'cie. Understand what the purge is. That happens! I've posted the excerpts before but various characters specifically explain the entire l'cie thing before it happens to to the cast. Sazh in particular straight-up lays it out. It isn't a glossary or side scene or whatever it is in an unavoidable cutscene. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 20:35 on Mar 14, 2016 |
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Mar 14, 2016 20:32
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Bongo Bill posted:Apostrophes are a bad sign. Memorable fantasy words are pronounceable. Yeah. Shame they didn't have the characters voice the words so you know how exactly the pronounce them. 
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Mar 14, 2016 20:32
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ImpAtom posted:That happens! I've posted the excerpts before but various characters specifically explain the entire l'cie thing before it happens to to the cast. Sazh in particular straight-up lays it out.
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Mar 14, 2016 20:36
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ImpAtom posted:
Nobody's expecting people to not make up words. But the problem is that FF13's story is overly complicated and meandering and pointless and it's hard to really understand what the hell is going on in general after awhile, or why you're supposed to care. L'cie, Fal'cie, these aren't hard to understand in the game's context, but they represent the game's unwillingness to really tell its story clearly or effectively. Compare it to Tales of Abyss, with its constant "fonons" and "fonic artes" and poo poo like that. At least "fonic" is roughly connected to "phonic" which refers to sound but even still, it's kind of hard to keep up with all the terminology. I can't think of a single "great" role playing story that utilized obtuse language in such a way, can you?
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Mar 14, 2016 20:37
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ImpAtom posted:In almost any fantasy game on the planet you're introduced to words you hear for the rest of the game, which fall into one of four catagories: Like there are a lot of legitimate things to complain about in XIII but this is such a weird thing to get fixated on
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Mar 14, 2016 20:37
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zedprime posted:I must be thinking of the journal entry after the Sazh conversation. Because I am now remembering that yeah, it flew the gently caress over my head but the journal had it in prose instead of a exposition conversation and I was back on track to understanding what was happening. Here are just some of the things from the first chapers of the game: Sazh: It's an out-and-out massacre. Those people won't even live long enough to die on Pulse. Lightning: That was the idea. Sazh: What? Lightning: Sanctum logic. They conjured up the Purge to eliminate a threat. I mean—why carry the danger all the way to Pulse? Why not just stamp it out here? Execution masquerading as exile. That's all the Purge ever was. Sazh: Listen to me. When a person gets cursed by the fal'Cie, they become l'Cie. Then they get given a Focus, right? How do I put this? If they don't carry it out, l'Cie end up as one of those things. What I'm saying is, if your sister's gone that far...I mean--! She might still--! How can I--? Oh, man There's no way to turn a l'Cie back into human. Even if she completes her Focus, there's no changing her fate. She'll live her life as a fal'Cie slave. Don't make her suffer. I know you're saying that it flew over your head but it seems really straightforward to me.
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Mar 14, 2016 20:39
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ImpAtom posted:In almost any fantasy game on the planet you're introduced to words you hear for the rest of the game, which fall into one of four catagories: I've had this argument with you multiple times but I still stand by my assertion that the reason the 'cie terms rub people the wrong way is that their strange denotation imply there's another native language at work like how Elvin and Klingon work for their IP's but they don't get elaborated on in FF13. One could even imagine they come from the divine language of the fal'Cie or something (which would easily fit into one of the games many data dumps) but they just don't go that extra mile. In comparison, "Wait, what's a Miquo'te? Why I don't understand!" is easily explainable because it's the name of the race and when you create a character, FF14 actually gives a brief description of the origin of the race that is enough to let you imagine they once had their own native language and that's where the name comes from. What I'm getting at is that FF13 doesn't do world-building well. At all. quote:Sazh: Listen to me. When a person gets cursed by the fal'Cie, they become l'Cie. Then they get given a Focus, right? How do I put this? If they don't carry it out, l'Cie end up as one of those things. What I'm saying is, if your sister's gone that far...I mean--! She might still--! How can I--? Oh, man There's no way to turn a l'Cie back into human. Even if she completes her Focus, there's no changing her fate. She'll live her life as a fal'Cie slave. Don't make her suffer. This is close to word salad. bloodychill fucked around with this message at 20:44 on Mar 14, 2016 |
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Mar 14, 2016 20:42
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Bongo Bill posted:Apostrophes are a bad sign. Memorable fantasy words are pronounceable. It's almost like the game is fully voiced and they don't treat it as a glottal stop but rather as an affectation of the written language like an apostrophe for possession. L'Cie is not the problem: the problem is the game doesn't care to engage the concept in a way that includes you the player. For a game that ends with a literal in the classic theater sense Deus Ex Machina it'd be nice to know that was a possibility at all without sort of vaguely inferring it from the datalogs. It's also embarrassing because they could have kept the entire plot the same if the characters had just gone "oh we turn to crystal when we break focus? That means we can beat Barth and save cocoon" when they see what happened to pulse and then the rest of the game progresses the same except the player gets it. Edit: the game would not be improved or any more logical if they went with False God, Limited God, God Cursed. Barudak fucked around with this message at 20:45 on Mar 14, 2016 |
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Mar 14, 2016 20:42
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8-Bit Scholar posted:I can't think of a single "great" role playing story that utilized obtuse language in such a way, can you? How are you defining 'great' in this case? Because there are plenty of excellent RPGs both W and J which make up their own terms and concepts or are borrowing made-up terms or concepts someone else made. Because like Planescape: Torment is great and it has a character named Dak'kon who is a githzerai. bloodychill posted:This is close to word salad. Bullshit. Sazh: Listen to me. When a person gets cursed by God they become Slaves. Then they get given a task, right? How do I put this? If they don't carry it out, the slaves end up as one of those things. What I'm saying is, if your sister's gone that far...I mean--! She might still--! How can I--? Oh, man There's no way to turn a slave back into human. Even if she completes her task, there's no changing her fate. She'll live her life as a God's slave. Don't make her suffer. That isn't a perfect conveyance of the idea but "it's word salad" is ridiculous. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 20:46 on Mar 14, 2016 |
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Mar 14, 2016 20:44
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Basically, the game can't connect to you on a human, basic level, so why on earth is anyone going to connect to the inhuman, fantastical aspects of it when there's nothing really grounding them? Sazh is the closest thing to a character whose motivation is relatable; he just wants to protect his creepy-looking son. Snow's situation is hard to relate to because his fiance is now a crystal and it's not clear if she's dead or alive or what the hell is going on there.
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Mar 14, 2016 20:45
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The part of that conversation that is the most likely to cause confusion is the use of the word "Focus" I think. If you're just going to capitalize a common noun, at least make it self-describing. The fact that the two fictional words look and sound similar to each other probably makes it difficult to remember which one is the master and which one is the slave.
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Mar 14, 2016 20:45
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Bongo Bill posted:The part of that conversation that is the most likely to cause confusion is the use of the word "Focus" I think. If you're just going to capitalize a common noun, at least make it self-describing. How does Focus not describe itself? I don't want to get all dictionary here but something being a person's focus is pretty much exactly what it is in the game. That said the Japanese word is "Mission."
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Mar 14, 2016 20:48
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ImpAtom posted:Sazh: Listen to me. When a person gets cursed by God they become Slaves. Then they get given a task, right? How do I put this? If they don't carry it out, the slaves end up as one of those things. What I'm saying is, if your sister's gone that far...I mean--! She might still--! How can I--? Oh, man There's no way to turn a slave back into human. Even if she completes her task, there's no changing her fate. She'll live her life as a God's slave. Don't make her suffer. Yeah but that bit of dialog is also like...uh...okay? A god's slave? Wait, slaves aren't human? Why is the black guy saying that? What do you mean she'll always be a slave? How do you know that? Hey what's that in your hand is that the script?
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Mar 14, 2016 20:48
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