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ewe2 posted:Everyone has choices, you say. You make a virtue of the conscious choices you make and seek to minimize the ones you didn't have to make. Those choices you imply are ones you'd get right every time if you had to, but you never had to; such a self-serving argument and one that locks you out of understanding. Your lack of empathy becomes your worldview and you don't understand its irony. When this is pointed out you roll out the self-pity mat and declaim how individual you are. It doesn't fool anyone: we can see your self-interest and that isn't actually the problem, it's the excuses you make for it. Learning to empathise and recognise what privilege is, is work. It might be easier for some than others, but it's still a learning process, and you're not going to start by yelling CHOICES. And this is why that thinking gets short shrift here.
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Mar 15, 2016 04:05
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MysticalMachineGun posted:Source? Courier Mail.
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Mar 15, 2016 04:06
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Graic Gabtar posted:Honestly, do you just need a hug?
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Mar 15, 2016 04:09
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Graic Gabtar posted:Honestly, do you just need a hug? I'm really sorry for you then. I made an effort, I even consulted others opinion because I felt I might be going too far, but your response indicates you're a waste of my time. So be it.
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Mar 15, 2016 04:11
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ewe2 posted:Everyone has choices, you say. You make a virtue of the conscious choices you make and seek to minimize the ones you didn't have to make. Those choices you imply are ones you'd get right every time if you had to, but you never had to; such a self-serving argument and one that locks you out of understanding. Your lack of empathy becomes your worldview and you don't understand its irony. When this is pointed out you roll out the self-pity mat and declaim how individual you are. It doesn't fool anyone: we can see your self-interest and that isn't actually the problem, it's the excuses you make for it. Learning to empathise and recognise what privilege is, is work. It might be easier for some than others, but it's still a learning process, and you're not going to start by yelling CHOICES. And this is why that thinking gets short shrift here. Thanks for this! I'm keep keeping it for when someone needs a smackdown
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Mar 15, 2016 04:14
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Frogmanv2 posted:Funnily enough, no, the answer is not to do nothing. The answer is to ask the people who live there what will work, and give them some agency back in the decision making process that massively effects them. Yes, the answer is obviously not to do nothing and I can't disagree with what you've said. You're assuming though that you can engage enough people to do this or you are just abstracting the problem to a different level to people who aren't really accountable. In this case the Government is using a blunt instrument to (in their view) minimize harm. Is the alternative to kick down every door in Ceduna to intervene? Is what they are doing purely to 'keep people down' as frequently gets trotted out here?
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Mar 15, 2016 04:20
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ewe2 posted:I'm really sorry for you then. I made an effort, I even consulted others opinion because I felt I might be going too far, but your response indicates you're a waste of my time. So be it. I'm not pissed or dismissive because you made an effort. I'm pissed because people don't even read what I post. I try and try to engage with people in good faith (conceding I haven't always) but all I get is hostility in return. It is what it is I guess.
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Mar 15, 2016 04:24
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You run into an arsehole throughout your day, and you probably just ran into an arsehole. If you find people are constantly being arseholes or hostile towards you, chances are that you are the arsehole, and people merely reflect the negativity put in front of them. But whatever, humans are terrified of looking inward to solve their problems or answer their questions.
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Mar 15, 2016 04:30
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ewe2 posted:Am I racist? No, but I benefit from racism and privilege and being a white male, and I have no problem recognising that and empathising with those who do not share my privilege instead of sneering and using choices as an excuse to shut them out. See, that's a choice I made. I don't accept it as involuntary. I grew up in some very racist, homophobic and misogynist environments, I had a lot of work to do myself. This was a great post but I disagree with this section. I think you, like everyone is racist. I think we all make small or large judgements based on race, it's a very flawed and yet very human thing to do. The choice we make is to internally challenge those judgements, to take the decision to ask ourselves "Is this a fair response" and not to throw out our knee jerk reaction assuming that it is correct. Everyone is racist, to claim that anyone isn't racist is to deny the existence of racism by claiming it is possible to be "not racist". It says being racist is a choice, when in fact being racist is your default reaction and not being racist is a choice, it allows people to leave their own reactions unchallenged because it's possible that they aren't racist. If everyone came into every situation with the assumption that "I'm going to make internal judgements based on race because I'm at least a bit racist" then there would be a lot less expressed racism in the world. Craig, don't take offence if someone calls you or your opinions racist. It's not some great shut down of debate, it's pointing out that we all make those judgements and that we need to be vigilant that our internal racist monologue is challenged by rational thought. Accepting our racism is part of working towards being less racist.
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Mar 15, 2016 04:36
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Graic Gabtar posted:Is what they are doing purely to 'keep people down' as frequently gets trotted out here? My grandfather keeps repeating that the only thing we need to do to fix Australia is stop sending all our money overseas (in aid programs) and to make only two punishments for crimes, 20 years in prison, or the death penalty. No psychological study, historical or modern data or appeal will change his mind on either of these unsupported 'solutions' but he still genuinely sees it as a solution and it comes from, fundamentally, good intentions. I think it's a less extreme version of this. The problem that most of us have with these sorts of things is that they do appeal to people like my grandfather, but the studies we've seen say they're having the opposite effect. Making criminals pay for their own prison sentence might be 'doing something about crime' sure, but it doesn't decrease recidivism.
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Mar 15, 2016 04:45
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Fun times in the upper house. Microparties and Labor trying to wedge the greens and introduce new bills for debate to stymie the senate reforms, then drumming up some righteous indignation because the greens voted against debating their own bills.
Gitro fucked around with this message at 05:13 on Mar 15, 2016 |
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Mar 15, 2016 04:49
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hooman posted:This was a great post but I disagree with this section. I think you, like everyone is racist. I think we all make small or large judgements based on race, it's a very flawed and yet very human thing to do. The choice we make is to internally challenge those judgements, to take the decision to ask ourselves "Is this a fair response" and not to throw out our knee jerk reaction assuming that it is correct. Good point, I was responding too directly and not keeping Avenue Q in mind. We all discriminate, and I'm at fault passively if not actively.
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Mar 15, 2016 04:50
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Cheers - interesting that it happened in 2010 and somehow the LNP vetting machine didn't pick it up.
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Mar 15, 2016 04:52
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Redcordial posted:You run into an arsehole throughout your day, and you probably just ran into an arsehole. If you find people are constantly being arseholes or hostile towards you, chances are that you are the arsehole, and people merely reflect the negativity put in front of them. Funnily enough despite knowing and talking to diverse groups of people on a wide range of topics the only place I get unbridled hatred is here. I have a more receptive audience when I explain to my old man why some Greens policies are better than the Coalition's.
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Mar 15, 2016 04:57
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ewe2 posted:Good point, I was responding too directly and not keeping Avenue Q in mind. We all discriminate, and I'm at fault passively if not actively. That wasn't intended as an attack on you, I just think it's important that there isn't a case where people are "not sexist" or "not racist" and we need to change the conversation from "Racism = bad, Me = not bad, therefore me =/= racist" to "I accept the judgements that I make internally are not fair and they need to be challenged". Which again isn't really directed at you as much as it is a comment towards the broader conversation. EDIT: It's the same kind of thinking that assumes that taking away the ability of people on the dole to buy things that you think they shouldn't be spending their money on will be helping them, when in fact taking away their independence leads to worse outcomes in the long term. The knee jerk feel reaction to a situation is often super wrong and we need to challenge those knee jerk feel reactions. When all those feels go unchallenged you end up with the positions of Libertycat. hooman fucked around with this message at 05:04 on Mar 15, 2016 |
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Mar 15, 2016 05:01
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hooman posted:That wasn't intended as an attack on you, I just think it's important that there isn't a case where people are "not sexist" or "not racist" and we need to change the conversation from "Racism = bad, Me = not bad, therefore me =/= racist" to "I accept the judgements that I make internally are not fair and they need to be challenged". Which again isn't really directed at you as much as it is a comment towards the broader conversation. Not taken as such, my approach is to take responsibility and work on myself. I have a good few incidents seared into my memory to remind me of a few isms. quote:EDIT: It's the same kind of thinking that assumes that taking away the ability of people on the dole to buy things that you think they shouldn't be spending their money on will be helping them, when in fact taking away their independence leads to worse outcomes in the long term. And I've been thinking a lot about that, it doesn't seem as kneejerk to me given how badly they patronise poor people in general, with the expectation they can divert the resulting anger to other poor people who happen to be gay or black or female or foreign. Lying about child sex offences as an excuse to send the army into NT and railroad indigenous people for instance, that wasn't kneejerk, it was deliberate and hypocritical. But it was kneejerk to the extent that people who are in the position to make a change make one for the sake of looking like they're making a change. Making ghettos doesn't seem to be-oh wait that's what they do best isn't it.
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Mar 15, 2016 05:30
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quote:Greens reject senate vote on own gay marriage bil Via SBS News. Could someone weigh in on this? Is there some sort of argument for this rather than just the Greens going with a political strategy?
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Mar 15, 2016 05:31
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The Narrator posted:Via SBS News. Could someone weigh in on this? Is there some sort of argument for this rather than just the Greens going with a political strategy? Gitro posted:Fun times in the upper house. Microparties and Labor trying to wedge the greens and introduce new bills for debate to stymie the senate reforms, then drumming up some righteous indignation because the greens voted against debating their own bills. You probably missed this post, it might answer your question.
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Mar 15, 2016 05:34
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Graic Gabtar posted:Yes, the answer is obviously not to do nothing and I can't disagree with what you've said. You're assuming though that you can engage enough people to do this or you are just abstracting the problem to a different level to people who aren't really accountable. You're assuming that you can't engage enough people, actually, you can, and it's not difficult. One of the biggest things I've found in the last ~6 months is that no matter the issue, there is already some form of ngo/nfp/community org that is working on the solution. I don't know poo poo about dick re South Australia (except the Greens there have got a great mechanism for turning new members into campaigners) but I'm happy to claim that there would already be at least one local group who have proven solutions to the problems the welfare card addresses. If you want to fix your toilet, you call the plumber. If you want to fix the negative consequences of unemployment, you call the social scientist. If you want to help someone, you ask them first. Welfare card does not reflect the recommendations of professionals in the area, and it does not reflect community wishes. Because of these reasons it's a really great use of money if you want to do the opposite of what would help. Lol jokes it's too hard and you trust corporations with your money anyway so what's the point of trying in the first place
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Mar 15, 2016 05:34
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Battle begins over demands to make casual workers permanentquote:Millions of casual workers would be given the right to become permanent employees after six months, under a national union plan to curb the casualisation of Australia's workforce. Link 1) This is a good thing that is finally moving 2) If you can join your union, do so 3) If you have any spare coins, think about putting it towards one of the unions fighting for this Apologies if this has already coming up. didn't want to scan read 300 posts
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Mar 15, 2016 05:36
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:You probably missed this post, it might answer your question. The longish answer from the ABC site: quote:What the hell just happened in the red chamber? Most of this is pointless since everyone knows a DD would be disastrous for the government anyway, so the only thing I can take from this is how gormless the ALP are.
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Mar 15, 2016 05:40
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:You probably missed this post, it might answer your question. Ah, I did miss that post. Thank you. Edit: and cheers ewe2
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Mar 15, 2016 05:41
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hooman posted:Craig, don't take offence if someone calls you or your opinions racist. It's not some great shut down of debate, it's pointing out that we all make those judgements and that we need to be vigilant that our internal racist monologue is challenged by rational thought. Accepting our racism is part of working towards being less racist. With respect hooman it's sometimes hard not to be Internet offended when an accusation of being racist is often followed by being called a 'poo poo stain' or similar. I don't believe it does much for discussion. Also, its fair to say that this may have been used here occasionally as a way of shutting down debate. Although I don't believe I need to be on a 24/7 heightened security alert of my internal monologues I do appreciate your point and will have a think about it when read posts that touch on the topic. Thank you for a response that I'm actually going to read and consider as it's neither pointless or vitriolic. It's a shame that ewe2 feels that having discussions with people is pointless because they don't care for being given both barrels. That's ewe2's problem I guess.
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Mar 15, 2016 05:46
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Graic Gabtar posted:With respect hooman it's sometimes hard not to be Internet offended when an accusation of being racist is often followed by being called a 'poo poo stain' or similar. I don't believe it does much for discussion. Also, its fair to say that this may have been used here occasionally as a way of shutting down debate. ewe2 wrote a perfectly reasonable post and you're just being a wounded whiner which is exactly what you do when you aren't pretending to have your finger on the pulse of everyman.
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Mar 15, 2016 05:50
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Debate SSM on Thursday. Last sitting day before the budget and likely before the election. Kind of pointless. Amusing watching the Greens act like Labor and all the supporters here agreeing with the move. If it was the otherway around would be another example of how horrible, sellout etc. the ALP are. Wonder how the base will react. Probably wont matter now the Greens have killed off any contenders replacing them as the progressive protest vote. All aboard the ALP lite train.
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Mar 15, 2016 05:51
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Graic Gabtar posted:With respect hooman it's sometimes hard not to be Internet offended when an accusation of being racist is often followed by being called a 'poo poo stain' or similar. I don't believe it does much for discussion. Also, its fair to say that this may have been used here occasionally as a way of shutting down debate. Pretty sure Ewe2 was just a bit upset that you were really flippant about an effort post he made in good faith in order to help you understand his pov. But I agree hooman is definitely 'one of the good ones'
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Mar 15, 2016 05:53
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ewe2 posted:The longish answer from the ABC site: thanks mate Can someone give a brief rundown of what the Senate changes actually are? All I know is that they somehow stop the preference flows somehow. I recall a brief mention of 'exhausting' preferences or something but I can't for the life of me remember what that actually means. Also something about above-the-line below-the-line preferencing, but I might be making that up.
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Mar 15, 2016 05:58
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Graic Gabtar posted:drown all refugees imo Graic Gabtar posted:my feelings
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Mar 15, 2016 05:59
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:Pretty sure Ewe2 was just a bit upset that you were really flippant about an effort post he made in good faith in order to help you understand his pov. Pretty sure I'm not at all upset but it was still a waste of time engaging an arsehole. It's not a conversation I'm interested in maintaining so please drop the white knighting its only encouraging him.
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Mar 15, 2016 06:00
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Starshark posted:ewe2 wrote a perfectly reasonable post and you're just being a wounded whiner which is exactly what you do when you aren't pretending to have your finger on the pulse of everyman. Well I'll just have to take your word for it as I gave up half way through. 'Wounded whiner' huh? I simply like to keep good relations and will concede some ground as you all are good for a chat. Forgive me if I don't continually double down for your own enjoyment. As for there 'everyman' stuff? You know what? I'm going to put my hand up and own that. When I rocked up here I thought I knew everything about mainstream Australia. Turns out I really know poo poo all about what makes up what the 'mainstream'. I'm trying not to do that anymore . If I am I'm happy for people to call me out on it if I do.
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Mar 15, 2016 06:08
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So all I've gotten today from that same sex marriage thing is that it is still going to remain in limbo as parties use it as a shiny 'LOOK AT OVER' banner. Form my view no one saved face today even though I can understand why the Greens did what they did. I'm going to be hearing about this non-stop, while everyone just ignores what Labor are doing. Spudd fucked around with this message at 06:15 on Mar 15, 2016 |
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Mar 15, 2016 06:09
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EvilElmo posted:Wonder how the base will react. Probably wont matter now the Greens have killed off any contenders replacing them as the progressive protest vote. All aboard the ALP lite train. Bullet Train are still around.
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Mar 15, 2016 06:10
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EvilElmo posted:Debate SSM on Thursday. Last sitting day before the budget and likely before the election. Di Natale wants it to be discussed on Thursday too, at least.
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Mar 15, 2016 06:14
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quote:Rabbit owners try to convince police it is a guinea pig after illegal pet found http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-03-15/rabbit-found-illegally-owners-try-convince-its-guinea-pig/7247084
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Mar 15, 2016 06:17
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Jintor posted:thanks mate Doctor Spaceman has you covered: quote:The report recommends, and the the government has agreed to, amend the legislation to allow optional preferential voting below the line. quote:
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So basically you can still vote the way you did before, otherwise you can state by your ATL vote what your preferences are. It has the effect of stopping the Leyonhjelm trick of swapping preferences between a front of fake microparties to get a false quota, but also makes general preferencing much clearer, since your preferences will not be distributed behind your back to parties you did not expect to preference.
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Mar 15, 2016 06:18
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Can't even keep a rabbit in QLD what kind of hellhole state is it.
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Mar 15, 2016 06:19
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Jintor posted:thanks mate It removes the 'Mark one box above the line'. the mark one above the line was really 'substitute for this partys bellow the line numbers'. which people often had no idea what they were. Now it is mark bellow, or 1-6 above. The 1-6 above are those groups in order.
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Mar 15, 2016 06:20
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hmmm on the face of it, that seems to make sense.
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Mar 15, 2016 06:38
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Jintor posted:hmmm Solidifies a 3 party system in the Senate. Xenophon will slowly lose his spot after a high water mark this election. It will now basically be impossible for an independent or small party gain a foothold. If the ALP/LNP did this 50 years ago there would be no Greens.
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Mar 15, 2016 06:54
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EvilElmo posted:Solidifies a 3 party system in the Senate. Xenophon will slowly lose his spot after a high water mark this election. It will now basically be impossible for an independent or small party gain a foothold. If the ALP/LNP did this 50 years ago there would be no Greens. *frrrrrrrrrrrt*
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