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Honestly I can't blame people for jumping to conclusions on that tweet, given that "gay pandering" is about on the same level of dogwhistle as, say, "urban thug." Yes, it's being used semi-legit there, but given the kind of community that normally uses "pandering," and the reasons behind their criticism, it would've been a much, much better plan to phrase it a different way. Especially in a format where you're limited to a couple of sentences. Like I doubt if he'd said something like "I'd be happy if it didn't feel like this is just a cynical grab at gay people's wallets" there'd be as much heat in reaction.
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Mar 15, 2016 15:31
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And it was also discussing a way a subject is approached in a piece of media as approached by an internet critic.
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Mar 15, 2016 15:57
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KKall posted:3. ... what the christ Hahaha Too bad you already picked stuff for this year's. No matter, I'm completely unfamiliar with Twelfth Night so idk how similar it is or if they just said it was an adaptation to try and draw people in or what, but I figured you might have fun with it  Testekill posted:I guess Lucy Lawless was also cool You guess? 
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Mar 15, 2016 16:05
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Lucy Lawless is who I imagine in my head every time I think of Wonder Woman. Not that Gal Gadot didn't bulk up for the role, but come on. Lucy Lawless.
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Mar 15, 2016 16:13
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I don't mind people cynically pandering shows towards me in an attempt to get my money. Would be nice if it happened more often. If you got a problem with companies pandering to their audience then nerd culture probably isn't your best pick to get invested in.
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Mar 15, 2016 16:15
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FirstAidKite posted:You guess? She also has a great sense of humor and I wish that I could find more of her appearances on The Soup. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjjW-ZD1zzE
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Mar 15, 2016 16:18
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Arcsquad12 posted:So that happened, I guess. I think people should just stay off twitter. I think that's my problem; you spend too much time browsing through various Twitter profiles and you start to lose your mind. Honestly, it might be better if I took a break from the internet altogether.
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Mar 15, 2016 16:20
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Fans posted:If you got a problem with companies pandering to their audience then nerd culture probably isn't your best pick to get invested in. A reminder that the kinda folks who identify as 'anti sjew' (I know nothing about Bennet but this point seems to apply regardless) often have a very dim understanding of economics and operate under the assumption that, since they consume a piece of media, it should be made with their interests in mind. This causes things like different creators with different ideas they want to express, or the way media and art naturally progress and change over time, to seem like outright theft or manipulation of the market by some devious anti-market force hiding in the background.  In short, 'the lesbians are taking Xena away from me.' e: his other tweets are like 'there are plenty of other good reasons why Xena should come back!' It's like, this guy even wants more Xena, but an exec saying 'Xena will be gay' has completely soured him. Like, the acknowledgement of a character's sexuality suddenly corrupts the thing to be one big gay panderfest. It's kinda sad that such a small thing can rattle a person imo. Hbomberguy fucked around with this message at 16:35 on Mar 15, 2016 |
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Mar 15, 2016 16:28
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Someone pointed out the timing with the recent The 100 events and it would be some grade A pandering and also good if they got Alicia Debnam Carey to really drive it home.
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Mar 15, 2016 16:36
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Was there anything to Xena other than being gay? Even Bruce Campbell was gay when he was on Xena. Hercules was hella gay too. Isn't homoeroticism the whole point of that genre? Who was the audience for Steve Reeves throwing oily loincloth people around?
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Mar 15, 2016 16:43
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Hbomberguy posted:The problem isn't the pandering. It's that they're not pandering to me. Yeah that's pretty crazy. A product pandering to an audience that isn't you is not some inherent sign of toxic ideology on behalf of the creators. By the way have you heard of Tropes vs Women?
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Mar 15, 2016 16:43
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je1 healthcare posted:By the way have you heard of Tropes vs Women?
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Mar 15, 2016 16:51
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Hbomberguy posted:Tell me more It's pretty informative and entertaining, aside from where it veers off into pseudo-sociology and moral accusations. But that's less than 10% of the content, I recommend it!
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Mar 15, 2016 16:56
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I can see the argument that rebooting Xena solely to make her explicitly gay is insulting, but with the big caveat that any revive period would still have to make her explicitly gay. Sorta like how at some point in the development of the Force Awakens there was surely a conversation about the original trilogy being embarrassingly white, but "hey look guys there are black people in Star Wars" was not the thrust of the marketing or the announcement. TFA came out and a bunch of minorities being in lead roles wasn't remarked upon in film because it shouldn't be weird that people of a ton of races are in space together.
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Mar 15, 2016 17:04
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I understand his concern. It is literally impossible to consume or enjoy media unless it's specifically directed at you. It's why for so many years the only things I could watch were Queer as Folk and Dante's Cove. Also just to put in my two cents "you wouldn't want it to be pandering" snuggles up against "we can't just put a gay character in the story, that would be tokenism" as "arguments straight people make that sound nice but ultimately result in zero gay characters." Like when your mom tells you "we'll get you that toy next time" but no matter how many times you go back to the store "next time" never manages to become "this time".
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Mar 15, 2016 17:06
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dijon du jour posted:Also just to put in my two cents "you wouldn't want it to be pandering" snuggles up against "we can't just put a gay character in the story, that would be tokenism" as "arguments straight people make that sound nice but ultimately result in zero gay characters." This. This this this this this this this.
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Mar 15, 2016 17:09
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Can you guys really not think of any non-token gay characters? I'm assuming the cynicalbrit can.
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Mar 15, 2016 17:15
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Yardbomb posted:I don't mind if people don't like his content, I just wasn't feeling the "MAN gently caress THIS GUY" that it felt like happened there. From all previous evidence I've seen (Having watched too much of his stuff), I really doubt he was saying that in a gross way. If he keeps talking about it and does say something actually crummy, then I'll own up, but like some other people said I took it more in the thought of "They're gonna reboot this and run it into the ground aren't they" from the 'cynical' bit. This is still kinda faulty logic, it jumps to the conclusion of "corporate pandering to gays, therefore bad". Remaking a story in order to a re-examine an aspect of it that couldn't be explored thoroughly because of the time it was made in, that's a perfectly valid approach. Maybe it also hits diversity quotas or whatever but we live in an age of commercialized media, if there isn't something in a show that's going to appeal to get money then that show probably isn't going to get made. I understand that we have a ton of lovely reboots these days but so far this isn't "Hey Jem and the Holograms was a thing people watched in the 90's, let's slap that on a movie to make some money", this is "Hey remember all that gay subtext in Xena? That's pretty neat, let's take a look at that again". It's just such a kneejerk reaction and it seems totally biased and close-minded. Not to mention it can't be a token character if it's the main character. The problem with token characters is that they are lazy and reductionist towards the people they are representing, not that minorities exist in a story without a laundry list of excuses as to why they are there. Maybe I am being a bit too judgmental here but it's getting tiring that every single time something that has themes about LGBTs or women or black people is announced people jump on it to call it pandering and tokenism right out the gate, and yet we watch movies that pander to straight white Americans every single day without batting an eyelash. It comes across more like guys want to keep the clubhouse to themselves than anything. Augus fucked around with this message at 17:23 on Mar 15, 2016 |
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Mar 15, 2016 17:18
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je1 healthcare posted:Can you guys really not think of any non-token gay characters? I'm assuming the cynicalbrit can. Arcade Israel Gannon
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Mar 15, 2016 17:32
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Veronica sentangelo as well. The brotherhood of steel needs babies so gays are banned. Fallout new Vegas is the best. And twitter is still bad. I can see where Bennett is coming from but putting it online just makes everything sound worse. It's like the friend you have on Facebook who writes really offensive posts and flawed arguments but when you talk to them in person both of you can be reasonable because you're not simply reading text. Communication is more than words and twitter is probably the worst way to convey anything
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Mar 15, 2016 17:50
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Chloe and Max (potentially) from Life is Strange. Most of the Bioware gay characters would count I think despite not being written that well. Outside of DA2 and it's dumb playersexual silliness. Overall I think modern gaming is doing a decent job when it comes to non-binary gender choices.
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Mar 15, 2016 18:05
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HALF IN THE BAAAAG: 10 Cloverfield Lane, Me Him HerMike posted:"Some of you may know this some of you may not know this, a big chunk of the Blues Brothers was shot up in Milwaukee because there was a part of the free way that was under construction and the scene called for the Blues Mobile to kind of hang off the edge and then it goes back and does a backflip. So you could see as it's driving by, you can see the US Bank building in the background, you can see all the Milwaukee landmarks. And so we're driving with Max (Landis) on the exact stretch of road where they filmed and I was about to say, "Hey Max! You know your dad made the Blues Brothers? They filmed some of that here." I was about to say that and then Max is sitting there and goes, "So Milwaukee's like a real city, huh?"
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Mar 15, 2016 18:10
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Arcsquad12 posted:Fallout new Vegas is the best. And twitter is still bad. je1 healthcare posted:It's pretty informative and entertaining, aside from where it veers off into pseudo-sociology and moral accusations. But that's less than 10% of the content, I recommend it! I often hear people make the argument that games don't affect how people act, but apparently they've never opened Twitter.
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Mar 15, 2016 18:12
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Mokinokaro posted:Overall I think modern gaming is doing a decent job when it comes to non-binary gender choices. Curtis Craig is still the only canonically bisexual man to be the sole player character of a game.
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Mar 15, 2016 18:12
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Mokinokaro posted:Chloe and Max (potentially) from Life is Strange. I thought Cortez on ME3 was written really well. Bioware usually ranges from Anders level of awfulness to okayish but I really think they knocked it out of the park with Cortez. Haven't tried Inquisition so no idea if what they've got there is any decent.
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Mar 15, 2016 18:13
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Hopefully not repeating too much of what other people have said, there's like a sea of text to get through here, but as someone who's seen Xena like....more than 5 times through at least, I gotta say it's pretty much everything BUT stating that Xena and Gabrielle are gay. Like they made out on screen at least 3 different times and said they loved each other every other sentence. One episode features an orgy scene where they sexy dance in leather together. Another hinges on Gabrielle being brought out of a coma by her one true love and Xena kisses her to life. So the remake explicitly stating they're gay doesn't change the content of the show honestly, it only serves as a positive reinforcement for the LGBTQIA audience by not having to be "lol cute secret" anymore. And that was an absolute necessity in the 90s. I remember seeing an interview about the show where they said the network once asked them to remove a shot in the opening credits where Xena is approaching a guy with long hair because they said it looked like she was about to make out with a girl. And the main meat of the show was their relationship; the battles and stuff were mostly secondary. At its heart, Xena was a love story. So honestly, if you're not gonna make them explicitly gay, then yeah, what is the point of remaking it?
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Mar 15, 2016 18:34
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Inquisition is pretty decent at it though one of the gay characters is pretty grating Dorian is a gay male wizard from Tevinter with an absolutely charming personality. he also has a really interesting nuanced view of the world due to his upbringing. Sera is the grating one. A lesbian elf who grew up among humans and feels all elves need to assimilate and abandon their traditions. Her personality is extremely grating with a lolrandom humour slant to her dialogue. Josephine is a bisexual human noble whose romance plaus out like a cheesy romance novel. Ultimately bland but not offensive (hurt too by her being a support character limiting her interactions.) Iron Bull is probably my favourite. He's a bisexual qunari man with a good sense of humour. His romance is both hilarious and full of heart. That being said there is a trans male character who sadly really feels like a token since your interaction with him is mostly talking about his gender. Another touch I like is some romance stuff is also gated by your characters race. Mokinokaro fucked around with this message at 19:09 on Mar 15, 2016 |
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Mar 15, 2016 18:40
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Hbomberguy posted:The only two truths. True, I've heard arguments made about the media's power to turn our kids into sexual deviants, from opponents of all gay/sexual depictions. Fortunately we now know this to be psuedo-sociological justifications to attack content that they personally found icky, but there's always an initial social panic overestimating the mind-swaying powers of any new medium. See also- television, pinball legislation. Though, the awful behavior from Twitter's non-gaming fanbases suggests there might be a different common denominator.
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Mar 15, 2016 18:43
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Mokinokaro posted:That being said there is a trans woman character who sadly really feels like a token since your interaction with her is mostly talking about her gender. Seeing as how you misgender him here, the game clearly didn't talk about it enough.
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Mar 15, 2016 18:50
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poparena posted:Seeing as how you misgender him here, the game clearly didn't talk about it enough. Hopefully he didn't hurt the feelings of the video game character too badly.
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Mar 15, 2016 18:56
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poparena posted:Seeing as how you misgender him here, the game clearly didn't talk about it enough. I was just misremembering. Edit: \/ it's handled far better than the prostitute who used to be male in DA1 and 2 for sure. That was truly offensive. I also do like Iron Bull's stance on it. Krem is Krem and he finds it offensive if you prod him too much about their gender. Mokinokaro fucked around with this message at 19:21 on Mar 15, 2016 |
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Mar 15, 2016 19:08
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I actually thought the stuff with Krem was pretty decent. Yeah they bring up the fact that they're trans but they fit it into the world in an interesting way like asking him if he'd ever consider using magic to try and change his body and things like that. It's not perfect but I'm pretty happy how it turned out though.
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Mar 15, 2016 19:17
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If you want forced, cringe inducing gay characters, look no further than Janey Springs from Borderlands. She does absolutely nothing the entire game but go on and on and on about how much of a lesbian she is, while sexually harassing all the other female characters. It's so tone deaf.
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Mar 15, 2016 19:22
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WickedHate posted:If you want forced, cringe inducing gay characters, look no further than Janey Springs from Borderlands. She does absolutely nothing the entire game but go on and on and on about how much of a lesbian she is, while sexually harassing all the other female characters. It's so tone deaf. To be fair, everything in Borderlands is tone deaf and terribly written.
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Mar 15, 2016 19:24
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Andrast posted:To be fair, everything in Borderlands is tone deaf and terribly written. Absolutely.
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Mar 15, 2016 19:27
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Andrast posted:To be fair, everything in Borderlands is tone deaf and terribly written. The exception being the telltale game but it's still hamstrung by being part of the same universe
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Mar 15, 2016 19:30
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je1 healthcare posted:there's always an initial social panic overestimating the mind-swaying powers of any new medium. See also- television, pinball legislation. See also: Marshall McLuhan.
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Mar 15, 2016 19:34
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Mokinokaro posted:
My sole playthrough had me romance Iron Bull and it was probably the most rewarding romance I had played in a video game from the moment he declares "You want to ride the Bull."
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Mar 15, 2016 19:42
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Hbomberguy posted:Media still affects people and discussion of what ways it does it, and how and why it does it, is fairly important. It's fairly easy to dismiss that sort of discussion as 'psuedo [sic] sociology', but it certainly doesn't seem fake to advertising companies,who invest a shitton of money in figuring out how to better peddle a product, and who are then paid even more by other companies to help sell their stuff. if media doesn't influence people much and we're overestimating its powers, advertisers would have gone out of business a hundred years ago. I'm glad you brought up advertising, the reason why spending keeps climbing is partially because of a universal industry observation that advertising becomes less effective on the public over time. Not just for specific campaigns, but entire ad formats that the general public eventually tunes out. So they're obligated to constantly invest in new gimmicks to get our attention or subvert skepticism by better obscuring the source, via world-of-mouth and 'viral' campaigns. Sort of like how roaches develop resistances to poisons over time, as some ad execs have described it. And if advertising was all that powerful of a force, then 80% of new advertised products wouldn't fail. Though this is a bit of an apples and oranges comparison, since ad directors are trying to provoke real action from viewers, whereas game/Hollywood writers aren't (outside a virtual environment anyway). To tie things back around to moral panic, the reason why saturday morning cartoons sucked up until the 80s were due to the repeal of regulations limiting ad campaigns targeting kids. Most of the FCC regulations on children's programming came of an age when television was new and parents were worried it had brainwashing powers, and were peeled back after a generation grew up just fine. Whether or not Transformers was a net scourge on our national youth is another topic.
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Mar 15, 2016 20:01
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Rebooitng Xena wouldn't get that 90s fantasy camp feeling back of the original though.
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Mar 15, 2016 20:03
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