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I'm struggling to remember if anything relevant even happened in Fool Moon. I guess it gives you a bit more groundwork for the relationship between Harry and Susan. Oh and Murphy's partner gets gutted, but I think that's about it.
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Mar 15, 2016 14:51
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Skippy McPants posted:I'm struggling to remember if anything relevant even happened in Fool Moon. I guess it gives you a bit more groundwork for the relationship between Harry and Susan. Oh and Murphy's partner gets gutted, but I think that's about it. It introduces the Alphas, and why they look to Harry as a leader and what not.
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Mar 15, 2016 15:01
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I read a theory that Eb calls him Injun Joe as a reminder of the acts committed against Natives Americans that neither one did anything to stop, and that they shouldn't stand idly by in the future.
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Mar 15, 2016 15:10
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There are also a few times in later books where Murphy references the Loup Garou as a comparison to other supernatural threats. Plus Listens-To-Wind mentions Tera to Harry when they first meet in Summer Knight.
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Mar 15, 2016 15:13
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Murphy's partner is killed off in Fool Moon and that gets brought up a lot, which was already mentioned but alone is kind of a thing to be worthwhile even ignoring the Alphas.
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Mar 15, 2016 15:17
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Skippy McPants posted:I'm struggling to remember if anything relevant even happened in Fool Moon. I guess it gives you a bit more groundwork for the relationship between Harry and Susan. Oh and Murphy's partner gets gutted, but I think that's about it. Yeah, the Alphas was the only really big thing. Plus Murphy and Harry having a talk about how he needs to keep her in the loop, and the fact that the FBI agents got their magic werewolf belts from "someone", which might be important at some point, is all I could come up with. Oh, and the fact that Marcone and Harry work together in the end, which is a somewhat important step in their relationship.
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Mar 15, 2016 15:21
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AllTerrineVehicle posted:I might just be rationalising it but isn't there an exchange which implies this to be a sort of thing between them and not just anybody gets to call him Injun Joe? Listens-to-Wind elects to take it in a friendly manner, but that doesn't mean it isn't problematic. It'd be like calling your African American friend named James "friend of the family Jim". Even if you have a good intent behind it, it's still a loaded word.
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Mar 15, 2016 15:25
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jivjov posted:Listens-to-Wind elects to take it in a friendly manner, but that doesn't mean it isn't problematic. Yeah, except in LTW and McCoy's case, it's more like you call him that and your African American Best Friend just laughs and calls you Colonialist Honkey or somesuch and you both go grab a beer because that's just what you do. Close friendships are weird, man. thrawn527 posted:I've gotten a couple people reading the series now, and I've found the hardest part is getting them to even try. But once they start, they love it. My experience almost exactly. I got my entire group of friends to read it. They all loved it so much I'm still getting requests to run our periodic Dresden Files RPG, years later. Blasphemeral fucked around with this message at 15:37 on Mar 15, 2016 |
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Mar 15, 2016 15:32
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Blasphemeral posted:Yeah, except in LTW and McCoy's case, it's more like you call him that and your African American Best Friend just laughs and calls you Colonialist Honkey or somesuch and you both go grab a beer because that's just what you do. Close friendships are weird, man. Oh I'm not denying that at all. Between those two specific people (either the Wizards or my hypothetical example), they themselves are totally cool with it. But that doesn't stop it from being problematic in a wider context.
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Mar 15, 2016 16:00
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What wider context? That's literally what it is, a nickname between close friends.
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Mar 15, 2016 16:18
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I always thought the white council only worked because of the large amount of wizards. If they start turning away people because they are different then they wouldn't be as able to police the laws of magic. They also wouldn't be able to operate at the humanity saving level that the Accords seem to demand.
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Mar 15, 2016 16:21
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anilEhilated posted:What wider context? That's literally what it is, a nickname between close friends. Jivjov is somewhat impaired, that's the only wider context you need.
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Mar 15, 2016 16:34
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anilEhilated posted:What wider context? That's literally what it is, a nickname between close friends. Hell, the problem with "Injun Joe" is that that's his most prominent name. If I were reading a book series where the only major Asian character was called "Chink John" more often than not, I know I'd be pretty loving pissed.
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Mar 15, 2016 16:35
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No, theyre friends it's okay man. Friendship is magic.
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Mar 15, 2016 16:36
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I was going to say "I'm counting down the days until Butcher tosses a pony reference into his book" but I forgot he did it in Skin Game, just in a reasonably appropriate manner.
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Mar 15, 2016 16:38
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Mars4523 posted:Well, seeing that neither Ebenezer or Joseph are real people, It wouldn't have been too difficult for Butcher to assign the sole Native American character a nickname that's a racial slur. I'm not saying it makes using such names for people OK, just that if you haven't had a friendship where you each call each other horribly offensive and terrible names, you haven't lived. Dresden, our PoV character, is always very careful to call him by his actual name, Listens to Wind. The book is clearly not suggesting that everyone should start referring to minorities using racial slurs. That derail aside: I'm really looking forward to see more from LTW in the next book. Council shenanigans at last! Blasphemeral fucked around with this message at 17:19 on Mar 15, 2016 |
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Mar 15, 2016 17:15
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Blasphemeral posted:I'm not saying it makes using such names for people OK, just that if you haven't had a friendship where you each call each other horribly offensive and terrible names, you haven't lived. Also, I don't know about your background, but if somebody who called me their friend started referring to me exclusively as "Chink Mars4523", I'd be more than a little annoyed. And I can't make things explode with my mind. A "friend" throwing around racial/ethnic slurs as "Just jokes, guys!" can actually be incredibly uncomfortable.
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Mar 15, 2016 17:32
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Mars4523 posted:Also, I don't know about your background, but if somebody who called me their friend started referring to me exclusively as "Chink Mars4523", I'd be more than a little annoyed. And I can't make things explode with my mind. A "friend" throwing around racial/ethnic slurs as "Just jokes, guys!" can actually be incredibly uncomfortable. Nope, apparently according to Number Ten Cocks: Number Ten Cocks posted:Jivjov is somewhat impaired, that's the only wider context you need. If you have any issue at all with racial slurs being used casually as nicknames, you're just mentally handicapped.
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Mar 15, 2016 17:46
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Oh, that's right, I forgot it's the SA account of Patrick Rothfuss.Mars4523 posted:Considering that Dr. Listens to Winds lived through some of the worst periods of ethnic cleansing of Native Americans by whites, you'd think that he'd be a little more sensitive to that kind of racism.
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Mar 15, 2016 18:16
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Apropos of nothing else, I'm reminded of Peter Grant getting on Nightingale's case in the Rivers of London books about "Dude, don't call it black magic" which I thought struck a much better balance between establishing that Nightingale was a decent person of a different time and keeping it all lighthearted. Honestly, from the few times he hasn't ignored social consciousness stuff (that conversation with Titania about gay folks being Exhibit loving A), I'm quite happy for Butcher to continue pretending that racism wouldn't be a thing at all in a gathering of centuries-old people from all over the world.
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Mar 15, 2016 18:19
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anilEhilated posted:Or you could think he managed to come to peace with the past. Or that they use that nickname to remember and not repeat its mistakes. Or there's a story behind it, like McCoy starting off as a racist. Or it's an in-joke between the two of them. Or any other number of explanations. And that's perfectly fine as the context between those two characters. Nobody is arguing that. But what everyone seems really quick to overlook is that calling someone "Injun" at all has a wider context than just one person saying it to a second person.
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Mar 15, 2016 18:24
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Whoa! 40 new posts in the dresden files thread! Must of been some news or maybe a leak or some- Oh nope, just people screaming about racism. Should we move onto talking about misogyny
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Mar 15, 2016 18:28
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Exmond posted:Whoa! 40 new posts in the dresden files thread! Must of been some news or maybe a leak or some- Aren't "oh I saw X new posts but there wasn't an announcement" type posts probate-able now? If you want to discuss something else, feel free to post about it. This is a discussion board, and this thread in particular is about the Dresden Files. We're discussing a problematic element from the Dresden Files.
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Mar 15, 2016 18:30
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Really, it's about ethics in wizardry.
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Mar 15, 2016 18:33
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Whats everyone's favorite reference in the Dresden files? Im surprised there hasn't been any "Murphy's Law" references given Murphy being a huge character.
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Mar 15, 2016 18:33
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Exmond posted:Whats everyone's favorite reference in the Dresden files? Im surprised there hasn't been any "Murphy's Law" references given Murphy being a huge character. Has Butcher really refrained from that one? I'm honestly shocked by that. As for my favorite reference I'm still a huge fan of Molly's Star Trek mindscape
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Mar 15, 2016 18:35
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Blasphemeral posted:I'm not saying it makes using such names for people OK, just that if you haven't had a friendship where you each call each other horribly offensive and terrible names, you haven't lived. so when our pov character is constantly staring at every woman he meets and constantly thinking about sex with them and their bodies and how hot they look doing what they're doing right now what is being suggested?
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Mar 15, 2016 18:48
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jivjov posted:Has Butcher really refrained from that one? I'm honestly shocked by that. I'm pretty sure he has refrained! I can't remember much from the earlier books, maybe he made the reference there. I do like the Aliens references and many star wars references in the books.
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Mar 15, 2016 18:50
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It's potentially problematic in the real world where we are reading a story, not in the dresden-world. Two friends referring to each other by insulting names is fine and between them. A fictional character doing it without context, less so, because the people involved don't actually exist and it's entirely the author deciding it. Anyways I kinda want to run a game or two of Dresden RPG, and I'm thinking of running it similar to how they played D&D in Community. Basically me and one or two others would draw up maybe 10 character sheets along with a basic adventure, and let the 4-5 players choose whichever character they prefer. We'd try to keep it to one or two nights for the first one since we're all pretty new to tabletop. If we decide to make it a regular thing I'm probably going to structure it in such a way that people can drop in and out week to week without loving things up. My best idea so far is to make every character have some sort of loose affiliation with the local Paranet, allowing a convenient loophole for why everybody would know what happened the previous session. It would also work as both a plausible reason why a character isn't around all the time (they couldn't be reached, maybe we'll see them next time) and a way for people to join with a new character when Drizzt Fartbelcher the 69th inevitably bites the dust (hey I heard you guys needed some help, my friend Galactus Bongripper might be able to assist) Is there anything I should look out for regarding party composition? Or is the game flexible enough to allow the DM (probably me) to compensate a bit if, for example, nobody in the party has any support abitilities. Would also be interested in if any archetypes are especially over- or under-powered.
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Mar 15, 2016 19:00
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Exmond posted:Whats everyone's favorite reference in the Dresden files? Im surprised there hasn't been any "Murphy's Law" references given Murphy being a huge character. He has, he was speaking with butters in dead beat about how wizards give off a murphionic effect and butters told him to never let Murphy hear him say that.
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Mar 15, 2016 19:10
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Up Circle posted:Misogyny We weren't even talking about this, and it feels like you're getting a bit surly and just trying to pick fights. Maybe go outside for a while?  AllTerrineVehicle posted:It's potentially problematic in the real world where we are reading a story, not in the dresden-world. Two friends referring to each other by insulting names is fine and between them. A fictional character doing it without context, less so, because the people involved don't actually exist and it's entirely the author deciding it. Are you saying that, in your opinion, people can only ever write about a thing if they, personally, have experienced it from the perspective that they are writing from? Is that an accurate assessment of your position? AllTerrineVehicle posted:Anyways I kinda want to run a game or two of Dresden RPG, and I'm thinking of running it similar to how they played D&D in Community. Basically me and one or two others would draw up maybe 10 character sheets along with a basic adventure, and let the 4-5 players choose whichever character they prefer. We'd try to keep it to one or two nights for the first one since we're all pretty new to tabletop. Before the Paranet Papers came out, I had already transitioned my DFRPG game into the Monster of the Week system and it worked much better. I've since gone ahead and made custom playbooks for all of the characters. I like Fate, but I feel like it's much better for a short-run, pickup and play, kitchen-sink game rather than a long-running campaign in an established universe. YMMV, though. My extended gaming group almost exclusively plays games where the GM pre-builds characters based on player suggestions and feedback and it works well. We play so many different systems that it's both easier for only one person to master a new system before play, and also easier for the GM to avoid trap choices and prevent exploits in a system with known flaws. We've successfully played both BESM and Mutants and Masterminds in this way, long-term, without the issues that those systems normally crash into*. If you're dead-set on running Dresden using the actual Dresden Fate system, though, the best advice I can give you is be sure you have niche protection--characters should each have some thing they're the best at that others don't compete for spotlight time. Then, make situations varied and be sure everyone gets a chance to shine. Use compels as needed to achieve this. * A 36-point selective, universe-wide murder field, anyone? At chargen, nonetheless? Blasphemeral fucked around with this message at 19:26 on Mar 15, 2016 |
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Mar 15, 2016 19:23
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jivjov posted:If you have any issue at all with racial slurs being used casually as nicknames, you're just mentally handicapped. Probably, but you already established that with certainty in the Rothfuss thread. Mars4523 posted:Also, I don't know about your background, but if somebody who called me their friend started referring to me exclusively as "Chink Mars4523", I'd be more than a little annoyed. And I can't make things explode with my mind. A "friend" throwing around racial/ethnic slurs as "Just jokes, guys!" can actually be incredibly uncomfortable. I sort of understand this, but once when I was flirting with a Chinese girl and we bumped glasses I said "Chink" instead of "clink," and I still got laid, so I don't think it's universal. Dresden Files angle, uh, she liked to be choked, something something White Court. jivjov posted:Aren't "oh I saw X new posts but there wasn't an announcement" type posts probate-able now? Well, several of us are laughing at you for finding it problematic. Number Ten Cocks fucked around with this message at 19:40 on Mar 15, 2016 |
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Mar 15, 2016 19:37
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Blasphemeral posted:We weren't even talking about this, and it feels like you're getting a bit surly and just trying to pick fights. Seriously? I'm just pointing out a flaw in an already bad argument. You can't pick and choose when to use that line of thinking. Nobody is trying to pick a fight, but theres a lot of resistance to the idea that the books have some glaring issues that really stand out especially on a second or third read. 2nd edit: Not every person in the world thinks its okay to say offensive things, even to close friends. Some people have those kinds of friendships or those sorts of personalities, but that isn't universal. And that kind of attitude is mixed company is actually pretty offensive.
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Mar 15, 2016 19:49
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Blasphemeral posted:
Not at all. I'm merely suggesting that with this sort of thing authors should consider whether it actually adds anything to the narrative. As it stands, Ebeneezer could have used "Breezy" as a nickname instead and not really change anything about the story, so what's the point? At the very least it's a missed opportunity to include a bit of info about the two characters or the wider historical context that exists in Dresden's world. quote:RPG stuff Yeah, none of us are dedicated enough to stick with a long term campaign anyways, especially when there's so many other boardgames we could play, so monster of the week is what I'm gravitating towards.
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Mar 15, 2016 19:59
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Mar 15, 2016 20:09
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Up Circle posted:Seriously? I'm just pointing out a flaw in an already bad argument. You can't pick and choose when to use that line of thinking. Nobody is trying to pick a fight, but theres a lot of resistance to the idea that the books have some glaring issues that really stand out especially on a second or third read. The urges the Dresden is feeling are painted in the story as negative. They're explicitly stated to be bad and something forced on Dresden by the Winter Mantle. Rather than acting on those urges, he's supposed to be shown as heroic for resisting desires that he feels are wrong. It's the same reason we have villains in a story. Those urges are a villain of a different sort. Is this struggle handled the best way it possibly could be? Maybe, maybe not. It depends on if you find this fight of his compelling. Apparently you, personally, do not. That's fine, but it really feels like you're dredging it up just to try and start a fight, since we weren't discussing that topic at all, and you came up and sniped me with a very emotionally worded question: you didn't even capitalize your sentence for fucks sake. This particular argument goes around and around in this thread, and I'm not going to get into it with you any further. AllTerrineVehicle posted:Not at all. I'm merely suggesting that with this sort of thing authors should consider whether it actually adds anything to the narrative. But we don't know, yet, if it adds anything to the narrative or not. The Dresden Files are not a complete narrative yet--there's still something like 8 or 10 seriously heavy books remaining. What we can surmise pretty well, though, is that it's unlikely to be the author's casual racism dropped in, since we've gotten no other indication that he feels this way about minorities. It's a specific statement about Ebeneezer and, to a lesser extent, Listens to Wind as characters for, respectively, using this nickname and allowing someone with whom he's close to use this nickname for him. I think it's intentional that it's such a stark word choice. It's supposed to get the reader's attention. I'll be with you in being disappointed if something big doesn't come of it by the end. Up Circle posted:2nd edit: Not every person in the world thinks its okay to say offensive things, even to close friends. Some people have those kinds of friendships or those sorts of personalities, but that isn't universal. And that kind of attitude is mixed company is actually pretty offensive. I'll absolutely agree using a nickname such as this one in mixed company could make someone uncomfortable and should probably be avoided even among friends that have that relationship.
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Mar 15, 2016 21:07
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Number Ten Cocks posted:Probably, but you already established that with certainty in the Rothfuss thread. You seriously can't even grasp how someone might view calling a Native American character "Injun" is problematic? Like...even if you personally are totally cool with racism, you can't even wrap your head around the fact that someone else thinks it's problematic? And its not just me; several other posters agreed.
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Mar 15, 2016 22:02
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Holyeskimo posted:I read a theory that Eb calls him Injun Joe as a reminder of the acts committed against Natives Americans that neither one did anything to stop, and that they shouldn't stand idly by in the future. That was me. I just did a little more digging though and apparently Listens To Wind was from one of the Native American nations near the Great Lakes, which blows a hole in things because the Great Lakes and the Ozarks are about 500 miles apart. Also, if my theory were write then WW2 would have ended in a series of asteroids slamming into several bunkers in central Germany. Regardless of any theories rationalizing or contextualizing the nickname, writing casually racist jokes into your story without giving them some sort of context for what makes this specific interaction between old friends okay means you're just including contextless casual racism in your story and handwaving it as "it's just a little racism between friends." It lends itself to thinking along the lines of "but I'm friends with black people why can't I say nigga?  " And at the same time, I can acknowledge that the joke is fairly thoughtless writing from Butcher without it immediately making the books Racist With A Capital R or making Butcher into A Racist. I still like the books and have read most of them at least twice, and listened to most of them at least twice. I don't think Jim Butcher is A Racist and I don't think his books are Racist, but I think he wrote a joke that wasn't really in good taste. Not the end of the worldImpAtom posted:I was going to say "I'm counting down the days until Butcher tosses a pony reference into his book" but I forgot he did it in Skin Game, just in a reasonably appropriate manner. Wait what? I completely missed this. E: jivjov chill out. Getting confrontational about this stuff really, really, doesn't do any good unless you want to move from the "that thing you said was kinda racist" conversation to the "you are racist" conversation and want to burn bridges. Really good viewing, and I hope people on both sides of the conversation take three minutes out of their lives to listen to Jay Smooth (who has a beautiful voice and it is legitimately just pleasant to listen to words come out of his mouth) talk about the difference between the two conversations. Magres fucked around with this message at 22:13 on Mar 15, 2016 |
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Mar 15, 2016 22:03
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jivjov posted:You seriously can't even grasp how someone might view calling a Native American character "Injun" is problematic? Like...even if you personally are totally cool with racism, you can't even wrap your head around the fact that someone else thinks it's problematic? And its not just me; several other posters agreed. Yes, just as I can grasp why someone might smear their feces over their own face and scream epithets at passers by. I can entirely wrap my head around that, and I find its likely cause very similar to your reaction here.
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Mar 15, 2016 22:12
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Number Ten Cocks posted:I can grasp why someone might smear their feces over their own face and scream epithets at passers by. I can entirely wrap my head around that You should probably talk to someone about that, it's not healthy
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Mar 15, 2016 22:19
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