|
feedmegin posted:Uh...'in fact Nithard, one of the most important Carolingian authors was Charlemagne's illegitimate grandson through one of his daughters'...you don't say. I'm pretty sure that means he's Charlemagne's daughter's illegitimate son, not that he's Charlemagne's son.
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2016 22:22
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 9, 2024 04:49 |
|
|
mossyfisk posted:I've seen a particular anecdote show up several times in Charlemagne romances; one of Charlemagne's sons/nephews/cousins/paladins/etc (varies by story) is playing a game of chess and so enrages his opponent that they beat him to death with the board. Reminds me of these funny pics from the Go thread: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=2891609      
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2016 22:30
|
|
|
Thank you deadking you're the best poster in this thread
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2016 10:05
|
|
|
ChaseSP posted:Is it just me or is that chainmail butted mail instead of riveted. Because it really looks like that and really matters. It looks butted to me. My brother made a butted maille shirt for SCA and they are not all that strong, it's only for playing. It seems to me though, that they are using the wrong tools in the video. Cutting through metal is all about mass and force transfer. I'm going to 'sperg-out and suggest using a poleaxe or maul. Maille does nothing to stop it and if cranial damage is your goal, than that's the way to go. Also, machetes are specifically made to be soft so they don't break and can be straightened. Spring steel would cut and smash through, but that's a modern material. My brother has spring steel sword that will cut through mild steel like butter, but it's not period correct. It's fun to play with but dangerous to use in SCA play so it sits at my house.
|
|
#
?
Mar 15, 2016 00:35
|
|
|
mossyfisk posted:I've seen a particular anecdote show up several times in Charlemagne romances; one of Charlemagne's sons/nephews/cousins/paladins/etc (varies by story) is playing a game of chess and so enrages his opponent that they beat him to death with the board. Interesting! I can't say I've ever come across a reference to homicide by chessboard in the Carolingian sources. Do you know which romances include the anecdote? Rodrigo Diaz posted:Thank you deadking you're the best poster in this thread Aw shucks, thanks. I assume you work on later medieval England? What's the general relationship between the king and the aristocracy then? How does elite rebellion and reconciliation work in the later period?
|
|
#
?
Mar 15, 2016 08:13
|
|
|
This is probably the thread to ask a thing which was brought up elsewhere: stripping nobles of their titles in the feudal era due to treason or lesser crimes. It seems to be something that happens in fiction a lot more than in actual history. The English used their bills of attainder (most of which were not carried out anyway in exchange for fresh loyalty oaths), sure, but did that happen anywhere else on a regular basis?
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2016 13:10
|
|
|
deadking posted:
So I'll respond to this when I'm less busy with blacksmithing stuff but in the meantime check out this cool video of making a shovel with a medieval water-powered trip hammer. It's all a good reminder of how central water power was to the industrial boom of the Middle Ages. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zy1paSY82C8
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2016 04:26
|
|
|
Rodrigo Diaz posted:So I'll respond to this when I'm less busy with blacksmithing stuff but in the meantime check out this cool video of making a shovel with a medieval water-powered trip hammer. It's all a good reminder of how central water power was to the industrial boom of the Middle Ages. When you're done making nails and pocket knives, look here, they've updated their database: https://collections.royalarmouries.org/#/objects
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2016 16:09
|
|
|
JaucheCharly posted:When you're done making nails and pocket knives, look here, they've updated their database: https://collections.royalarmouries.org/#/objects 
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2016 16:21
|
|
|
Don't forget to click on Media, there's alot more of those sweet pics.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2016 16:43
|
|
|
feedmegin posted:Uh...'in fact Nithard, one of the most important Carolingian authors was Charlemagne's illegitimate grandson through one of his daughters'...you don't say. xthetenth posted:I'm pretty sure that means he's Charlemagne's daughter's illegitimate son, not that he's Charlemagne's son. As a horrible postscript to this line of thinking, I just remembered that Janet Nelson, one of the most respected Carolingian scholars in the world, tentatively suggested that Charlemagne may have actually done this: quote:Let’s return briefly to that word conlubernium used by Einhard to specify Charlemagne’s relationship with his daughters. It had another sense too, apart from comradeship, namely, illicit sexual relations. Was Einhard hinting that Charlemagne had practised incest? Would that explain the particularly sharp criticism of Charlemagne’s sexual behaviour in texts couched in the ‘safe’ form of visions of the next world, written only a few years after Charlemagne’s death? The afterglow of Charlemagne’s last years had the lurid tinge of a possibly unnatural, hence monstrous, sexual appetite. Did this reflect reality? Perhaps we should not be too surprised if it did. So there you have it, athough I personally find the argument very flimsy. The descriptions of Charlemagne in hell are pretty graphic, but given the highly charged political and moral climate of the early years of Louis the Pious' reign, I think they can be explained by more mundane sexual improprieties like all his concubines, which Einhard overtly acknowledges.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2016 18:45
|
|
|
How did various nobles prove that they had their titles? Were there any sorts of official documents regarding them?
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2016 19:51
|
|
|
SlothfulCobra posted:How did various nobles prove that they had their titles? Were there any sorts of official documents regarding them? Patents of Nobility (caveat: everything I learned from this time period was gleaned from repeated watchings of 'A Knights Tale')
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2016 20:12
|
|
|
Tell me about tournaments. Slightly more specifically, I'm interested in tournament rulesets from the 15th and 16th centuries. (Guess who went to see a Battle of the Nations -style exhibition match?  )
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2016 20:19
|
|
|
Battle of the Nations just makes me think that they should spend more time training judo than HEMA
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2016 22:19
|
|
|
Siivola posted:Tell me about tournaments. Slightly more specifically, I'm interested in tournament rulesets from the 15th and 16th centuries.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2016 22:20
|
|
|
DandyLion posted:Patents of Nobility (caveat: everything I learned from this time period was gleaned from repeated watchings of 'A Knights Tale') Was rock and roll as popular in the middle ages as depicted in popular media?
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2016 23:26
|
|
|
Rabhadh posted:Battle of the Nations just makes me think that they should spend more time training judo than HEMA Lmao you think they train in HEMA
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2016 23:41
|
|
|
They can't do HEMA because HEMA consists of either unarmored techniques that don't do poo poo against armor, or legit harnessfechten techniques that would maim/kill people.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2016 23:47
|
|
|
is hema the fat people pinball game?
|
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2016 02:37
|
|
|
deadking posted:Aw shucks, thanks. I assume you work on later medieval England? What's the general relationship between the king and the aristocracy then? How does elite rebellion and reconciliation work in the later period? Late 11th and and early-mid 12th century England and France, though France is honestly the more interesting side. Elite rebellion and reconcilliation, as far as I know, has no real hard and fast rules or mechanisms. However, the general trend is that rebellion is generally treated quite leniently. Even in the most severe cases, when the rebels plan to kill the king, there are very few executions. Rebels would typically have castles and/or titles confiscated, possibly some length of imprisonment, but would generally be returned to their status after a suitable amount of time. Let's look at some examples, in order of mounting severity. In 1107 the future Louis VI of France repudiated his wife, Lucienne of Rochefort, on the grounds of consanguinity. Feeling this an insult, Count Guy of Rochefort, Lucienne's father, rebelled against the lord-designate Louis by having one of his vassals, the castellan of Gournay, abduct some merchants on the royal highway. In response, Louis besieged Gournay, and Count Guy summoned help to relieve the castle. After a battle against the host of Theobald of Blois, Louis emerged victorious. The only consequence of note, for either Hugh of Pomponne (the aforementioned castellan) or Count Guy was that the castle of Gournay was given over to another of Louis' vassals. In the fighting, of course, a number of men were killed and others captured but beyond this the major nobles of the rebellion only suffer the loss of a castle. Even the garrison of the castle is only dismissed, not even ransomed. Guy died in 1108, but one of his relatives, Hugh III of Le Puiset, would prove to be a continued thorn in Louis' side. While Louis was king, he besieged and demolished Le Puiset on three separate occasions. After the first two sieges Hugh was disinherited or imprisoned, but eventually worked his way back into the king's favor time after time. Even after the third siege he was at enough liberty to leave for the Levant, though he died on the way. In a higher-stakes case, we look at the 1088 rebellion against King William II (Rufus) of England. This rebellion was organized chiefly by Odo of Bayeux, and sought to place William's older brother, Robert Curthose, on the English throne. The rebellion was saw only a few sieges and the swift capture of Odo (first at Pevensey, then at Rochester after he escaped his escort). Robert tried to send over £3000-worth of mercenaries, but these were destroyed on their way over, probably in a sea battle about which we know basically nothing. After the defeat of the rebels, the worst punishments to be handed out were disinheritance and exile, notably of both the major rebel clergymen William of Durham and Odo of Bayeux, though Bishop William was restored to the king's graces by 1091. Robert of Mortain, Odo's brother and co-conspirator, was both allowed to keep his lands and remain in England. For some idea of what happens to the attempted usurper in cases that are more seriously pursued than this (for example, if Curthose had landed in England to lead the rebellion himself) we can look to Robert's house imprisonment after Tinchebray in 1106. He would remain under house arrest until his death in 1134 (at about 83 years old, the poor bastard). But that goes from rebellion to straight-up civil war, which is a somewhat separate topic. Two side notes: William Rufus had trumpets blown as the surrendered rebels at Rochester departed the castle, which humiliated them terribly, but was probably the worst that a lot of the rebels of 1088 would suffer. This stands in sharp contrast to prior English practice, which more-or-less amounted to general execution for rebels. Last we can look at two cases where the rebel objective was to kill their overlord. The first was a failed attempt against William Rufus in 1095 led by Robert de Mowbray, Earl of Northumbria. William defeated the rebels in short order (for the sake of expediency I won't go into detail). Robert was imprisoned for the rest of his days, while William of Eu, another conspirator, fought a judicial duel to prove his innocence and lost. He was castrated and blinded, and was allowed to bleed out. Other nobles were disinherited. The second example, where the rebels succeeded, involved no nobleman higher than the Provost of Bruges on the rebel side. Specifically, I refer to the assassination of Charles the Good, Count of Flanders. This occurred in Bruges in 1127, and the Erembald clan, a noble family in Bruges, were the chief conspirators. After some knights loyal to the Erembalds hacked Charles to death while he was at prayer in the castle church, the citizens of the town rose up against them and laid siege to the castle. Eventually, men from Ghent and Louis VI showed up, and the besiegers wound up victorious. The details, again, aren't super important. What is important, however, is that all of the conspirators (and probably a few who could not prove their innocence) were executed. Their executions were very public, one being hung in a gibbet and dog entrails wrapped around his neck. In another instance we have the "Precipitation of Bruges" whereby a number of the guilty were hurled to their deaths from the top of the battlements. All in all rather more severe than any of the prior examples. So that's the range of punishment, with more-or-less typical examples depending on the danger to the crown (be it royal or comital) posed by the rebellion. It's worth noticing that over the course of the 13th century especially punishment becomes harsher, so you wind up with things like Thomas of Lancaster's execution after rebelling against Edward II.
|
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2016 04:53
|
|
|
P-Mack posted:They can't do HEMA because HEMA consists of either unarmored techniques that don't do poo poo against armor, or legit harnessfechten techniques that would maim/kill people.  (Okay so that might be illegal because of the hand on the face.) But no, it's all bashing and judo leg sweeps. 
|
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2016 08:37
|
|
|
Siivola posted:That's not entirely true. There are a bunch of things in the books that would work fine on dudes wearing twenty kilos of crap, without disabling them any more than repeated halberd blows to the head already do. There are all sorts of gnarly takedowns and disarms and other grappling stuff In Fiore that I would be entirely a-OK with the rules, and I bet the messer sources would have even more brilliant stuff. Also, cracking someone in the head is a harnessfechten technique.
|
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2016 12:50
|
|
|
Grand Prize Winner posted:Was rock and roll as popular in the middle ages as depicted in popular media? Freddy Mercury is timeless.
|
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2016 14:33
|
|
|
Grand Prize Winner posted:Was rock and roll as popular in the middle ages as depicted in popular media? Raymond of Toulouse actually joined the First Crusade because he wanted to hear a live performance of "Don't Stop Believin'" in Jerusalem.
|
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2016 22:46
|
|
|
Well its 'For KING and country!' cause Queen already has their poo poo covered.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2016 15:10
|
|
|
deadking posted:Interesting! I can't say I've ever come across a reference to homicide by chessboard in the Carolingian sources. Do you know which romances include the anecdote? I also remembered reading an incident like this in Bullfinch's Mythology. It's from Ogier the Dane, so it probably isn't very historical at all: Bullfinch's Mythology posted:Baldwin (Ogier's son) was attentive to Charlot (Charlemagne's son), and lost no occasion to be serviceable. The Prince loved to play chess, and Baldwin, who played well, often made a party with him.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2016 16:21
|
|
|
Dude from my club (Artur) traveled to the US to smack people with a sword. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JC4Yae57f70
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2016 21:24
|
|
|
Ultragonk posted:Dude from my club (Artur) traveled to the US to smack people with a sword. A noble quest.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2016 02:47
|
|
|
Neat! Do you know what he uses for back of head protection? I need a plate there and would really like a solution without the hood.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2016 07:28
|
|
|
Siivola posted:Neat! Do you know what he uses for back of head protection? I need a plate there and would really like a solution without the hood. It's something my fencing instructor whipped up himself, what he used escapes me at the moment I'll ask him what he used and get back to you.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2016 12:22
|
|
|
Siivola posted:Neat! Do you know what he uses for back of head protection? I need a plate there and would really like a solution without the hood. It's a piece of interlocking foam used for gym/garage floors. He cut it to fit the back of our masks.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2016 16:51
|
|
|
Oh, okay. I was kinda hoping there was a manufacturer I'd missed, to be honest. Might have to look into the local smiths and leatherworkers to get a more high-tech solution made. Some day. When I have that kind of money.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2016 16:59
|
|
|
Siivola posted:Oh, okay. I was kinda hoping there was a manufacturer I'd missed, to be honest. Might have to look into the local smiths and leatherworkers to get a more high-tech solution made. So you're looking for something like this? http://histfenc.com/productcart/vectir-occipital-overlay
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2016 17:03
|
|
|
Yeah, but not that thing. If you look at the shape, you'll notice the top is square so it doesn't fit in the round hole of the mask. I've heard it's generally a bad idea to try to wear that without the Vectir overlay. The other product on the market is this thing by Destroyer Modz and it looks perfect, but oh my God American shipping.  Edit: Oh, and we have a fencing thread, come hang out. Siivola fucked around with this message at 17:14 on May 8, 2016 |
|
#
?
May 8, 2016 17:10
|
|
|
Siivola posted:Yeah, but not that thing. If you look at the shape, you'll notice the top is square so it doesn't fit in the round hole of the mask. I've heard it's generally a bad idea to try to wear that without the Vectir overlay. Well try and get stabbed in the face rather than in the back of the head  And I probably should have posted that video in that fencing thread, don't hurt me mods!
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2016 17:19
|
|
|
Why did the early modern French nobles put up with their king spending bazillion dollars and making them his domestic servants and dressing as a non-warrior.
Baron Porkface fucked around with this message at 22:37 on May 8, 2016 |
|
#
?
May 8, 2016 22:35
|
|
|
Baron Porkface posted:Why did the early modern French nobles put up with their king spending bazillion dollars and making them his domestic servants and dressing as a non-warrior. Because for the majority of the period you're talking about he a) was really loving successful at solidifying royal power and consolidating what we consider France today and b) didn't bother to call the estates to raise taxes for him. Feudal relationships are very complex and have a whole net of duties and responsibilities oneach side.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2016 22:46
|
|
|
because it increased the glory of france and if they could be seen doing great things for the king in public by other nobles they'd be respected more also they didn't "put up with" poo poo-- half those nobles goddamn hated him for religious reasons, france had a bunch of civil wars at that time. hell, their best general decided to work for spain for a few years during one of these wars also Louis XIII was really into martial accouterments, the hell are you talking about edit: and there were public relations backlashes every now and then, like when Louis XIII banned duelling by nobles because only the king should be permitted the legitimate use of deadly force. (Henri IV had also tried this but it didn't stick.) Some young dude fought a duel right under his window to register his displeasure with the new edict. Richelieu had him executed. edit 2: lol this happened more than once in the 20s, awesome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C3%A7ois_de_Montmorency-Bouteville HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 07:25 on May 9, 2016 |
|
#
?
May 9, 2016 07:10
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 9, 2024 04:49 |
|
|
HEY GAL posted:edit 2: lol this happened more than once in the 20s, awesome Oh hey, his daughter married a de Coligny. I recognize that name!
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2016 08:13
|
|
