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It'd be more interesting if maybe people tried comparing Rey to the numerous other female leads in the world of film. How does Rey compare to Scarlett O'Hara? Or Sarah Connor? To Furiosa, Katniss, Hanna, Ripley, Beatrix Kiddo, endless final girls in slasher flicks (how does Rey stack up against a Sidney Prescott or a Nancy Thompson or Laurie Strode?), or even numerous anime characters like Paprika (or any Kon lead, as they were all women in his movies, minus Tokyo Godfathers in which a young woman shared the lead with a pre-op trans woman and a man), Chihiro from Spirited Away or Kiki from Kiki's Delivery Service, or Natsuki from Summer Wars (or Makoto from The Girl Who Leapt Through Time or Hana or Ame from Wolf Children)? Or the women from Faster Pussycat, Kill Kill? What about Phyllis from Double Indemnity? Sophie from Sophie's Choice, or Susan Orlean from Adaptation., or Clarice Starling from Silence of The Lambs or Rachel from Rachel Getting Married? Shoshanna from Inglorious Basterds? Jackie Brown from Jackie Brown? To simply grade her based on the leads of the same franchise she's a part of shorthands any actual analysis of Rey as a character in actual film history. It handcuffs the arguments down to "well, compared to the men in this series..." which can only lead to claims of double standards and proclamations that she's too competent, which is not a problem with the character, it's a problem with the story itself, where she never really has that "skinning the cat" near-total-failure experience that can even befall the supercomptent and makes for drama. The movie never pushes her through a trial by fire the way, say, Katniss does by surviving her first Hunger Games or how Sarah Connor has to get away from a robotic specter of death or how Scarlett has her ransacked and intended plantation left under her hand after narrowly escaping the burning of Atlanta. In fact, weirdly enough, the most obvious parallel character to Rey, all things considered, is Bella Swann. Just a girl who considers herself distinctly average and invisible but everyone else finds to be exceptional. Now SMG's remarking that Rey is the monster makes a lot more sense.
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Mar 14, 2016 07:20
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exactly that scene with han is great, and it's also amazing that leia's big escape plan in the hallway dumps everyone into the trash. (where han almost kills them all shooting his blaster at the door) the only scene where rey makesa real mistake it sends up saving han and she fixes it almost instantly. It seems to me that the movie think if rey ever looks bad then the audience will hate her.
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Mar 14, 2016 07:25
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The Cameo posted:To simply grade her based on the leads of the same franchise she's a part of shorthands any actual analysis of Rey as a character in actual film history. It handcuffs the arguments down to "well, compared to the men in this series..." which can only lead to claims of double standards and proclamations that she's too competent, which is not a problem with the character, it's a problem with the story itself, Fair enough. The Cameo posted:In fact, weirdly enough, the most obvious parallel character to Rey, all things considered, is Bella Swann. Just a girl who considers herself distinctly average and invisible but everyone else finds to be exceptional. This, I like.
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Mar 14, 2016 07:30
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I still hold to the theory that Episode 9 is going to devote at least half the film to giving Rey a low-point; stubbornly failing to approach Luke's tests in a nonviolent fashion, feeling like Luke is holding her back, then ultimately charging off and losing to a Kylo/First Order that, humbled, actually listened to their mentor and finds a purpose beyond "Make the Empire Great Again".
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Mar 14, 2016 07:31
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There is no conspiracy against you, brianwilly. Plenty of films have been criticized on similar grounds - like Jurassic World, where the male lead is an altogether ethically dubious character, yet diegetic criticism of his worldview was quite evidently cut from the film. Rey is an interesting character in ways that are occluded when you go into the whole "strong female protagonist" thing. That always ironically ends up with the characters' actual personalities ignored. Case in point: Rey's impressively dumb rejoinder about being 'hunted by a creature' betrays her over-identification with BB-8, yet is dismissed as a statement of generic assertiveness by fans. Rey becomes interesting when you note that she is projecting all of her issues onto BB, when BB is an individual with his own things going on (a fact that is, not-coincidentally, heavily downplayed in the film). You should note that BB and Rey barely interact. The Cameo posted:In fact, weirdly enough, the most obvious parallel character to Rey, all things considered, is Bella Swann. Just a girl who considers herself distinctly average and invisible but everyone else finds to be exceptional. It's definitely as I wrote earlier: Rey is a 'politically-corrected' version of Bella Swan, who fights for the humans and attempts to kill Edward. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 07:41 on Mar 14, 2016 |
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Mar 14, 2016 07:34
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:It's definitely as I wrote earlier: Rey is a 'politically-corrected' version of Bella Swan, who fights for the humans and attempts to kill Edward. Gross they're related dude.
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Mar 14, 2016 09:30
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porfiria posted:Gross they're related dude. I don't think it's wrong to compare Rey with Luke or Anakin. Sometimes it's not useful or relevant, sometimes it is. Luke has a better-defined backstory and arguably loses more, goes through more change than Rey. He's not as cautious or as tough, but not being as cautious just means being more inquisitive, which allows us -- by proxy -- to understand the film's setting better, while not being as tough sets him on a different path than hers; he approaches others for help, instead of the other way around. These are useful ways to observe a character, and inform the themes and structures of the story. These comparisons only become annoying when they're used as measures of how characters are "supposed" to be. "How come Rey didn't go through as much change?" "How come Anakin's not as cautious?" Who cares? They're different characters. They're in different films. There's no reason for them to have the same draws or drawbacks. And then, these comparisons become downright worthless when they're used to set up skeevy-rear end double standards. Luke is inarguably a better pilot than Rey and Anakin is a better mechanic (and a better pilot)...but apparently Rey is still too good at both those things? Why? So can she be very good at one thing, say, using a lightsaber, if she's not as good at those other things? How good is this character allowed to be before she crosses the arbitrary too-good threshold, and why does this threshold not exist for Luke and Anakin? That's shady, y'all. You can't not see how shady that is. And it's particularly egregious considering that the film goes out of the way to provide clear reasons for Rey's skills. On this specific front I would even set Rey above Furiosa who -- for all her vivid backstory -- it's never really explained why she's the lone female, skilled, respected driver in the midst of a flatly-misogynist society. (To clarify: I don't mind that MM:FR doesn't explain it. But comparatively, Rey's skills are better-explained)
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Mar 14, 2016 10:32
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Mh i really would say rey is a better pilot than luke but not as good as anakin. but anikin really isn't on a heroes journey like rey is and maybe we will see reys prodigy status lead to a fall like anakin like even when she doesn't sell BB8 we get a prior scene where she turns in a thing and gets a small amount of food a fraction of a portion (though it seemed enough for a small meal to me) so she goes out again finds a new part and turns it in for a small pile of food like at least a meal or two's worth, ok then the dealer sees BB8 and offers her a ton and she says no and takes the small pile . There's no real sacrifice there. It would have been a much better scene in my opinion if the choice was sell BB8 or go hungry, but instead it's Sell BB8 or you have to work tomorrow.
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Mar 14, 2016 10:58
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quote:I'm just saying Rey is a weak character because she doesn't have that human moment. Rey putting on that helmet or smiling like a goof after yanking the thing out of the Falcon served to do that well, to me.
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Mar 14, 2016 13:12
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Mar 14, 2016 14:10
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Elfgames posted:Mh i really would say rey is a better pilot than luke but not as good as anakin. but anikin really isn't on a heroes journey like rey is and maybe we will see reys prodigy status lead to a fall like anakin Luke dog fights veteran star fighter pilots as part of a massive air battle of which he is like one of 5 survivors. Rey barely escapes 2 tie fighters with the help of her friend (who does something which required military training that luke also did in 2 seconds). Poe Dameron is the only guy arguably better than any ot/pt pilot. Droid, please! ( translate portion into serving size and realize rey is living on nothing and you will understand her sacrifice to rightly not sell bb8)
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Mar 14, 2016 14:48
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I've criticized the movie for punting a lot of issues (Ren's background and motivations, the dynamic between the Resistance and the Republic, Rey's origins) down the line, but I don't really have an issue with the first movie keeping just how dangerous Rey is in the subtext, as long as it pays off in the long run. She's eventually going to need to pay the piper for her power, but I wouldn't expect that it all be paid up front. As I think SMG has suggested, like many elements in TFA she's being set up as a strawman to be torn down in the sequels, but in her specific case I don't see that as a problem. General Dog fucked around with this message at 14:54 on Mar 14, 2016 |
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Mar 14, 2016 14:48
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Toilet Mouth posted:I've criticized the movie for punting a lot of issues (Ren's background and motivations, the dynamic between the Resistance and the Republic, Rey's origins) down the line, but I don't really have an issue with the first movie keeping just how dangerous Rey is in the subtext, as long as it pays off in the long run. She's eventually going to need to pay a price for her power, but I wouldn't expect that it all be paid up front. I don't think we'll see her torn down as much as we would if this were explicitly a new trilogy or ennead or any other set number of movies. As long as she's popular, I think a full heel turn (even just for one movie) is unlikely ("you made the only kickass female Star Wars protagonist evil HOW DARE YOU").
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Mar 14, 2016 15:01
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homullus posted:I don't think we'll see her torn down as much as we would if this were explicitly a new trilogy or ennead or any other set number of movies. As long as she's popular, I think a full heel turn (even just for one movie) is unlikely ("you made the only kickass female Star Wars protagonist evil HOW DARE YOU"). Yeah I don't really see a full heel turn either, more just a case she and her allies and the audience come to the realization that no one wielding the amount of power and skill she is can maintain the veneer of kindness and nobility that she does in TFA. She should be difficult to work with, as the extraordinarily gifted often are. Maybe she starts to buy into her own legend a bit too much.
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Mar 14, 2016 15:16
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Toilet Mouth posted:Yeah I don't really see a full heel turn either, more just a case she and her allies and the audience come to the realization that no one wielding the amount of power and skill she is can maintain the veneer of kindness and nobility that she does in TFA. She should be difficult to work with, as the extraordinarily gifted often are. Maybe she starts to buy into her own legend a bit too much. Or when confronted with criticism, takes her ball and goes home to sulk like Achilles.
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Mar 14, 2016 15:18
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I think it's pretty safe to say that her portrayal in Ep. 8 will be less flattering than in TFA, the question is just whether the character flaws presented will have any real substance (she's a lone wolf, she's arrogant, she's reckless, she was abandoned for good reason,etc.), or whether they'll be relatively toothless and safe (workaholic, too loyal, cares too much, other stuff you'd list as "weaknesses" in a job interview).
General Dog fucked around with this message at 15:33 on Mar 14, 2016 |
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Mar 14, 2016 15:23
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Toilet Mouth posted:I think it's pretty safe to say that her portrayal in Ep. 8 will be less flattering than in TFA, the question is just whether the character flaws presented will have any real substance (she's a lone wolf, she's arrogant, she's reckless, she was abandoned for good reason,etc.), or whether they'll be relatively toothless and safe (workaholic, too loyal, cares too much, other stuff you'd list as "weaknesses" in a job interview). This is important to stress. When people talk about a character's flaws, they don't mean that Rey briefly unplugs the wrong cable while hacking into a vehicle she's never encountered before. An actual character flaw would involve showing that it was wrong to kill those gangsters - which, of course, never happens. Even Rey's accidents are validated. The Reptar scene is of course metaphorical: Rey jumps into a conflict she doesn't understand and, arbitrarily taking sides, accidentally unleashes horrific dark violence that threatens to consume everyone. But when Anakin accidentally kills thousands of people in Phantom Menace, it's satirical: a pre-teen is lauded for accidentally killing thousands of people and betraying his own ideals in the process. TFA is closer to the easily-misunderstood first half of Episode 6, where the Rancor - kept all its life in a tiny box, and forced to kill - is thoughtlessly eliminated and its death is played for laughs.
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Mar 14, 2016 19:56
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I found the best new Star Wars character. 
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Mar 14, 2016 21:28
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The episode VIII spoiler thread is here: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3748341
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Mar 14, 2016 21:30
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The reason they never say the name of Yoda's species is because it's copyrighted. He's a "Muppet"
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Mar 14, 2016 21:39
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homullus posted:That is ridiculous. Her name means More Canada in Spanish; if this weren't obvious enough, she was played by a Canadian Hispanic actress, and all the Takodana scenes were filmed in a Canadian jungle. What?
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Mar 14, 2016 21:44
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Cnut the Great posted:What? Don't tell me you don't see it now. Takodana is space Canada, to which our protagonists flee to escape American Imperialism, only to find out that Uncle Sam can reach there too. Actually I was just teasing you because I think Kanata/cantina was a big stretch.
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Mar 14, 2016 21:55
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homullus posted:Don't tell me you don't see it now. Takodana is space Canada, to which our protagonists flee to escape American Imperialism, only to find out that Uncle Sam can reach there too. I'm about 90% sure that's where the name actually came from. She lives in the Mos Eisley Cantina.
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Mar 14, 2016 21:58
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Bongo Bill posted:The reason they never say the name of Yoda's species is because it's copyrighted. He's a "Muppet" That ain't a problem any more.
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Mar 14, 2016 22:08
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WTF your previous post about her was stated as fact
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Mar 14, 2016 22:08
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Detective No. 27 posted:That ain't a problem any more. True, but now the problem is that he isn't in the movies any more.
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Mar 14, 2016 22:15
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Excuse me, Muppets specifically refer to the felt-puppet characters created or inspired by Jim Henson and owned by the Walt Disney Corporation EXCEPT for Sesame Street, which is its own separate entity. Yoda would actually fall under the Jim Henson Creature umbrella, except that he was technically owned by George Lucas, Lucasfilm, and built with the help of ILM. But since Disney also owns the Creature Workshop as well as Lucasfilm, I guess you can... 
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Mar 14, 2016 22:24
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His parents are Kermit and Miss Piggy.
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Mar 14, 2016 22:44
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I like that they added a female yoda in Ep1 then just kind of... got rid of her. "Welp gently caress this, throw that creepy muppet in the trash!"
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Mar 14, 2016 23:43
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My favorite scene of Episode 1 is the one with Andy Dick in the Jedi Council.
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Mar 15, 2016 01:44
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Jerkface posted:I like that they added a female yoda in Ep1 then just kind of... got rid of her. "Welp gently caress this, throw that creepy muppet in the trash!" I believe the EU tells us she was killed by gundarks or something.
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Mar 15, 2016 02:55
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Jerkface posted:I like that they added a female yoda in Ep1 then just kind of... got rid of her. "Welp gently caress this, throw that creepy muppet in the trash!" Was it this thread where someone posted the picture of their Yaddle photo/fleshlight setup or whatever?
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Mar 15, 2016 06:37
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Jerkface posted:I like that they added a female yoda in Ep1 then just kind of... got rid of her. "Welp gently caress this, throw that creepy muppet in the trash!" That's probably closer to the definition of fan service than a lot of what was posted. Especially since KOTOR - the actual fan service video game - did basically the same thing except it was a color swapped Yoda on Dantooine.
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Mar 15, 2016 06:42
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Did Yaddle even talk? She should have been the head of the jedi council and spoke like a normal old lady alien, proving that Yoda's just a weird little creep. Since the EU was destroyed, Yaddle's canon reason for going away is just 'By the time of the Clone Wars, she was no longer on the Council.'
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Mar 15, 2016 07:57
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I may be misremembering but I think Yaddle was like a first attempt at making a new Yoda puppet for Episode 1 but it turned out creepy so they essentially went "welp better try again, gently caress just throw a wig on this one we'll use it as an extra"
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Mar 15, 2016 11:54
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Jerkface posted:Did Yaddle even talk? She should have been the head of the jedi council and spoke like a normal old lady alien, proving that Yoda's just a weird little creep. Since the EU was destroyed, Yaddle's canon reason for going away is just 'By the time of the Clone Wars, she was no longer on the Council.' She sent explicit texts to a youngling.
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Mar 15, 2016 13:37
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computer parts posted:That's probably closer to the definition of fan service than a lot of what was posted. Yaddle is a pretty inexplicable character but at the end of the day I'm glad she exists. For the jokes.
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Mar 15, 2016 14:52
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micpp posted:I may be misremembering but I think Yaddle was like a first attempt at making a new Yoda puppet for Episode 1 but it turned out creepy so they essentially went "welp better try again, gently caress just throw a wig on this one we'll use it as an extra" And then the actual Yoda puppet turned out awful too.
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Mar 16, 2016 02:48
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It's insane how much it looked like Mark Hamill.
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Mar 16, 2016 06:40
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Pops Mgee posted:And then the actual Yoda puppet turned out awful too. I don't think it was the puppet. The TPM puppet probably really was better than the original. What people forget is that a large part of what made Yoda work in ESB is that it often took hours and hours just to get a few minutes of Yoda footage that didn't look totally fake. And this was in dim lighting conditions with only one human actor to take into account. It was by all accounts incredibly draining work, and it resulted in several additional scenes of Yoda training Luke not being finished, because they simply ran out of time. With TPM, you had Yoda in a lot of relatively brightly lit environments with a bunch of human actors, all in the same shot at the same time. And I don't think anyone was exactly eager to repeat the soul-draining experience of ESB. I think Lucas thought he could still make it work, since the new puppet was technically much more realistic-looking than the old one. There are some shots and angles where he looks pretty good, I think:  But it's pretty much impossible to keep up that level of consistent quality unless you're willing to basically subordinate everything else in the movie to the Yoda puppet's exhausting demands. You ever wonder why the Yoda puppet doesn't look as good in ROTJ as it did in ESB?  It's basically the same reason. No one--not the crew, not the actors, not the director--wanted to deal with that poo poo. Because it was unreasonable. The sad truth is, you just can't make a rubber hand-puppet look 100% like a real, living, breathing creature unless you're willing to risk bankrupting your movie while working your crew and actors to the point of insanity. You think actors hate acting in front of greenscreen? Ask them how much they like doing dozens and dozens of repetitive and time-consuming takes talking to a completely silent puppet mouthing unintelligible words at them. Ask Mark Hamill how much he liked it. Cnut the Great fucked around with this message at 15:23 on Mar 16, 2016 |
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Mar 16, 2016 15:10
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