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There's been a few like Lords of the Fallen which wasn't good but scratched that itch for some. But really nobody is making a Souls style game. Even Titan Souls is more Shadow of the Colussus. Like rogue like is synonymous with "permadeath" and "procedural generation" Souls style just means "difficult" because the past decade of big budget games have been intentionally easy to appease the widest audience. Part of Demon's Souls' marketing was a game that respected and demanded your attention. There's no easy mode or shortcuts, you have to master the developer's challenges. Had Die by the Sword been on PS2 or something we would've seen a shift happen earlier.
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Mar 16, 2016 22:38
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Souls style definitely means more than just "difficult" if it's not being thrown around randomly by internet nerds. S&S, for example, has an extremely similar aesthetic, lore through item descriptions, dropping souls (I mean "salt") at death and having to pick it back up, bonfires (I mean "sanctuaries") etc. Lord of the Fallen was obviously "souls style" as well, although Titan Souls obviously is not, despite its name.
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Mar 16, 2016 22:52
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Of course it means more than that, just like roguelike means like-rogue, but that's what we're accustomed to. You say "inspired by Souls" and anyone who's not the most hardcore Souls player will think "Oh, this game will challenge me and not hold my hand along the way." On Idle Thumbs they were talking about how Far Cry Primal blocks out skills and gives you the specific story point at which they unlock and that's the trend strongly established in the 7th generation of consoles that Demon Souls bucked. I don't know how else you'd define it. From Software has a specific style they've been implementing since 1995 but I'd love to establish another descriptor for the kind of game that embodies the elements people like in them. It's not necessary but Souls inspired is becoming the new roguelike in eye-rolling conversations to the point where everyone has to apologize before using it.
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Mar 16, 2016 23:00
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Ni-oh is a souls clone right down to taking the equipment plip noise from 2.
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Mar 16, 2016 23:06
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Why do people roll their eyes if you call a roguelike game a roguelike? It seems like a perfectly fine word to convey to someone that the game has permadeath where you restart the "run" over. I don't understand what's more wrong with that word or "souls-like" than calling something a metroidvania or MOBA or something. I feel like you are saying roguelike games are over-saturated or something, but I don't see anything wrong with how it accurately describes a certain subset of games. So It Goes fucked around with this message at 23:47 on Mar 16, 2016 |
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Mar 16, 2016 23:41
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People don't like it because it used to more narrowly apply to games like Dungeon Crawl and Nethack, but now seems to mean anything with some random elements.
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Mar 16, 2016 23:46
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It's hard to call roguelike an accurate description when the definition has been watered down pretty far at this point. Classical roguelikes were games that were actually very much like Rogue, in that they were top-down ascii-art turn-based RPG dungeon crawlers with permadeath and procedural generation. Only the last two bits are still considered important to be a roguelike, and the permadeath isn't even as all-in as it used to be (see stuff like Rogue Legacy or Crypt of the Necrodancer where you unlock stuff for later runs.) Another part is that it's just sort of an overused buzzword that doesn't carry a huge amount of meaning anymore so you can attach it to a lot of things, and to some people the procedural generation that 'roguelike' mainly implies now leads to empty worlds without much interesting content. NmareBfly fucked around with this message at 23:55 on Mar 16, 2016 |
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Mar 16, 2016 23:49
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Do people have examples of the word being applied to the "wrong" games, so to speak? I only ever hear it applied to games like Binding of Isaac, Spelunky, Crypt of the Necrodance, Rogue Legacy, Darkest Dungeon etc. I don't hear it applied to any given "procedural" game like Minecraft or Terraria. I guess I've never viewed roguelike as a marketing buzzword. I just thought it was a genre descriptor that accurately conveyed to me how all of the above games involve doing "runs" through procedurally generated content with death permanently ending the run. If one wanted to stop using roguelike specifically as a word, it would definitely be helpful to replace it with something that still accurately conveyed that genre. Similarly, if enough "souls-like" games were actually made, it seems like it would be a helpful word to use. If Bloodborne was made by a different developer, calling it "souls-like" would succinctly and accurately convey to me that it is an action game that plays more akin to Dark Souls than God of War. I don't think there is anything wrong with having short phrases that describes a games genre in more detail than "action".
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Mar 16, 2016 23:56
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None of the games you listed would be considered proper traditional roguelikes by someone inclined to be semantic or grognardy. Now that I think of it playing Necrodancer with the bard (or whichever character it is where you don't have to worry about being on beat) is a very simplified traditional roguelike but that kinda goes against the point of the game. Note that I'm not saying they're NOT roguelikes, because language changes over time. The definition of it being a run-based game is basically what they are now but not what they originally were. Here's the video that played after the rogue one I linked that I just skimmed through where a dude goes through a bunch of what some would consider real roguelikes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-D_369WdQU Edit: switched to a different video that isn't an hour long. This one includes Isaac and FTL but you'll note almost all the other ones are tiled turn-based dungeon crawlers -- for a long time that's what roguelike meant. By the same token, calling a game darksouls-ish to me implies that it'll be hard, the world will be pretty bleak, and you won't generally unlock many new mechanics through gameplay (ie, you'll USUALLY be doing the same sort of stuff to the last boss that you do the first, but maybe with a bigger shinier sword.) The problem is that these are not universally agreed upon definitions, so people will squabble about what exactly a descriptor means and some people will look at a store page and decide it's a misleading adjective. I dunno that there's a real way to win here -- games and movies and all media have always been described as 'it's X meets Y with maybe a splash of Z!' NmareBfly fucked around with this message at 00:20 on Mar 17, 2016 |
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Mar 17, 2016 00:03
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So It Goes posted:Do people have examples of the word being applied to the "wrong" games, so to speak? I only ever hear it applied to games like Binding of Isaac, Spelunky, Crypt of the Necrodance, Rogue Legacy, Darkest Dungeon etc. I don't hear it applied to any given "procedural" game like Minecraft or Terraria. That's the problem people initially had. Modern roguelikes lack traditional features like a hunger clock (where every step drains a limited resource), turn based I-go-the-world-goes movement, or a focus on weighing the risk of unidentified items. They're more accurately like the Japanese Mystery Dungeon games where you're doing short runs that unlock persistent features, a series that was specifically designed to be console friendly roguelikes. But as games like FTL and Rogue Legacy brought roguelike into mainstream attention it's gone from "game like Rogue" to "procedurally generated game that ends when you die." There's nothing wrong with genre labels but there is a point where it becomes a cliche to use them until people get comfortable with it. There are very, very few games that play or feel like Dark Souls which is why people roll their eyes when you say "This is a very Souls-like feature." We know you mean the game is hard or relies on ambient storytelling or visual clues, but we don't have a better word for it. I can't think of many other examples, it's kind of a recent thing. People ironically embraced Doom clone for a while but JRPG and WRPG got some grumbling around the PS2 era because RPGs were becoming less traditional. Most people these days settle on just RPG, we don't need to attach Japanese or Western to the title anymore.
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Mar 17, 2016 00:37
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Saying roguelike is as good a term as metroidvania or MOBA is funny, since those are the other two big genres that people argue about the common name for.
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Mar 17, 2016 03:33
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I guess I have successfully avoided the sperg-ier part of the internet for games because I have never in my life heard anyone argue about what a MOBA or metroidvania entails or what games they are properly attributed toward. Not that I seek out that sort of stuff so I don't know if that stuff is mostly contained within steam comments or reddit threads or what. On the flip side, I have heard enough dumb music and book genre semantics to last a lifetime, and a lot of that was in real life. I feel people harping over genre labels is something that gets more and more annoying the older you get (along with ranking things).
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Mar 17, 2016 03:55
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I'm amazed you managed to listen to a single gaming podcast where those arguments didn't come up, they're ubiquitous.
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Mar 17, 2016 03:59
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PaletteSwappedNinja posted:I'm amazed you managed to listen to a single gaming podcast where those arguments didn't come up, they're ubiquitous. But is Ryu a wizard?
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Mar 17, 2016 04:30
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the disconnect between people with the word 'rougelike' seems like it has alot to do with whether a person describes a game genre by what the game's systems do or describes a genre by what the player does to interact with the game
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Mar 17, 2016 05:19
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"Roguelike" became such a popular designator for indie games for a couple years there that it was almost as useless a descriptor as saying your game has "RPG elements."
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Mar 17, 2016 05:36
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Yeah, "roguelike" to me implies turn based, on a grid, random maps, no savescumming - or at least restricted savescumming, I'd call Mystery Dungeon a roguelike even though you can reload from before you enter a dungeon. Necrodancer is definitely a roguelike, for example, even though it has the rhythm element added to the formula. I think people would be less peeved about the watering down of the definition if "roguelike elements" had caught on the way "RPG elements" did, but most people didn't know what a roguelike was until the recent surge of games with roguelike elements so they just heard the name and decided Spelunky and Binding of Isaac were roguelikes. I don't lose sleep over it, but it does make it a little harder to find actual roguelikes to play.
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Mar 17, 2016 06:22
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Dungeons of Dredmor is a textbook roguelike, so take a look at that and compare it to, like, rogue legacy or some poo poo, and you'll understand the difference
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Mar 17, 2016 06:34
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So It Goes posted:I guess I have successfully avoided the sperg-ier part of the internet for games because I have never in my life heard anyone argue about what a MOBA or metroidvania entails or what games they are properly attributed toward. Not that I seek out that sort of stuff so I don't know if that stuff is mostly contained within steam comments or reddit threads or what. It's a little different, to be fair, since with roguelike the argument is usually "what constitutes roguelike" or "is this actually a roguelike" while with the other two the argument is usually "why do we call this that way, there has to be a better term." There was so much pushback against metroidvania, in particular, that people almost seemed willing to adopt "Igavania" when it was proposed during the Bloodstained kickstarter. Personally I think the argument about genre names is pretty dumb, but I can feel what I assume to be the same frustration as those arguing about it whenever one of my idiot friends calls a third person shooter an "FPS," then rolls their eyes like I'm being pedantic if I try to correct them.
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Mar 17, 2016 17:40
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steve owns, makes p great pods more steve pls and more "videogames" in the theme song tia
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Mar 18, 2016 14:04
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Thumbs has been great lately, which I'm chalking up to Firewatch having shipped. I'm also loving Crate & Crowbar still, them poking through The Division today made me really happy for some reason. Also I'm really loving Retronauts more than I did before, even just going through the backlog. The hosts are kind of endearingly nerdy and super knowledgeable about old games and their development. Weird learning something new about like Ocarina of Time or whatever. Good pods!
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Mar 18, 2016 17:31
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The thirtieth fireman joke on c&c sure didn't grate at all (they're not firemen, guys)
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Mar 18, 2016 19:58
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Funkmaster General posted:It's a little different, to be fair, since with roguelike the argument is usually "what constitutes roguelike" or "is this actually a roguelike" while with the other two the argument is usually "why do we call this that way, there has to be a better term." There was so much pushback against metroidvania, in particular, that people almost seemed willing to adopt "Igavania" when it was proposed during the Bloodstained kickstarter. The problem with roguelikes isn't the name, the problem is that they're bad. al-azad posted:I can't think of many other examples, it's kind of a recent thing. People ironically embraced Doom clone for a while but JRPG and WRPG got some grumbling around the PS2 era because RPGs were becoming less traditional. Most people these days settle on just RPG, we don't need to attach Japanese or Western to the title anymore. Japanese RPGs have autism, remember icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 06:42 on Mar 19, 2016 |
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Mar 19, 2016 06:30
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icantfindaname posted:The problem with roguelikes isn't the name, the problem is that they're bad. Adding procedural generation to a game doesn't usually make it any better, and having procedural generation as a core feature/selling point of a game is often a sign of a game being bare-bones and shallow The best roguelikes are built around procedural generation. It isn't just an addition. To unlock all of the mysteries of the Binding of Isaac you have to run the game start-to-finish hundreds of times. It wouldn't be the same game if there was just one hand-crafted dungeon (or even dozens.) Plus you get to share with others who had different experiences, and it enhances the thrill of risking your run if you know that the dungeon wasn't carefully crafted to be beatable by you. Sometimes you get hosed by RNG and there's nothing you can do about it, but that makes opening every item room more exciting.
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Mar 19, 2016 06:42
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Randallteal posted:The best roguelikes are built around procedural generation. It isn't just an addition. To unlock all of the mysteries of the Binding of Isaac you have to run the game start-to-finish hundreds of times. It wouldn't be the same game if there was just one hand-crafted dungeon (or even dozens.) Plus you get to share with others who had different experiences, and it enhances the thrill of risking your run if you know that the dungeon wasn't carefully crafted to be beatable by you. Sometimes you get hosed by RNG and there's nothing you can do about it, but that makes opening every item room more exciting. I mean, sure, but IMO Spelunky and Binding of Isaac are sort of exceptions. "Roguelike" to me means that the procedural generation is supposed to be a core feature of a game, like Rogue Legacy is "platformer with procedural generation" and that FPS roguelike whose creator sent death threats to Gabe was "FPS with procedural generation". You could describe BoI or Spelunky without using the phrase roguelike at all and be perfectly accurate, you really can't do the same with Rogue Legacy
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Mar 19, 2016 07:06
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Fully procedurally-generated titles are kinda poo poo by and large, yes, but titles using a curated tileset or pieces to create something can be plenty fine. Hell, even if you don't like the actual, old-school Rogue clones, some of the stuff being done in that genre these days is a delight due to the random nature. Take a look at how the variable quests in something like Tales of Maj'Eyal make what could otherwise be a miserably repetitive experience and turn it into fresher variety on new characters before you get to the tougher midgame and beyond.
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Mar 19, 2016 07:39
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icantfindaname posted:I mean, sure, but IMO Spelunky and Binding of Isaac are sort of exceptions. "Roguelike" to me means that the procedural generation is supposed to be a core feature of a game, like Rogue Legacy is "platformer with procedural generation" and that FPS roguelike whose creator sent death threats to Gabe was "FPS with procedural generation". You could describe BoI or Spelunky without using the phrase roguelike at all and be perfectly accurate, you really can't do the same with Rogue Legacy You can't describe Spelunky or BoI without talking about how they're procedurally generated. That is the entire reason they are so replayable, and pretty much their entire attraction. The procedural generation creates interesting intersections of gameplay that are unique to a given playthrough. Both games also just have really solid mechanics outside of the RL stuff. There are also lots of bad games that use procedural generation. They usually have really lovely mechanics, or just don't use procedural generation in an interesting way (Rogue Legacy for example has a really limited set of content so you end up just replaying stuff you've already seen, while Paranautical Activity is just a piece of poo poo in general).
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Mar 19, 2016 08:45
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Are the idle thumbs dudes going to pax east?
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Mar 25, 2016 05:38
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In idle thumbs robot news. Not only will the robots kill us but they will sound like a general bull poo poo poster when they do it. http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/mar/24/microsoft-scrambles-limit-pr-damage-over-abusive-ai-bot-tay
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Mar 25, 2016 08:29
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Jippa posted:In idle thumbs robot news. Not only will the robots kill us but they will sound like a general bull poo poo poster when they do it.
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Mar 25, 2016 08:36
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Jippa posted:In idle thumbs robot news. Not only will the robots kill us but they will sound like a general bull poo poo poster when they do it. I already wrote into them about this and I better not have been the only one.
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Mar 25, 2016 15:57
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Captain Invictus posted:Are the idle thumbs dudes going to pax east? We aren't, but did you know the voice of Kenny in the Walking Dead games is also the voice of Furby toys? C-Euro posted:I already wrote into them about this and I better not have been the only one. You aren't, don't worry.
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Mar 25, 2016 21:40
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Chris linked to this earlier this week. https://twitter.com/chrisremo/status/713041121505583104 
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Mar 25, 2016 21:53
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ja2ke posted:We aren't, but did you know the voice of Kenny in the Walking Dead games is also the voice of Furby toys? And that's really something. Good? Bad? Something.
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Mar 25, 2016 21:53
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Mierenneuker posted:Chris linked to this earlier this week. Holy gently caress.
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Mar 25, 2016 22:45
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At the end of this week's WOFF Gary mentions something about Warcraft 3 "using RTS stuff as an engine for a different kind of game" and I couldn't help thinking A. yes that's true and B. that game is DOTA
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Mar 25, 2016 22:59
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Opposing Farce posted:At the end of this week's WOFF Gary mentions something about Warcraft 3 "using RTS stuff as an engine for a different kind of game" and I couldn't help thinking A. yes that's true and B. that game is DOTA For sure. I've never played LOL or DOTA, mostly because I can't get into a game without an ending, but I'm sure we'll talk about it a little in the episode.
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Mar 26, 2016 00:21
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the ending to dota is when you swear off it forever in disgust
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Mar 26, 2016 10:05
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My favorite memory of warcraft 3 was playing a DBZ game in which the characters' power levels were so off the chart, that by midgame you couldn't see your HP, as it was so high it would break the hp bar display in the hero UI. People were really creative with that engine!
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Mar 26, 2016 11:56
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There was a custom map called Warlock that was really fun. It was kind of like WC3 smash bros, you'd walk a little dude around and shoot spells at your opponents and in addition to doing damage they'd apply acceleration to them. The arena was surrounded by lava and got smaller over time, so the second most fun way to kill people tended to be hitting them point blank with some ridiculous spell and launching them clear across the map. The most fun way, of course, was to have the swap positions spell and hit your opponent with it as soon as they launch you into the lava. I think there's a standalone clone of it in early access on Steam right now, but I can't find it for the life of me.
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Mar 26, 2016 12:06
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