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joepinetree posted:When the loving Sao Paulo police commanders start telling reporters that the state government is being unreasonable, things are seriously hosed up. Though I wonder if this isn't an attempt to keep pro-PT people away and then tomorrow morning they quietly keep the anti-PT protesters away. Because otherwise, no way this ends well. Yeah, the only reasonable argument is to keep the pro-government protesters at bay. Otherwise he's a loving psychopath.
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Mar 18, 2016 03:28
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The Unnamed One posted:Otherwise he's a loving psychopath. Well, sociopath.
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Mar 18, 2016 03:30
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He could also be a very nostalgic dude, and wanted to remind himself how it was 52 years ago.
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Mar 18, 2016 04:39
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Okay, the police has used tear gas to remove the anti-government protestors from Av. Paulista despite the earlier news that they wouldn't, so maybe this afternoon won't result in a gently caress off street battle.
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Mar 18, 2016 13:28
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I work like 10 minutes away from Av. Paulista. Seems pretty calm down here. Hopefully the complete breakdown of society can at least be postponed until I get home.
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Mar 18, 2016 13:56
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It aint going to be calm at night when protestors from both sides clash. I will be there watchingn the battle from a safe distance Elias_Maluco fucked around with this message at 14:02 on Mar 18, 2016 |
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Mar 18, 2016 13:59
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This thread's huge so sorry if someone's asked before/already done it, but can someone do a summary of what led up to this/who everyone is for someone who knows nothing about brazil except footballers?
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Mar 18, 2016 15:49
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tekz posted:This thread's huge so sorry if someone's asked before/already done it, but can someone do a summary of what led up to this/who everyone is for someone who knows nothing about brazil except footballers? The massive criminals in government (PT) got caught doing massive crimes by the massive criminals in opposition (PDSB).
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Mar 18, 2016 17:01
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Constant Hamprince posted:The massive criminals in government (PT) got caught doing massive crimes by the massive criminals in opposition (PDSB). And the massive criminals who will end up on top will be the ones better capable of protecting the massive criminals in control of the houses (PMDB).
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Mar 18, 2016 17:09
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tekz posted:This thread's huge so sorry if someone's asked before/already done it, but can someone do a summary of what led up to this/who everyone is for someone who knows nothing about brazil except footballers? Everything's hosed everybody sucks - Fred Durst
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Mar 18, 2016 17:13
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Ok, I'll try the best I can manage: Lava Jato (literally, "car wash"): An investigation made by the Judiciary that uncovered a conspiracy between members of the government, directors of the national oil company Petrobras, and construction companies. Dilma Rousseff: President of Brazil, member of the Worker's Party (PT). Was elected twice pretty much only because of Lula, but does not have nearly a fraction of his popularity. Is generally considered by most to be a pretty bad president and a terrible politician (was never elected for anything before). Her name comes up in the Lava Jato investigations a few times, but at this juncture it's not clear if she was ever involved in the conspiracy or not. Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva: Previous president. Incredibly popular after he left office - even after the previous big scandal, the "Mensalão", arrested a bunch of his most trusted men - and was a serious contender for the 2018 presidential election. Beloved by the masses; Literally Hitler to reactionaries. Has been under investigation for irregularities involving him and a company that is involved in the Lava Jato scheme, Odebrecht, including a triplex apartment and a small farm he doesn't own, but supposedly visits a lot. Dilma made him a Minister this week, which would lead his case directly to the Supreme Court. Sérgio Moro: Judge responsible for the Lava Jato investigations. Seen as a hero by a lot of the opposition, his impartiality has been in question for a long time: Seems to mainly focus on the PT side of the investigations, escorting Lula to an airport for questioning while leaving guys like Aécio Neves (leader of the opposition party, PSDB) untouched; has attended an event organized by the apparent PSDB mayoral candidate of São Paulo, João Dória; received a prize by the media conglomerate Globo (very interested in having Dilma out). After Lula became a minister, he leaked a lot of tapped phonecalls made by Lula to several people (Dilma, his lawyers, allies, etc). Nothing too incriminating, but certainly makes everyone look bad. Eduardo Cunha: President of Congress, piece of poo poo. Is neck deep in the Lava Jato scheme, having several undisclosed accounts overseas, yet is still in power, and pushing for Dilma's impeachment. Aécio Neves: Leader of the opposition party, PSDB. Grandson of the first president after the end of the dictatorship, Tancredo Neves (who died not long after taking power). Lost the election to Dilma in 2014. Also a piece of poo poo, having his name involed in several corruption schemes, incluing the Lava Jato, but has never been properly investigated (most of them have been archived). Also, apparently a woman beater. Delcídio do Amaral: Senator of Mato Grosso do Sul by the PT, involved in the Lava Jato scandal. Was arrested by Moro, and made a statement that implicated Lula, Dilma, Cunha, Aécio, and bunch of other people in the scheme. Not sure if it answers all your questions. If there's anything else, I'll try to help. The Unnamed One fucked around with this message at 19:50 on Mar 18, 2016 |
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Mar 18, 2016 17:34
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Can add to Aecio Neves: Playboy. Apparently a coke fiend. His company or close political allies are suspected of using public money to build a private airport on family property. A helicopter belonging to his company was seized at this airport with 400kg of coke on board. Considered by those opposed to the government to be the most trustworthy politician.
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Mar 18, 2016 17:55
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He got shouted off on recent rallies though although it was for not being reactionary enough lol
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Mar 18, 2016 17:59
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Why is the word for carwash lava jato and not lavacarros 
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Mar 18, 2016 18:00
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Badger of Basra posted:Why is the word for carwash lava jato and not lavacarros It uses a jet to spray water or something.
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Mar 18, 2016 18:09
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tekz posted:This thread's huge so sorry if someone's asked before/already done it, but can someone do a summary of what led up to this/who everyone is for someone who knows nothing about brazil except footballers? Since people already summed up the big names and what Lava-Jato is, Imma try and provide some lovely context: In late 2014, we had general elections for President of our glorious, hosed-up nation, as we do every four years. Unlike America, we have a ludicrous number of parties, but two had a real shot at grabbing the chair: PT (The Workers' Party, actually left-of-center), who had been in power for 12 years; and PSDB (Brazilian Social Democrat Party, actually right-of-center); who had been in power for 8 years before PT. Pres. Dilma Rousseff, who was running for reelection, won in a tight race. It was tight for a number of reasons, including a series of political scandals during PT's previous mandates, biggest one being the Mensalão: monthly bribes to important people to guarantee certain privileges. There were also economical factors and an overall "anti-PT" vibe coming mostly from our upper-middle class. Explaining that last one is...complicated. Oh, and they didn't have many fans on the big media outlets either. After DIlma won, the economy imploded. People were already somewhat expecting that implosion, but it hit hard regardless. That implosion, coupled with the Lava-Jato scandal and accusations of "creative accounting" to spend more public money than they should have, led to protests asking for Dilma's impeachment. Now, at that moment, there wasn't much of a legal basis for impeachment, but Eduardo Cunha (President of Congress, conservative scumbag) decided to run with it for his own benefit. (Quick break for extra context: Eduardo Cunha is a member of PMDB. PMDB dates from the military dictatorship days, when they were the "allowed" opposition - not to be mistaken by the dirty commies. I should be impartial here but gently caress it, they're pretty much opportunistic parasites. They sided with PT after PT got established as the ruling party, so they are technically PART of the current government. I'd call it a backstab if it weren't for the fact that it's PMDB and they're super-splintered.) So Dilma's approval ratings sink, the economy in is shambles, the dollar skyrockets, Lava-Jato is catching people left and right (literally), and they find Eduardo Cunha's undisclosed accounts overseas so he shushes down. Things stall for a while, although they never really calm down. 2016 comes around, with a yet-to-be-voted-on impeachment process on Congress and people still pretty pissed at PT. THEN, the Lula Triplex happens. Luis Inácio "Lula" da Silva, Dilma's predecessor and THE face of PT, was always a divisive figure. Poor, under-educated, sindicalist and for a long time an actual Marxist Communist, he cleaned up a bit and rose to power in 2002. It's a bit cynical to say he "sold out" PT, but gently caress it, I'm cynical. Still, he is charismatic and popular with the masses (some would say populist), and more importantly, he had a legit good eight-year run as president. Scandals aside, of course, but those never touched him. Which is where the triplex comes in. The Federal Police finds out about this Odebrecht triplex, which Lula swears isn't his although he seems to have visited it quite a bit. Same goes for a small farm, where they find paddle boats with his grandchildren's names. poo poo's suspect to say the very least. One morning, we wake up to news that Lula had been detained by the Federal Police to depose on this triplex bullshit. It's sudden, a bit unnecessary and a midiatic spectacule. An actual arrest order for Lula is floated - again, not a very concrete thing, but enough to light up everyone's asses. THEEEEEEN, we start hearing rumors that Lula might take a position as Minister, which would mean he avoids Sérgio Moro and instead gets to be judged by the Supreme Court only. It's a clear political play and when it happens, Moro leaks a bunch of semi-compromising telephone calls between Lula and other influent members of the government, including Dilma, in another clear political play that might or might not be legal, who the gently caress knows at this instance. To be continued. Man, I confused myself halfway through this but gently caress it I'm posting all of it anyway. edit: here's a longer, better written thing on the new allegations: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/brazils-ex-president-lula-named-rousseffs-chief-of-staff-report/article29257140/
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Mar 18, 2016 18:21
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The really big thing to understand all of this is the immense amount of party fractionalization that exists in Brazil. No single party has ever come close to getting 1/3 of congress, for example, since the end of the dictatorship. Right now, the biggest party in congress doesn't even have 20% of the seats. This means that political alliances are necessary. This being Brazil, very few parties are oriented by ideological differences. Essentially you have PT on the center left, PSDB and DEM on the right, and PSOL/PSTU on the more traditional left. But all of these put together don't even account for half of congress. The majority of congress is made up by what we would call "physiological" parties in Brazil. Clientelistic parties that exist simply as rent extracting organizations by negotiating their support in exchange for positions where they are able to extract public money in some form. PMDB is the largest of these parties, but you can include most other parties here, like PP and so on. They are parties that have always been part of the government, regardless of whether PT or PMDB is in charge. They always negotiate support in exchange of spots in key positions with large budgets. Hell, perhaps the biggest irony here is that friction between PMDB and PT started when Dilma decided to replace Cunha's nominees to Furnas because they were too corrupt, and now she may lose the presidency because of corruption while he becomes the de facto vice president. The vast majority of people involved in the scandal are members of these parties. In fact, in a Brazil.txt fact, 40 out of the 66 members of congress in charge of evaluating the impeachment request received money from the companies investigated in Lava Jato. Now, to understand the particular dynamics here, you also have to understand that while PT is not far left by any sense of the word, a lot of their policies have deeply angered the upper middle classes, especially of the south and south east of Brazil. PT created a small cash transfer program that has proven to be deeply controversial, despite near universal academic support for it (Bolsa Familia), has increased the minimum wage quite drastically, and has passed laws making it so labor laws also applied to domestic servants and that properties found to be using slave labor could be expropriated by the government. This has made PT the narrow focus of a lot of anger. This is important because most of the recent protests, despite publicly being about ending corruption, are all pushing for a scenario where PT is ousted from power, with PMDB taking its place. The reason this is significant is because the most likely outcome is that Temer becomes president and Cunha the de facto vice president, despite the fact that both are far more deeply involved in the corruption scandal than anyone from PT (or PSDB for that matter). That is, the outcome of this whole mess essentially hinges on a bidding war between PT and PSDB for the support of PMDB, and PMDB has noticed that the bulk of the anti-corruption protests are essentially anti-PT protests (to the point where people wearing red - PT's color - are frequently being attacked on the streets). I.e., they realized that if they sell out PT not only will they end up with the presidency, vice presidency, and leadership of both houses of congress, but most people will essentially stop caring about the whole scandal. The last thing to really set the whole mess on fire, as already explained, was the nomination of Lula as a minister to escape Moro's single-minded pursuit of PT figures. Moro then leaked phone calls that were definitely obtained illegally (it includes calls between Lula and his defense lawyers, for example) and may or may not have included evidence of criminal activity (highly dependent on interpretation). But what makes these leaks noteworthy are that they make clear that the whole nomination was a legal maneuver to get Lula away from Moro's reach, and that there is nothing that Lula can do that will not be under strict supervision, whether that supervision is legal or not. That is, it essentially neuters Lula as a political force, because you can bet that no one wants to be caught on a wiretap talking to him, regardless of whether the wiretap is legal. It also included a number of politically inconvenient conversations (such as Lula complaining that the supreme court was too cowardly to reign in Moro's more illegal tendencies, which makes it even less likely that they'd intervene now). joepinetree fucked around with this message at 19:17 on Mar 18, 2016 |
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Mar 18, 2016 19:10
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Chile's abortion law project has gone through the Lower House, now it has to be approved in the Senate. Some people were not happy with this outcome. Highlights during the final vote:  "Today is a crucial moment, today the death sentence, the execution of thousands of Chileans [...] someday you will have to answer to the owner of all life" "We could say that the military government killed grownups, you will kill people before they are born. Which of these is the greatest crime?" "A raped woman is not free to think freely" "This means the end of the Teletón" "YOU WILL ALL GO STRAIGHT TO HELL"Also, some Chilegoon should try making an effort post re: the current spate of corruption cases and general bullshit going on. I think I would miss key events if I tried, and in any case it would serve as an interesting parallel to Brazilchat.
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Mar 18, 2016 20:35
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Traveller posted:Chile's abortion law project has gone through the Lower House, now it has to be approved in the Senate. Some people were not happy with this outcome. How liberal is the project being considered?
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Mar 18, 2016 20:35
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Abortion will be decriminalized in cases of rape, risk to the mother's life, and fetal unviability. I'll report tomorrow to see if we have gone full The Road or just Mad Max.
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Mar 18, 2016 20:39
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Live feed of the pro-government protests in São Paulo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAZoS-J2KS4 just got home from the protest in my town, not as many counter-protesters as i had feared and the police was actually helpful managing traffic around the march, the government might have gotten a second wind today
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Mar 18, 2016 23:26
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bagual posted:Live feed of the pro-government protests in São Paulo Same here, local protest was huge and police was quite cooperative despite original fears. I've gone to most manifestations in this city and I think only the big day in 2013 had more people on the streets.
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Mar 19, 2016 00:31
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Strangely enough, out of all this mess in Brazil, the one institution that's looking sane and non-terrible is the Brazilian Armed Forces, they've firmly distanced themselves from calls for a new military intervention as soon as nutcases started talking about it. The Commander of the Army made statements today calling it "regrettable that in a democratic country like Brazil, people only see in the Armed Forces a possibility to solve the crisis, but this isn't widespread and fortunately the calls for military intervention are falling considerably"  http://acritica.uol.com.br/noticias/Comandante-Exercito-Brasileiro-lamentavel-intervencao_0_1542445759.html Then I made the mistake of reading the comments, where a bunch of people scream that it's the duty of the army to stop this leftist coup, and one dude in particular calls him a communist 
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Mar 19, 2016 01:12
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Traveller posted:Also, some Chilegoon should try making an effort post re: the current spate of corruption cases and general bullshit going on. I think I would miss key events if I tried, and in any case it would serve as an interesting parallel to Brazilchat. It's actually a pretty boring case that no one gives a poo poo about except newspapers trying to be dramatic.
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Mar 19, 2016 02:29
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I am shocked, just shocked that globo refused go record or broadcast Lula's speech.
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Mar 19, 2016 06:54
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Does Bolsonaro have any real power or influence in Brazil? Because I just watched Vice's documentary on LGBT rights in Brazil and holy hell that guy is a piece of poo poo
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Mar 19, 2016 06:57
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He's a congressman from a small party, so he has little formal political power. But he is one of the most popular, if not the most popular politician among the current anti government protestors.
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Mar 19, 2016 12:57
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Machado de Assis posted:Strangely enough, out of all this mess in Brazil, the one institution that's looking sane and non-terrible is the Brazilian Armed Forces, they've firmly distanced themselves from calls for a new military intervention as soon as nutcases started talking about it. How well has the military been doing since the 2000's?
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Mar 19, 2016 14:26
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Machado de Assis posted:Strangely enough, out of all this mess in Brazil, the one institution that's looking sane and non-terrible is the Brazilian Armed Forces, they've firmly distanced themselves from calls for a new military intervention as soon as nutcases started talking about it. that's only if you ignore lower ranked soldiers and military policemen that are only waiting for a go ahead to crack some skulls and kill with a superior order. what I'm saying is avoid police and military Facebook groups if you don't want to get upset. but good to know the military at least for now knows its place.
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Mar 19, 2016 17:39
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It's the same thing in Argentina and many other Latin American countries. The military has, by now, somehow been purged of actual coupist officers. Either through legal process, by being made to resign, or (as in most cases) just quietly put through retirement, early if possible. Considering that the military dictatorships are now up to 25+ years past, military institutions and those in them are respectful of democratic government, or at the very least know to shut their mouths. The court of public opinion, however...
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Mar 19, 2016 23:08
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Latin American countries have also learned that they don't actually need to appoint military officers to political positions. Well, all of them, except Venezuela.
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Mar 20, 2016 00:36
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qnqnx posted:It's actually a pretty boring case that no one gives a poo poo about except newspapers trying to be dramatic. Chilean political scandals since 1990 tend to be pretty dull by Latin American standards tbh. There was the "Half the UDI is part of a pedophilia ring" thing but that turned out to be a false alarm By Chilean standards it's kinda big, but by now the fact that both Nueva Mayoría and the right wing (Chile Vamos??? who the hell picks those names) are in it deep means it will either lead to "wow this is so widespread, better pass some token regulation re: campaign finances and conflict of interests" or "both sides are doing it so angry votes will cancel each other out and lmao if you think people will vote for a third party". Since the Comisión Engel was defanged before it even did a thing signs point heavily towards option 2
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Mar 20, 2016 01:17
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I'm still convinced that Gemita Bueno was paid off to shut up, but I admit that's because I have the same reaction to Jovino Novoa that American posters have to Ted Cruz. And while there's a major "a pox upon both your houses" sentiment going on (see: most humor skits at Viña del Mar this year) I think the right stands to lose the most this time. UDI in particular is pretty hosed as most major scandals have them as the primary beneficiaries, their refusal to discipline their own party members even after Novoa got that ridiculous slap-in-the-wrist sentence is not playing well with people, and even the Caval affair that has tanked Bachelet's approval ratings had UDI agents involved. The abortion debate just goes to show how completely disconnected they sound from reality, and maybe I'm being too optimistic but I think people will remember come elections time. If nothing else, they won't be El Partido Popular anymore.
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Mar 20, 2016 16:51
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Traveller posted:I'm still convinced that Gemita Bueno was paid off to shut up, but I admit that's because I have the same reaction to Jovino Novoa that American posters have to Ted Cruz. Oh they're not el partido popular anymore, some genius at the marketing department decided the best way to face the heat the party's getting was to do some rebranding with a new logo and name. So they received a shitton of money through shady means but at least it's comforting to see they're putting those lucas to good use
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Mar 20, 2016 19:03
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Traveller posted:Also, some Chilegoon should try making an effort post re: the current spate of corruption cases and general bullshit going on. I think I would miss key events if I tried, and in any case it would serve as an interesting parallel to Brazilchat. I'll lolpost when the labor reform is finally passed.
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Mar 21, 2016 13:36
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joepinetree posted:He's a congressman from a small party, so he has little formal political power. But he is one of the most popular, if not the most popular politician among the current anti government protestors. The Ted Cruz of Brazil?
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Mar 21, 2016 13:56
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punk rebel ecks posted:The Ted Cruz of Brazil? That's now a hotly-contested title. ... I know what I just said.
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Mar 21, 2016 15:18
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Yeah, possibly stronger and stranger than Bolsonaro itself is the cult of personality around him. For some crazy reason he has a growing young fanbase, of people that like him mostly because makes a lot of people mad by for the 'lulz'. The standard "strong man who talks like it is". Usually their discussions regarding a possible presidency are simply "Bolsonaro will be president in 2018, u mad?". Sometimes I wonder if they actually care about Bolsonaro's conservative views at all, since young people usually don't care about moral issues that much. I feel that if he was actually elected president and started doing sweeping morally conservative changes, these same kids would think "hmmm, maybe I didn't want this after all, it's not fun anymore".
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Mar 21, 2016 15:57
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Cruz is a weasely little gently caress who associates with pastors who advocate forcibly curing homosexuality instead of saying it himself like Bolsonaro. Also Cruz was never apologetic towards military junta rule IIRC
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Mar 21, 2016 16:02
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ZearothK posted:Yeah, the people I know from São Paulo have been mentioning that stuff. Not much around here, but I have a friend over there who's genuinely afraid of this leading to purges driven by public violence and an eventual civil war. He sort of fantasizes about fighting in a guerrilla, so I hope he's wrong. That's my father, except for the guerrila part.
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