Please wait for the end of the Riddler sidequest before evaluating its portrayal of Catwoman's agency.berryjon posted:So, uh, does the game ever explain why Rā's doesn't just toss Talia into a Lazarus pit after he recovers between City and now? 'Cause he was pretty dead as well, so it's not like there wasn't an active Lazarus pit within reach of the League. Talia is almost certainly coming back, regardless of your decision in the Shadow War scenario- it's pointed to in a couple of places. I'm hoping Scruffy gets the chance to go back and snag the recording, because it's pretty significant.
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Mar 21, 2016 02:06
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FicusArt posted:So, aside from you you seem to think regular firefighters are comparable to women like Poison Ivy and Nyssa. And that largely, named male characters like the Riddler, Scarecrow, the Arkham Knight, the Mad Hatter, and such have had plenty of agency in what happens to them and those around them, and on screen. Yeeeeaaaahhhh, I sometimes agree with the whole "women fridge thing", but you're shooting yourself in the foot here. Frankly I think you're out of line to disregard the firefighters, lab workers, Mad Hatter's cop hostages, or hell even the serial murder victims. As for the villains? Yeah, most of the Batman villains are male, that's just the material that the writers have to deal with. Harley's been giving a good show though so far. Nobody is coming out of this night smelling pretty, no matter what your gender is. And that is why I ultimately have no problem with the plot so far. mauman fucked around with this message at 02:10 on Mar 21, 2016 |
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Mar 21, 2016 02:07
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dscruffy1 posted:Personally I still think Batman would help Ra's, but I wish it had ended differently. I realize this has been discussed at length, and I'm not Certified DC Comic Universe Canon Expert, but I think Batman uses technicalities all the time in his line of work to get around the no killing rule. I know in the Nolan reboot movies he loves going with the "I'm not going to kill you, but I don't to save you" line of thinking. No better example of this than in the first movie, which has him kill Ra's as he just flies off as both Ra's and the train he is on flies off the tracks and explodes in a parking garage. The older movies also have examples of him just standing by as people get brutally killed. I think in this case he would've realized that not letting him be resurrected and then holding Nyssa to her promise to piss off would be the decision he made... unless there's some other narrative you're showing off here. Though it sounds like from Alfred's debrief that both factions are now gone, either way.
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Mar 21, 2016 02:10
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FicusArt posted:When you side with Nyssa, and she tries to finish off Ra's, batman easily stops her, and she leaves. Ra's approves of Batman not reviving him, because Batman's actions line up with what Ra's wanted. I'm actually not seeing your point here? The dying person paradoxically approves of Batman's decision in either case and the conundrum, as stated by Nyssa, framed the player decision such that Batman would have blood on his hands without being a murderer himself. Nyssa walking away because Batman saves her, as he could with Ras, versus Nyssa's death as her explicit desire in that situation, having earlier shown disgust for unnatural lifespans, is neither appropriate to the conundrum's intent nor a more appropriate expression of character agency. I suppose the scenarios aren't perfect mirrors but expecting a feeble, dying, uncured Ras (as the original premise requires) to jump into a suddenly ferocious melee so Nyssa could kill him herself is a stretch, recalling that in the real scenario Ras wallows on the floor with Nyssa casually aiming a deathblow (Nyssa is supposed to be the reasonable one too). e: I think we may have forgotten that Ras is at his most potent physically after resurrection, the later recovery is more to regain what shreds of humanity he has left than not being fighting-fit. hard counter fucked around with this message at 03:52 on Mar 21, 2016 |
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Mar 21, 2016 02:19
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Octatonic posted:I'm not going to go on beyond this, because I've said my thoughts on the matter as succinctly as I can, but yes, this is exactly the fault of the writers, who wrote what your choices were and what the consequences were. This is a videogame, and its story is an entirely deterministic, created text, not some sort of emergent system, duder. This line of reasoning precludes ever having a woman come to harm as a indirect result of the player's choices. Do these kinds of gripes only apply to comic book games because of comics' long and lovely history of using women as props, or does every game need to follow this advice? Or is there some number of options that you can have at a given choice that makes one of them involving the death of a woman acceptable? People keep saying that there need only be minor changes to this and that, but then they say that a story starting with a sexist trope (or containing one? idk) will make that story sexist. Is The Handmaid's Tale a misogynistic or sexist book? Or is there some level of leeway granted for thematic exploration? I'm not exactly eager to continue this discussion, but I honestly don't know what delineates an acceptable portrayal of women from an unacceptable one. It's possible that different people are drawing the line in different places and I'm conflating them, but I honestly don't know how any work could live up to the standards being collectively espoused in this thread.
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Mar 21, 2016 02:20
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Yo, I said I was done with this conversation in this thread. If you'd legitimately like to have a conversation about how literary criticism works you can PM me.
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Mar 21, 2016 02:25
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For such a fun, well made LP on scruffy's side, the discussion itt does seem an odd match 
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Mar 21, 2016 02:32
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hard counter posted:For such a fun, well made LP on scruffy's side, the discussion itt does seem an odd match Still better than what went on in the City thread.
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Mar 21, 2016 02:35
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hard counter posted:For such a fun, well made LP on scruffy's side, the discussion itt does seem an odd match No matter who makes the LP, no matter how the LP is done, no matter how far we are into the LP, there will always be that unholy triad: the Joker, the no kill rule, the female characters. It is inevitable, for this is a Batman Arkham thread.
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Mar 21, 2016 02:38
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Wait, if i'm reading the thread correctly, y'all are saying the "proper" outcome is the one where Ra's doesn't get the immortality McGuffin? Why the gently caress did Batman go get it then? You're telling me that Oracle is kidnapped, Catwoman has a neckbomb, a private army is running over Gotham, and who knows what the gently caress Scarecrow is up to, and Bats takes the time to go and retrieve a vial of life juice just so he can smash it in front of Ra's? That is the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
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Mar 21, 2016 02:44
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And also because Rocksteady is great at fun video games and terrible about the Joker, female characters, and the no kill. Also, with regards to speculation about jason todd being the arkham knight, that would be the nail in the loving coffin for this game. Kill two female characters without even trying to save them, bring back Batman's biggest regrettable death outside his own parents? Oh god it's true isn't it
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Mar 21, 2016 02:46
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death .cab for qt posted:And also because Rocksteady is great at fun video games and terrible about the Joker, female characters, and the no kill. Basically this. These games look fun as hell but the stories are real bad. The actual gameplay looks awesome, though.
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Mar 21, 2016 03:03
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death .cab for qt posted:And also because Rocksteady is great at fun video games and terrible about the Joker, female characters, and the no kill. Being dead and then not is kinda Jason Todd's thing. If he makes an appearance in some Batman media, it's gonna be about that. How many animated cartoons or movies or anything just use Jason Todd as Robin? There'as a reason for that, too. He sucked. So if Jason shows up in this game, don't be surprised. When it comes to him it's either that or nothing.
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Mar 21, 2016 03:10
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GladRagKraken posted:Wait, if i'm reading the thread correctly, y'all are saying the "proper" outcome is the one where Ra's doesn't get the immortality McGuffin? Why the gently caress did Batman go get it then? You're telling me that Oracle is kidnapped, Catwoman has a neckbomb, a private army is running over Gotham, and who knows what the gently caress Scarecrow is up to, and Bats takes the time to go and retrieve a vial of life juice just so he can smash it in front of Ra's? That is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Batman got it because he wasn't sure what he was going to do, and becuause he wanted to destroy the Lazarus source. It's not hard.
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Mar 21, 2016 03:10
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That's why I'll always like Origins, despite its flaws. Bunch of semi-regular gangsters open the floodgates and usher in the era of the freaks in a last ditch attempt to preserve the good old times. No crazy titan drugs, no city-sized prisons with zero discipline and oversight, just a pretty reasonable Year Three kind of story.
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Mar 21, 2016 03:14
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hard counter posted:For such a fun, well made LP on scruffy's side, the discussion itt does seem an odd match Alexeythegreat posted:No matter who makes the LP, no matter how the LP is done, no matter how far we are into the LP, there will always be that unholy triad: the Joker, the no kill rule, the female characters. ...I like talking about stuff and things. Is that really so wrong? 
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Mar 21, 2016 03:17
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I said that it is inevitable, not that it is bad 
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Mar 21, 2016 03:24
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Arkham Knight's story's greatest sin is that it feels utterly disjointed as a result of trying to cram in a full storyline for every single villain Rocksteady could think of. It makes the main story have zero urgency. Arkham City's side quests struck a much better balance. With the exception of the Riddler's poo poo, you would stumble across a lot of the side mission stuff little by little as you played naturally, and all of it was short enough and relatively small-time enough to not dethrone the main story line. Hell, even the main storyline of Arkham Knight feels bizarrely ADHD, jumping around from plot point to plot point fast enough that none of it has time to develop weight. Asylum and City both had fewer but much more fleshed out plot points. fool of sound fucked around with this message at 04:10 on Mar 21, 2016 |
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Mar 21, 2016 04:07
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I enjoyed that Batman (though under player control) was fine with dunking an ac unit on a ninja's head, thren going "I dont kill" like 5 minutes later 
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Mar 21, 2016 04:15
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Hobgoblin2099 posted:Not to mention the fact that he wants to die if he has a successor, which Nyssa is. Yes, but unfortunately being centuries old leaves one with values several centuries old too, and thus Ra's doesn't really believe this whole "female leader" thing could possibly work, and thus keeps trying to rope Bats into the gig. TwoPair fucked around with this message at 04:48 on Mar 21, 2016 |
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Mar 21, 2016 04:32
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TwoPair posted:Yes, but unfortunately being centuries old leaves one with values several centuries old too, and thus Ra's doesn't really believe this whole "female leader" thing could possibly work, and thus keeps trying to rope Bats into the gig. I'm not sure if that's the case. Yes, he wanted Bats to be his successor, but I could of sworn I read somewhere that he would have been fine with Talia as the leader. He just REALLY doesn't like Nyssa. Yes, I'm talking about the Arkham universe and not the actual comics. edit: vv I will admit that I could be wrong since I can't remember where I read it, also tolerated might have been a better word. mauman fucked around with this message at 05:25 on Mar 21, 2016 |
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Mar 21, 2016 05:00
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mauman posted:I'm not sure if that's the case. Yes, he wanted Bats to be his successor, but I could of sworn I read somewhere that he would have been fine with Talia as the leader. No, he's not. Otherwise why would he be working so hard to get Bats to be his successor and why would he have threatened to kill her if Bats didn't do what he wanted in AC? Ra's doesn't give a hot poo poo about either of his daughters except as leverage.
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Mar 21, 2016 05:19
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Nyssa is generally such a nonentity in the comics that I legitimately forgot that Arrow didn't create her (and she's much better handled there).
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Mar 21, 2016 05:57
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CuwiKhons posted:No, he's not. Otherwise why would he be working so hard to get Bats to be his successor and why would he have threatened to kill her if Bats didn't do what he wanted in AC? Ra's doesn't give a hot poo poo about either of his daughters except as leverage. He's obsessed with the guy who denied him and repeatedly foiled him. Batman's the only one he seems to view as worthy of his legacy, Ras is hung up on trying to win on his terms. In these games at least he seems to be a mirror to Bruce's inability to compromise or let go. Then again I may be reading too much into it. We don't really know how he treated Nyssa, but city was pretty clear that whatever Ras once was he's pretty much solely a product of his own madness now.
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Mar 21, 2016 06:15
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CuwiKhons posted:No, he's not. Otherwise why would he be working so hard to get Bats to be his successor and why would he have threatened to kill her if Bats didn't do what he wanted in AC? Ra's doesn't give a hot poo poo about either of his daughters except as leverage. An audiolog spawns in the hospital lobby after the mission is over. In it, Ra's explicitly leaves the League to Talia if Batman refuses to succeed him during the AC series of events- he also says the Lazarus resurrections have become unsustainable. The only reason he's trying for Batman instead of handing over the reins to Talia immediately is because she wants him to give Batman another shot.
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Mar 21, 2016 06:17
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fool_of_sound posted:Arkham Knight's story's greatest sin is that it feels utterly disjointed as a result of trying to cram in a full storyline for every single villain Rocksteady could think of. It makes the main story have zero urgency. Arkham City's side quests struck a much better balance. With the exception of the Riddler's poo poo, you would stumble across a lot of the side mission stuff little by little as you played naturally, and all of it was short enough and relatively small-time enough to not dethrone the main story line. Also, a lot of it was stuff you explicitly couldn't access until the near endgame or postgame. I didn't finish half the main villain sidequests until after the Joker had already taken a dirtnap. The Season of Infamy DLC means we get a great assortment of extra villains to work with so far, but also we can just activate their sidequests at any point, it seems.
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Mar 21, 2016 07:10
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Felinoid posted:Does Arkham Knight still use the same one-autosave-per-game save system as its predecessors? If it had manual saves or a handful of rolling autosaves you could go back to, I could maaaaaaybe see this as a "you chose wrong, idiot". Otherwise it's just a blind alley into...well, everyone's already covered that. It sorta got glossed over, but yes, the one autosave system is still in effect. death .cab for qt posted:Also, a lot of it was stuff you explicitly couldn't access until the near endgame or postgame. I didn't finish half the main villain sidequests until after the Joker had already taken a dirtnap. The Season of Infamy DLC means we get a great assortment of extra villains to work with so far, but also we can just activate their sidequests at any point, it seems. The Season of Infamy sidequests unlock at certain percentages of the main story done. Wonderland wasn't available until after ACE Chemicals blows up, Shadow War was locked until after you get Batmobile access to Miagani. Some of them also require certain gadgets (REC for Shadow War), but I'll be doing them without going out of my way to get things. I didn't know about the tape recording in the hospital, I'll be going back to get that at some point for sure.
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Mar 21, 2016 09:10
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dscruffy1 posted:Are you ready for some poor Bat-decision making? I gotta say, I really disagree with you on this one Scruffy. In addition to all the other arguments made in favor of siding with Nyssa, I'd argue that Batman isn't really portrayed as quite that rigid and unreasonable in this game. Maybe he was in the previous three games, but not in this one. Fionordequester fucked around with this message at 10:05 on Mar 21, 2016 |
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Mar 21, 2016 09:39
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The Shadow War
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This is a no spoiler LP, why post that?
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Mar 21, 2016 09:46
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Veotax posted:This is a no spoiler LP, why post that? Ergh...whoops. I, ergh, missed the flashing sirens in the OP (no seriously, there are flashing sirens, as it turns out), and have now rectified the post. Sorry about that .
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Mar 21, 2016 09:51
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Polaron posted:Nyssa is generally such a nonentity in the comics that I legitimately forgot that Arrow didn't create her (and she's much better handled there). e: VVV Hey, Nolan's Scarecrow might have been a joke but his Crane was top-notch. So wonderfully slimy, that actor. anilEhilated fucked around with this message at 11:42 on Mar 21, 2016 |
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Mar 21, 2016 11:18
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As much poo poo as I give the writing for this game I have to at least give it major props for treating the scarecrow the way they do; He's my favorite villain and it's nice to see something treat him as the dangerous terrorist he actually is instead of as a joke (looking at you Nolan).
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Mar 21, 2016 11:41
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Batman is literally a crazy person. You don't really need to get too philosophical about his beliefs because his beliefs are not rational. Dressing up as a bat and spending billions of dollars to violently fight crime as a vigilante 24/7 for years and years is not rational. It just so happens he's an insanely focused and determined psychotic whose psychosis has pointed his moral compass in a generally good direction. Batman will never "kill" by his own definition of that, which is generally very good because god help DC's world otherwise. He had the ability to decide if Ras lived or died in his hands, so to him regardless of the circumstance choosing to let him die is the same as killing him- Even IF Ras was a horror show of a living corpse with a brain melted by centuries of mysterious revival chemicals. Most people would look at the guy and determine you were participating in endless torture by reviving him again even if he wasn't going to start a deadly ninja war in your town.
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Mar 21, 2016 12:01
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My own favourite explanation of the whole 'Batman doesn't kill' thing is basically that if he let himself kill anyone, he'd happily go on a killing spree on every other villain. Naturally this makes more sense for Nolan-Batman and Arkham-Batman, and less for the lighter-hearted ones.
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Mar 21, 2016 12:36
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bewilderment posted:My own favourite explanation of the whole 'Batman doesn't kill' thing is basically that if he let himself kill anyone, he'd happily go on a killing spree on every other villain. This really shows through with the BTAS Batman. His code only applies to humans. Any non-human that crosses his path is hosed. Robot? Murder it. Plant people trying to live a suburban life? Weed killer. A chunk of Clayface that just wants to date Robin? Use her as bait and let Clayface reabsorb her. My favorite is when Bat is fighting an android clone of himself, almost falls into a chasm, and the clone has to save him because it's too perfect of a copy, so it has to follow the same code. But Batman doesn't give a poo poo and just kills the hell out of it. BTAS Batman is basically Dexter.
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Mar 21, 2016 13:30
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Tendales posted:A chunk of Clayface that just wants to date Robin? Use her as bait and let Clayface reabsorb her. To be fair, he had no idea that was Clayface until it was too late.
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Mar 21, 2016 14:12
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As a side note I finally got around to playing Arkham Origins: Blackgate and hoo boy I can't imagine having paid for that. It's Bad. Scruff is a better man for not LPing it.
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Mar 21, 2016 14:46
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Tendales posted:BTAS Batman is basically Dexter. BTAS batman is basically a massive dick. I think the best example of this is in the prequel comic to batman beyond. (comic spoilers, read if you dont care and want to subject yourelf to a dump comic plot)Barbara is pregnant with Batmans child while she was still dating Dick. Instead of letting Barbara go tell Dick about it herself, Batman rushes to Dick and tells the news himself. This was apparently the reason they all broke up and it lead to batman beyond. Because batman couldnt help being batman even in his own private life.
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Mar 21, 2016 14:54
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dscruffy1 posted:It sorta got glossed over, but yes, the one autosave system is still in effect. I just wanted to add that you do have several autosave files. So if you felt you chose wrong with Ra's, you could roll back and do it again. fool_of_sound posted:all of it was short enough and relatively small-time enough to not dethrone the main story line.. I'd argue that the same is true here, we've just got an slanted sample in the LP so far. Of the sidequests we've seen, the music killer dude takes about 5 seconds from what you were doing. Firefly and the firefighters and the bomb in the street are all relatively short as well. At least they're similar length to stuff like Hush or Deadshot was. Man-Bat was short. The only sidequests that have really taken some serious time from the story are the aforementioned Riddler stuff which is across the entire game and the DLC pack that was most certainly post-game content when it came out. Now it serves to fluff out the game.
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Mar 21, 2016 14:59
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Original BTAS is mostly OK, things got messed up when it became TNBA.
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Mar 21, 2016 14:59
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