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Mirthless posted:Here's a person who has no idea what kind of conditions homeless people are living in in the united states Actually I do quite a bit of volunteer work with the homeless, but please tell me about the living conditions in Afghanistan.
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Mar 22, 2016 20:36
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Jarmak posted:There's a poo poo ton of hoops to get those benefits from the military, not the least of which would be giving up years of your life, living in conditions that would make you jealous of homeless people, having people try to kill you a bunch of times... oh and chronic pain for the rest of your life. Cool, I already have chronic pain for the rest of my life, can I get 100% disability or am I going to be stuck on the lovely 720 dollars a month social security will give me? (No, I have to work a job like everyone else, you entitled shithead.) Jarmak posted:Actually I do quite a bit of volunteer work with the homeless, but please tell me about the living conditions in Afghanistan. You said you were living in those conditions, and the conditions poppy farmers in afghanistan are living in (and homeless in the US) are considerably worse than air conditioned temporary buildings located in secure well-defended military bases with running water and electricity Mirthless fucked around with this message at 20:42 on Mar 22, 2016 |
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Mar 22, 2016 20:38
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Mirthless posted:ITT hiring manager delusions Don't think for a minute from your posting that I doubt you're a poo poo employee. A word on achievability. Replacing non-medical welfare and min wage with GMI would reduce spending and get businesses onboard. The objections would be Puritanical only and lack the organization that economic Republicans can bring.
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Mar 22, 2016 20:39
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This poster loves police brutality, but only when its against minorities!
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ToxicSlurpee posted:So you're against spending government money helping people with those issues? Not at all ToxicSlurpee posted:And are you seriously saying that encouraging people into crime or suicide is better than government help? Not everybody has those other options and church charities, as it turns out, are hilariously inadequate. I'm not taking your hypothetical very seriously, no.
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Mar 22, 2016 20:39
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Mirthless posted:Cool, I already have chronic pain for the rest of my life, can I get 100% disability or am I going to be stuck on the lovely 720 dollars a month social security will give me? That's more then I get
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Mar 22, 2016 20:41
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Jarmak posted:That's more then I get good (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 22, 2016 20:42
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Mirthless posted:Cool, I already have chronic pain for the rest of my life, can I get 100% disability or am I going to be stuck on the lovely 720 dollars a month social security will give me? Look, I'm also married, but I don't expect the government to pay me for it. Jarmak posted:That's more then I get Yeah, but you don't have 100% military disability. That's worth ~$36k+ per year (depending on dependents) tax free, although "chronic pain" won't get you there.
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Mar 22, 2016 20:43
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Jarmak posted:That's more then I get also my brother is on 100% disability (minor shrapnel wound in his leg, no loss of mobility) and not only does he collect substantially more than that, he also can work a full time job without any restrictions or loss of income which is more than anyone on social security disability can say. If you make more than 1100 a month from a job on SSI you will lose your disability and if you make any money at all over 100/mo you have to pay it back into the system at a rate of 50%. SSI is loving terrible. The Slithery D posted:Yeah, but you don't have 100% military disability. That's worth ~$36k+ per year (depending on dependents) tax free, although "chronic pain" won't get you there. You can also work a full time job and the military can't just show up and say "Welp, not disabled anymore!" and take your benefits away You're a piece of poo poo but I genuinely appreciate and respect the fact that you are ideologically consistent enough to know what a load of horseshit "100% disability" is Mirthless fucked around with this message at 20:47 on Mar 22, 2016 |
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Mar 22, 2016 20:44
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Jarmak posted:That's more then I get My, all this holding forth about creating value for one's employer and it turns out you create very little!
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Mar 22, 2016 20:46
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Mirthless posted:
I was an infantryman, I lived in holes dug into mountaintops when I was in the east, and abandoned or occupied buildings when I was in the south, getting pulled back to live in some tents on one of those bases you're talking about for a week or two of refit was like going to Disneyland.
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Mar 22, 2016 20:47
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Quality post. Since this thread is nominally about tech, any discussion about unemployment protections looking towards the future should center on welfare reforms ideally in the form of negative taxation. Discussion of right to work is pretty pointless on this topic since in most tech applications highly skilled star coders are always wanted and so they can jet whenever mostly.
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Mar 22, 2016 20:47
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Jarmak posted:I was an infantryman, I lived in holes dug into mountaintops when I was in the east, and abandoned or occupied buildings when I was in the south, getting pulled back to live in some tents on one of those bases you're talking about for a week or two of refit was like going to Disneyland. oh no you had to go camping a few days a week for a year, poor baby  That's totally comparable to the people who freeze to death in central park every winter.
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Mar 22, 2016 20:48
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Mirthless posted:also my brother is on 100% disability (minor shrapnel wound in his leg, no loss of mobility) and not only does he collect substantially more than that, he also can work a full time job without any restrictions or loss of income Can I get his name and his congressional district, TIA. There's a lot of bullshit disability stuff (LOL at sleep apnea), but your brother must have more than a minor shrapnel wound in his leg to get that. PTSD can be a big component. Hell, I got 10% of my 20% for high blood pressure.
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Mar 22, 2016 20:48
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wateroverfire posted:If you set fire to your home the fire service puts the fire out and the police put you in jail. Unless you're in charge of the business in which case you get to pull lots of your workers' money out of the business and end up rich. Or if you're in charge of a really big business in which case you get to ask the government to give you a load of money and they do.
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Mar 22, 2016 20:50
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The Slithery D posted:Can I get his name and his congressional district, TIA. PTSD was a factor, yeah, but in fairness he had PTSD for about 15 years before he joined the army and the shrapnel just brought back his night terrors. Most of the poo poo he got out on was stuff that was wrong with him before he ever began military service. Like narcolepsy, the genetic condition our father gave him (he gave us the PTSD too, thanks dad!)
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Mar 22, 2016 20:53
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Coolness Averted posted:Dude, no offense but you sound like you literally have 0 experience with any of this poo poo and when people are coming in saying "In practice this is how it works," and then you just come back with more silly hypothetical "but-but the system is DESIGNED to work this other way!" It's called unemployment insurance for a reason, it isn't just a fancy name. Paying for insurance does not give you the right to demand payout whenever you wish without regard for the rules and condition that the insurance is offered (and the rates are set) under. If someone gets a new job a month after applying for unemployment, then clearly they didn't need unemployment after all. It's a safety net, not a benefit owed to you. If you don't need the safety net, it seems downright greedy to demand it anyway. ToxicSlurpee posted:So what about a person whose unemployment ran out, they have $25 to their name, and rent is due tomorrow? Better get to work on a time machine, then, because that bad situation they're in now was at least six months in the making, if not more, and solving it will probably involve going back and undoing a year or more of their life (or, if they're an educated white person, just having the government give them free money so they don't have to slum it with those people until they can get back into a proper white collar job). Next time, can you include a car analogy with your terrible bullshit loaded hypothetical? Twerkteam Pizza posted:Do you think that total GDP is not high enough or that there is a too high level of economic inequality? Which of these is the cause of homelessness in your mind? The primary cause of chronic homelessness is our system's inability to handle mental illness and substance abuse, to the point where people who end up unable or unwilling to hold down a regular job and normal life due to those problems end up on the streets. It's not a simple economic question.
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Mar 22, 2016 20:53
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Main Paineframe posted:It's called unemployment insurance for a reason, it isn't just a fancy name. Paying for insurance does not give you the right to demand payout whenever you wish without regard for the rules and condition that the insurance is offered (and the rates are set) under. Insurance is unethical hth.
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Mar 22, 2016 20:55
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Main Paineframe posted:If someone gets a new job a month after applying for unemployment, then clearly they didn't need unemployment after all. I don't know why you feel like this is an assumption that you can safely make. Many, many Americans are living paycheck to paycheck and missing a month of income can have long-term repercussions.
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Mar 22, 2016 20:56
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The Slithery D posted:
That was my point SedanChair posted:My, all this holding forth about creating value for one's employer and it turns out you create very little! I'm now a student so I don't know what the gently caress you're talking about. Mirthless posted:also my brother is on 100% disability (minor shrapnel wound in his leg, no loss of mobility) and not only does he collect substantially more than that, he also can work a full time job without any restrictions or loss of income which is more than anyone on social security disability can say. If you make more than 1100 a month from a job on SSI you will lose your disability and if you make any money at all over 100/mo you have to pay it back into the system at a rate of 50%. SSI is loving terrible. Disability percentages don't work like that, though yay I guess your brother managed to milk the system for everything it's worth. Military disability is not like SS disability where they're making up for your inability to work, military disability is compensating you for permanent damage you suffer due to military service. Its not "hey x is hosed up so now we pay you because you can't work (like SS)", its "hey we broke x for the rest of your life and now we have to pay for it". Mirthless posted:oh no you had to go camping a few days a week for a year, poor baby okay now you're just trolling
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Mar 22, 2016 20:56
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Main Paineframe posted:Better get to work on a time machine, then, because that bad situation they're in now was at least six months in the making, if not more, and solving it will probably involve going back and undoing a year or more of their life (or, if they're an educated white person, just having the government give them free money so they don't have to slum it with those people until they can get back into a proper white collar job). Next time, can you include a car analogy with your terrible bullshit loaded hypothetical? Not everyone has 100% control over their financial circumstances at any given time. If you want a loving car analogy, what happens if your reliable transportation dies, you miss a day of work getting it repaired, blow your savings on the repair and come in to find you're out of a job? Is the mechanic going to give you back your savings? You're not going to win unemployment, you got fired with cause! ("reliable transport", btw, is not just a valid reason to fire you, it's also a valid reason to get denied unemployment in many states! Good luck finding a job without a loving car) Other countries offer unemployment benefits regardless of the trumped up reasons their employers come up with to fire them. Hell, many other countries make it outright illegal or excessively prohibitive to fire their employees. Japan's economy is doing just fine (well, not at the moment, but not because they can't fire people, so lol) and their employment laws are so restrictive that most large companies (like Mitsubishi!  ) over there have entire divisions devoted to people whose jobs have been eliminated. They just show up, sit in a chair for eight hours and go home. Really!
Mirthless fucked around with this message at 21:08 on Mar 22, 2016 |
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Mar 22, 2016 20:58
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Eletriarnation posted:I don't know why you feel like this is an assumption that you can safely make. Many, many Americans are living paycheck to paycheck and missing a month of income can have long-term repercussions. http://www.marketwatch.com/story/most-americans-have-less-than-1000-in-savings-2015-10-06 As a matter of fact, 62% of americans are hosed if they become unemployed and don't get benefits
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Mar 22, 2016 20:59
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Eletriarnation posted:I don't know why you feel like this is an assumption that you can safely make. Many, many Americans are living paycheck to paycheck and missing a month of income can have long-term repercussions. It's an assumption he is willing to play with even if you debate it
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Mar 22, 2016 21:06
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quote:Other countries over unemployment benefits regardless of the trumped up reasons their employers come up with to fire them. Holy poo poo basically what I was saying and something that is actually relevant to upcoming technological unemployment, and thus the thread subject! quote:They just show up, sit in a chair for eight hours and go home. Really! gently caress that.
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Mar 22, 2016 21:11
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Eletriarnation posted:I don't know why you feel like this is an assumption that you can safely make. Many, many Americans are living paycheck to paycheck and missing a month of income can have long-term repercussions. Clearly they got through it somehow, though, and now that they have a steady source of income again they can start working on undoing any consequences they might have accrued. I'm a little uncomfortable with someone who doesn't and didn't need a benefit insisting that the system owes them the money anyway. Mirthless posted:Not everyone has 100% control over their financial circumstances at any given time. If you want a loving car analogy, what happens if your reliable transportation dies, you miss a day of work getting it repaired, blow your savings on the repair and come in to find you're out of a job? Is the mechanic going to give you back your savings? You're not going to win unemployment, you got fired with cause! If your reliable transportation dies, and you're in an employment situation where you can't just take a sick day or work out a new schedule with your boss, then you need to find an alternative mode of transportation. Get a ride from a friend or co-worker, take public transport if it's available, or just call a loving
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Mar 22, 2016 21:12
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Main Paineframe posted:Clearly they got through it somehow, though, and now that they have a steady source of income again they can start working on undoing any consequences they might have accrued. I'm a little uncomfortable with someone who doesn't and didn't need a benefit insisting that the system owes them the money anyway I agree, we should end all corporate subsidies and increase the upper marginal tax rate back to 65% also: 1. public transportation is unavailable in the overwhelming majority of the country and "I'm gonna need to take the bus so I need schedule accomodations" is unfortunat-ese for "I quit"/"please fire me" 2. spending 60 dollars on ubers a day is not reasonable for someone who makes 14 dollars an hour before taxes. That's half your daily income on transportation alone. Where's the money for bills going to come from? tech industry HENRYs who literally cannot comprehend a scenario where someone makes under 60k a year itt "just take an uber or borrow 20k from your parents like I did!" Sure thing, Mitt Mirthless fucked around with this message at 21:24 on Mar 22, 2016 |
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Mar 22, 2016 21:17
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Main Paineframe posted:It's called unemployment insurance for a reason, it isn't just a fancy name. Paying for insurance does not give you the right to demand payout whenever you wish without regard for the rules and condition that the insurance is offered (and the rates are set) under. When's the next open enrollment period? I should probably make sure my workers sign up for the unemployment plans that benefit them/opt out of insurance that doesn't give them meaningful coverage. Unrelated to your post Paineframe but wow this thread is massively derailed. I say as someone who hasn't posted a single tangentially related post. But wow, we've learned life has completely poo poo on some folks and others are trolls or psychopaths.
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Mar 22, 2016 21:23
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Jarmak posted:I was an infantryman, I lived in holes dug into mountaintops when I was in the east, and abandoned or occupied buildings when I was in the south, getting pulled back to live in some tents on one of those bases you're talking about for a week or two of refit was like going to Disneyland. that's cool well i paid for college myself instead of relying on government handouts after working in one of uncle sam's warehouses for a few years like 90% of servicemembers
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Mar 22, 2016 21:34
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We shouldn't let people starve and freeze to death
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Mar 22, 2016 21:38
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Fried Watermelon posted:We shouldn't let people starve and freeze to death As long as they can jump through some arbitrary hoops I define to prove they will starve and freeze to death otherwise, sure, let's help them. Otherwise, we're really just rewarding them with a free vacation and lots of free time. - Jarmak, wateroverfire, The Slithery D
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Mar 22, 2016 21:43
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Fried Watermelon posted:We shouldn't let people starve and freeze to death Earn your right to exist by generating profit for somebody with more money than you. If you can't then you chose to be worthless and should go die in a gutter where I can't see it.
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Mar 22, 2016 21:44
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a shameful boehner posted:As long as they can jump through some arbitrary hoops I define to prove they will starve and freeze to death otherwise, sure, let's help them. Otherwise, we're really just rewarding them with a free vacation and lots of free time. ToxicSlurpee posted:Earn your right to exist by generating profit for somebody with more money than you. If you can't then you chose to be worthless and should go die in a gutter where I can't see it. It's weird how Fried Watermelon posted:We shouldn't let people starve and freeze to death is a loving political statement instead of a given decency these days. What the gently caress is wrong with you if you think that other's suffering is just 'how it should be' or 'unfortunate, but necessary.' Main Paineframe posted:The primary cause of chronic homelessness is our system's inability to handle mental illness and substance abuse, to the point where people who end up unable or unwilling to hold down a regular job and normal life due to those problems end up on the streets. It's not a simple economic question. This is the ONLY reply I've gotten not filled with bootstraps rhetoric and/or trolling on DnD. Thanks Main Painframe. the problem is definitely exacerbated by these factors and I concede that point.
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Mar 22, 2016 21:53
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Twerkteam Pizza posted:It's weird how is a loving political statement instead of a given decency these days. What the gently caress is wrong with you if you think that other's suffering is just 'how it should be' or 'unfortunate, but necessary.' The thing that bothers me most is that when you point out that "nah, gently caress 'em, let 'em starve" is a really, really lovely thing to say you get responses of "well I just like freedom." Far, far too many people would rather let people starve to death or die of exposure than be slightly inconvenienced or pay taxes.
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Mar 22, 2016 21:56
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Coolness Averted posted:If unemployment insurance was just some cool service we offered as a society that came out of the general fund as needed, such denials and an uphill struggle would make sense, but employees lose a chunk of their paycheck directly to pay for unemployment, and get capped on benefits based on their pay-in. Why is society not obligated to pay that back? Is California running a long-term surplus from its insurance payments? If not, workers are getting out at least what they're putting in. The state might suck at administering the process. But that means that the state sucks at running things. Not that the program is too small or stingy.
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Mar 22, 2016 21:57
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TechBro helped start chain of events that led to young man's death at hands of cop "What? Why would a guy chilling with his lunch be afraid that my unleashed Siberian Husky was running toward him and kept trying to jump up at him? I was too busy staring at some nice jogger rear end to mind my pet!"
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Mar 22, 2016 21:59
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Twerkteam Pizza posted:It's weird how It would help I think if the Conservatives found a Religion something to guide them, maybe one with a central figure who believed in forgiveness and helping the poor.
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Mar 22, 2016 21:59
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ToxicSlurpee posted:The thing that bothers me most is that when you point out that "nah, gently caress 'em, let 'em starve" is a really, really lovely thing to say you get responses of "well I just like freedom." What do safety nets have to do with an insurance program for the recently-employed? Unemployment insurance, no matter how much you scaled it, would be a lovely way to keep people from starving. By design, it excludes huge swaths of needy people. And there's something hosed up about a "safety net" where payments go up based on how much money someone made in the last year.
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Mar 22, 2016 22:00
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Also note that 2/3 people I mentioned receive the biggest handouts in the country because of serving in the military lmao (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 22, 2016 22:01
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falcon2424 posted:What do safety nets have to do with an insurance program for the recently-employed? A lot, actually; that's supposed to be part of the safety net. You pay unemployment insurance then have an easy time getting some scratch when you're between jobs. It's separate from other, longer-term things but the issue with America's system in general is that so much of pretty much everything is tied strongly to having a job. Now you have this stupid gig economy loving even that up. Why hire somebody for a full-time, permanent position when apps let you snag day laborers only when you need them? What do you mean that will directly lead to social unrest as poverty increases?
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Mar 22, 2016 22:08
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Fried Watermelon posted:We shouldn't let people starve and freeze to death You get more of what you reward. The more people you pay to starve and freeze to death, the more people will choose to starve and freeze to death. This isn't rocket science. And which "people" should we be assisting? North Koreans? Americans? People in my city? People who agree with my ideology? My family? I can make a stronger case for some of those than others. Amazingly enough, places were you traditionally starved or froze to death if you made bad choices are generally the only places with stuff nice enough to (temporarily) provide handouts to people who make bad choices and are going to starve or freeze to death. ToxicSlurpee posted:Earn your right to exist by generating profit for somebody with more money than you. If you can't then you chose to be worthless and should go die in a gutter where I can't see it. Exactly. FilthyImp posted:TechBro helped start chain of events that led to young man's death at hands of cop Weirdly, I can't find any reference that he did in fact start this chain of events by inviting the decedent's parents on a H1B. quote:Refugio and Elvira Nieto are reserved people, straight-backed but careworn, who speak eloquently in Spanish and hardly at all in English. They had known each other as poor children in a little town in central Mexico and emigrated separately to the Bay Area in the 1970s, where they met again and married in 1984.
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Mar 22, 2016 22:14
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H.P. Hovercraft posted:that's cool well i paid for college myself instead of relying on government handouts after working in one of uncle sam's warehouses for a few years like 90% of servicemembers If you repeat this troll a couple times I might finally bite. falcon2424 posted:What do safety nets have to do with an insurance program for the recently-employed? This, really we should be looking at guaranteed minimum income.
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Mar 22, 2016 22:17
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