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-Troika- posted:Some other people did a bad thing, so this excuses this bad thing. Nope. No one's talking about excuses except for you and a couple other "race realist" types here. The reality is, a horrible atrocity was committed in Belgium, and there is no excuse. The people who perpetrated it must be brought to justice. However, beyond that, there are things that can be done to prevent this sort of thing from happening again. One of them is not "continuing to treat Muslims like second class citizens/an inherent threat."
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Mar 23, 2016 07:36
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GreyjoyBastard posted:Double edit: No really, Mr Leet. I seem to recall you have opinions about Muslims. How should They be treated in an enlightened Western democracy? What a no-brainer: In accord with the will of a majority of the electorate.
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Mar 23, 2016 08:17
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Badger of Basra posted:What does integration mean to you? Slightly browner Europeans?
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Mar 23, 2016 08:22
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The municipality of Molenbeek, which has apparently become a household name internationally, was ruled by the French-speaking socialists for twenty years. The mayor, Philippe Moureaux, was elected on a platform of minority inclusion and at the federal level has been a co-sponsor of the laws against discrimination and the law granting foreign citizens the right to vote in municipal elections. He became almost proverbial as a proponent of happy-go-lucky nineties multiculturalism and would consistently deny and minimize the problems in his municipality, deflecting any criticism with accusations of racism. The idea that the local muslims there are 'lashing out' against 'second-class' treatment by the fascist Belgians is mind-bogglingly stupid, but I am not angry or surprised. I know how D&D brains are wired. Categories of people that are not deemed to be sociologically privileged have no agency, they have no goals or motivations of their own, and any undesirable behavior that they might display is purely a reaction to systemic oppression. You can predict the posts almost word for word every time something like this happens. The perpetrators of this specific attack apparently weren't even Belgian nationals, but I imagine in that case the ultimate cause is European racism more generally.
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Mar 23, 2016 08:25
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Volkerball posted:this was the strategy in iraq from 2003-2007.
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Mar 23, 2016 08:49
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Lyesh posted:Ain't a single person in this thread excusing this bad thing, so I have no idea what you're talking about. Nobody posting here wants to see the specific people who performed this attack and are proven to do so in a court of law walk free. If the guy I quoted didn't want to excuse or migitate the actions of the terrorists somehow then he would have no reason to post what he did.
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Mar 23, 2016 09:07
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Phlegmish posted:The municipality of Molenbeek, which has apparently become a household name internationally, was ruled by the French-speaking socialists for twenty years. The mayor, Philippe Moureaux, was elected on a platform of minority inclusion and at the federal level has been a co-sponsor of the laws against discrimination and the law granting foreign citizens the right to vote in municipal elections. He became almost proverbial as a proponent of happy-go-lucky nineties multiculturalism and would consistently deny and minimize the problems in his municipality, deflecting any criticism with accusations of racism. Actually according to various news sources this morning, they are Belgian nationals.
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Mar 23, 2016 09:35
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Phlegmish posted:The municipality of Molenbeek, which has apparently become a household name internationally, was ruled by the French-speaking socialists for twenty years. The mayor, Philippe Moureaux, was elected on a platform of minority inclusion and at the federal level has been a co-sponsor of the laws against discrimination and the law granting foreign citizens the right to vote in municipal elections. He became almost proverbial as a proponent of happy-go-lucky nineties multiculturalism and would consistently deny and minimize the problems in his municipality, deflecting any criticism with accusations of racism. Belgians are so racist that even when they do everything in their power to emancipate their minorities, they are actually oppressors.
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Mar 23, 2016 09:42
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im here to help you idiots ask me about living alongside islamic neighborhoods in nw europe (mainly netherlands) for several years now
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Mar 23, 2016 09:56
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When ever I read peoples opinions on here or on the news sites or even hear from politicians. The scary impression I get is that nobody really knows what to do about the situation. The rights pie in the sky ideas about building walls/fences and the lefts idea that we just put some more money into schools and cross our fingers that the nasty men go away. Nobody seems to have a clue. Depressing.
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Mar 23, 2016 09:57
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as halfway crooks posted:im here to help you idiots Uh... So, what's it like iving alongside islamic neighborhoods in nw europe (mainly netherlands) for several years now?
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Mar 23, 2016 09:58
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steinrokkan posted:Belgians are so racist that even when they do everything in their power to emancipate their minorities, they are actually oppressors. Yup, social exclusion, discrimination and racism in the labour market and society at large magically disappear after laws are passed to fight them, and these laws are 100% efffective. Also, if social exclusion is not a direct cause for any particular person to become a terrorist it can't be a contributing factor at all.
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Mar 23, 2016 10:00
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as halfway crooks posted:im here to help you idiots How high percentage of Muslims? How high is (youth) unemployment in your neighborhood? What is the country of origin of the Muslims? What is the median income on your neighborhood?
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Mar 23, 2016 10:01
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Jippa posted:When ever I read peoples opinions on here or on the news sites or even hear from politicians. The scary impression I get is that nobody really knows what to do about the situation. The matter of fact is that there's no 100% sure way of preventing people from getting sucked into a radical ideology, religious or otherwise. See - Red Brigades, Red Army Factions. It can happen to people from all possible backgrounds, and simply improving material conditions won't help because no matter how well-off you are, you are not an automaton and can always choose to go against the flow, so to speak. There's always the element of free will to destroy the idea that human actions are determined by their environment. What we can do, however, is recognize which ideology calls for violence against our nations, and find out how to reduce the exposure of the general populace to it. In the 60s - 90s, it was revolutionary Communism, sponsored by Stasi and the KGB; nowadays it's a particular, state-sponsored branch of the salafist Sunni Islam. Pluskut Tukker posted:Yup, social exclusion, discrimination and racism in the labour market and society at large magically disappear after laws are passed to fight them, and these laws are 100% efffective. Also, if social exclusion is not a direct cause for any particular person to become a terrorist it can't be a contributing factor at all. Nice meltdown. I wonder if you imagine that part of town as some sort of shanty town or something. steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 10:10 on Mar 23, 2016 |
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Mar 23, 2016 10:06
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as halfway crooks posted:im here to help you idiots
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Mar 23, 2016 10:16
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steinrokkan posted:The matter of fact is that there's no 100% sure way of preventing people from getting sucked into a radical ideology, religious or otherwise. See - Red Brigades, Red Army Factions. It can happen to people from all possible backgrounds, and simply improving material conditions won't help because no matter how well-off you are, you are not an automaton and can always choose to go against the flow, so to speak. There's always the element of free will to destroy the idea that human actions are determined by their environment. What we also can do is to recognize which ideology calls for violence against our nations and stop giving it money. In fact to me, literally financing and arming the people wanting to kill us is really the first in "things we need to stop doing right now". I think making sure Salafist Sunni Islam doesn't have billions of dollars of our money to spread it's ideology is a pretty great way to reduce its exposure!
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Mar 23, 2016 10:24
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Isn't it a bit disingenuous to think that Muslims will just wake up one day and go "wow this is dumb" without the underlying factors changing? What are young Muslims supposed to believe in?
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Mar 23, 2016 10:24
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steinrokkan posted:What we can do, however, is recognize which ideology calls for violence against our nations, and find out how to reduce the exposure of the general populace to it. In the 60s - 90s, it was revolutionary Communism, sponsored by Stasi and the KGB; nowadays it's a particular, state-sponsored branch of the salafist Sunni Islam. In defense of actual literal McCarthyism...
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Mar 23, 2016 10:25
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KaptainKrunk posted:What are young Muslims supposed to believe in? Well, maybe in advancement through education?
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Mar 23, 2016 10:27
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steinrokkan posted:Nice meltdown. I wonder if you imagine that part of town as some sort of shanty town or something. Dude, I don't disagree that 'there's no 100% sure way of preventing people from getting sucked into a radical ideology, religious or otherwise'. But social exclusion doesn't mean poverty, it means not being part of society, and thus being more likely to lash out against it. Anyway, you can stop wondering; I don''t.
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Mar 23, 2016 10:44
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steinrokkan posted:Uh... So, what's it like iving alongside islamic neighborhoods in nw europe (mainly netherlands) for several years now? its great groceries are about half the price of the national supermarket chains and i get my hair cut by a guy who loves to talk about the superiority of the islamic banking system ("no interest!") for 10e i am american fyi GaussianCopula posted:How high percentage of Muslims? tough to say since its a "scene" and thus a lot of non-local residents who come (from within a couple km) to participate in the straatcultuur its a cool straatcultuur imho and way different than what i know from the states majority are second gen moroccan or turkish (very different group in terms of behavior / social enfranchisment), however the effects of the recent migration wave are starting to be visible (new faces in the neighborhood) and this is not a major destination so i can only imagine what it is like in places like malmo A Buttery Pastry posted:When you say Islamic here, what do you mean? Because the term is usually used in the sense of "relating to Islam", as opposed to Muslim, which just means the neighborhood is primarily composed of Muslims. An Islamic neighborhood to my mind essentially means it's being run according to Islamic standards/rules, whatever they may be according to the local adherents, whereas a Muslim neighborhood could be entirely secular. yes ur right by islamic i mean culturally, not that we have a sharia patrol 90%+ immigrant owned businesses (bakers, barbers / beauty salons, grocers, kebab houses, halal butchers, money transfer services, tea salons) islamic banks car parades for weddings on the weekend multiple mosques, call to prayer heard regularly youth scooter gangs ask
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Mar 23, 2016 11:06
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Najim Laachraoui was arrested
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Mar 23, 2016 11:11
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GaussianCopula posted:Well, maybe in advancement through education? This I presume will be in the schools where abuse is heaped on them?
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Mar 23, 2016 11:15
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as halfway crooks posted:car parades for weddings on the weekend This is also an eastern European thing.
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Mar 23, 2016 11:17
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KaptainKrunk posted:Isn't it a bit disingenuous to think that Muslims will just wake up one day and go "wow this is dumb" without the underlying factors changing? this is the most important question for w europe atm imho ideally nationalism but nationalism has been made something of a social taboo among the educated classes and this attitude trickles down the (limited) interactions between those classes and first / second gen immigrants, to where there is not strong advocacy for (dutch / german) culture basically there is no compelling narrative for how to be the son of a gastarbeiter, they have a sense of having lost something but have not replaced it with the traditions of their adopted home, support for the local football club at best "multiculturalism" has basically been a decades-long excuse to leave these new neighbors to their own devices and in the end everyone is unhappy with the results
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Mar 23, 2016 11:23
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Jippa posted:When ever I read peoples opinions on here or on the news sites or even hear from politicians. The scary impression I get is that nobody really knows what to do about the situation. Well, what's our third option? Gear up for yet another round of getting shot at in the desert and only accomplishing knocking down the power structure so the next warlord to come along can roll the place again?
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Mar 23, 2016 11:25
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SedanChair posted:This I presume will be in the schools where abuse is heaped on them? dumb post education here is highly meritocratic - indeed perhaps too meritocratic but to claim systemic abuse in education as an in-culturing issue only reveals your ignorance the problem is that education is not an effective path to social enfranchisement
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Mar 23, 2016 11:32
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Liquid Communism posted:Well, what's our third option? Gear up for yet another round of getting shot at in the desert and only accomplishing knocking down the power structure so the next warlord to come along can roll the place again? I've no idea but then I'm just some idiot on the internet.
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Mar 23, 2016 11:35
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Jippa posted:When ever I read peoples opinions on here or on the news sites or even hear from politicians. The scary impression I get is that nobody really knows what to do about the situation. Here is a clue - don't give them money. Sounds pretty simple but our countries are literally handing billions of dollars to the people financing, supporting and planning these attacks, constantly. Instead of focusing on the end results we could not give Wahhabists money. Sure they would still do poo poo, but you can do lot less poo poo with sand and oil then you can do with billions of dollars.
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Mar 23, 2016 11:43
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as halfway crooks posted:this is the most important question for w europe atm imho I said this in another thread around the time of the paris attacks but belgium seems to have only just started picking footballers from immigrant communities (in comparison too it's neighbours). This has lead to them having their strongest team for ages. Man City captain Vincent Kompany who is from Molenbeek did this short interview on it a while back, nothing that ground breaking but interesting: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/vincent-kompany-defends-molenbeek-its-not-what-the-media-makes-it-out-to-be-a6790736.html
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Mar 23, 2016 11:44
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as halfway crooks posted:dumb post I don't know what any of this is supposed to mean.
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Mar 23, 2016 11:55
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Jippa posted:http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/vincent-kompany-defends-molenbeek-its-not-what-the-media-makes-it-out-to-be-a6790736.html good link it is shocking how good belgium is at sport both for its size and its inability to work together on anything off the field SedanChair posted:I don't know what any of this is supposed to mean. words too big for u?
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Mar 23, 2016 12:04
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Etalommi posted:In defense of actual literal McCarthyism... Are you so retarded that you think the Stasi had no spies in Germany?
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Mar 23, 2016 12:08
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steinrokkan posted:Are you so retarded that you think the Stasi had no spies in Germany? There were Soviet spies in the States as well. Does that make McCarthyism acceptable?
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Mar 23, 2016 12:10
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SedanChair posted:This I presume will be in the schools where abuse is heaped on them? Ah yeah, Phlegmish was right that you are basically reducing them to single cell organisms that merely react instinctively, mechanically to external stimuli.
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Mar 23, 2016 12:11
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The Larch posted:There were Soviet spies in the States as well. Does that make McCarthyism acceptable? Why the gently caress are you even talking about McCarthyism. I guess we need to support Saudi agenda not to hurt the feelings of SA people.
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Mar 23, 2016 12:12
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Pluskut Tukker posted:Yup, social exclusion, discrimination and racism in the labour market and society at large magically disappear after laws are passed to fight them, and these laws are 100% efffective. Also, if social exclusion is not a direct cause for any particular person to become a terrorist it can't be a contributing factor at all. Pluskut Tukker posted:Dude, I don't disagree that 'there's no 100% sure way of preventing people from getting sucked into a radical ideology, religious or otherwise'. But social exclusion doesn't mean poverty, it means not being part of society, and thus being more likely to lash out against it. Anyway, you can stop wondering; I don''t. SedanChair posted:This I presume will be in the schools where abuse is heaped on them? So what I'm getting is that the evil European is just too goshdang racist to ever allow Muslims to integrate, even when they have the best intentions and try to fight against racism they're still racist; and Muslims will always and forever be cruelly oppressed in Europe, to the point where they have no choice but to lash out and bomb people. Based on these data facts, there are only two possible courses of action: either relocate all Muslims to countries where they will be tolerated, or genocide all the horrible white people so that they will stop being so racist. I'm glad D&D is there to teach us that ethnic cleansing is the only solution to any societal problem.
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Mar 23, 2016 12:29
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Cat Mattress posted:So what I'm getting is that the evil European is just too goshdang racist to ever allow Muslims to integrate, even when they have the best intentions and try to fight against racism they're still racist; and Muslims will always and forever be cruelly oppressed in Europe, to the point where they have no choice but to lash out and bomb people. I have absolutely no idea how you came to that conclusion from my posts.
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Mar 23, 2016 12:35
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as halfway crooks posted:its great as halfway crooks posted:"multiculturalism" has basically been a decades-long excuse to leave these new neighbors to their own devices and in the end everyone is unhappy with the results You moved to such a neighborhood and enjoy the life there but at the same time you're saying that the politics that created those neighborhoods are a failure and the results are bad? SedanChair posted:This I presume will be in the schools where abuse is heaped on them? Do you have any sources on that? Is it white schoolteachers abusing immigrant kids? Or white kids abusing immigrant kids (in neighborhoods which are predominantly immigrant/multicultural and in which whites are not a majority)?
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Mar 23, 2016 12:41
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Why should the laws be 100% effective before you actually start examining other possibilities? Here's a radical thought: maybe the muslims aren't integrating, because they don't want to integrate. In that scenario, they'll always be excluded, because that's what they prefer, and there'll always be bombings regardless of whatever laws are passed, because of that self-isolation and its consequences.
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Mar 23, 2016 12:44
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