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OwlFancier posted:I'm not sure why a mild alteration to which pronoun you use upon request really fits into any of those categories. I assure you it does. "They" is a pat on the head, anything else isn't going to happen. If a Man/Woman/Them can be, do, look like, act like anything, why be a xe?
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Mar 23, 2016 20:31
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Frosted Flake posted:If a Man/Woman/Them can be, do, look like, act like anything, why be a xe? Because that way they always get to be a persecuted underdog.
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Mar 23, 2016 20:33
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the trump tutelage posted:I don't think it's basic decency. Basic decency is not expecting people to accommodate your special snowflakeisms. Is it basic human decency to accommodate your goth friend when they insist their name is now Raven? Yes? I mean I assume there's a reason they're your friend, you're a bit of a dickhead if you go off on one at the prospect of calling them a different name. Frosted Flake posted:I assure you it does. "They" is a pat on the head, anything else isn't going to happen. Because amazingly some people wish to assert a sense of individuality and this is something that most other people are already entitled to do. If you want to assert your manliness or womanliness you think that's fine, but god forbid anyone wish to assert any other sort of identity, because I'm not even loving acknowledging that because it's insane! OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 20:37 on Mar 23, 2016 |
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Mar 23, 2016 20:34
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OwlFancier posted:Because amazingly some people wish to be special snowflakes. Ftfy. I'm glad you're being upfront about it. There's no substance to it. It's all about making them feel like special individuals.
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Mar 23, 2016 20:40
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Person wanting to be a man: Perfectly reasonable thing. Person wanting to be gender neutral: Loooooooooool get rekt nerd who ever heard of that that's not real go back to reddit haha
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Mar 23, 2016 20:42
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OwlFancier posted:Yes? I mean I assume there's a reason they're your friend, you're a bit of a dickhead if you go off on one at the prospect of calling them a different name. Does refusing to address someone with a preferred pronoun prevent that person from expressing their idenitiy?
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Mar 23, 2016 20:43
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I guess we just have fundamentally opposed perspectives on the place and role of the individual in society.
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Mar 23, 2016 20:43
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Sulphuric rear end in a top hat posted:Does refusing to address someone with a preferred pronoun prevent that person from expressing their idenitiy? It is certainly rude to refuse to acknowledge that identity. If everyone does it then it can certainly have a rather deleterious effect on a person's mental wellbeing.
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Mar 23, 2016 20:47
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the trump tutelage posted:I guess we just have fundamentally opposed perspectives on the place and role of the individual in society. In that some believe society should bend to the individual, and some believe the individual should bend to society. A lesson to learn for success in team sports, school, the military and the workplace is "Fit In or gently caress Off". e: OwlFancier posted:It is certainly rude to refuse to acknowledge that identity. If everyone does it then it can certainly have a rather deleterious effect on a person's mental wellbeing. Frankly, if your mental wellbeing hinges on being called invented words to back up fantastical concepts to support a bizarre identity, you're in trouble to begin with.
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Mar 23, 2016 20:47
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Frosted Flake posted:Frankly, if your mental wellbeing hinges on being called invented words to back up fantastical concepts to support a bizarre identity, you're in trouble to begin with. So, what was all that stuff earlier about the sanctity of the word "woman"?
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Mar 23, 2016 20:50
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OwlFancier posted:It is certainly rude to refuse to acknowledge that identity. If everyone does it then it can certainly have a rather deleterious effect on a person's mental wellbeing. Is external validation required for a person to properly identify as something?
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Mar 23, 2016 20:51
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Sulphuric rear end in a top hat posted:Is external validation required for a person to properly identify as something? I dunno. Depends on the person I suppose? Most people are social creatures and having their necessary social interaction come with a sizeable dose of attempts to illegtimize their identity seems like it might be bad for their health.
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Mar 23, 2016 20:52
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the trump tutelage posted:I don't think it's basic decency. Basic decency is not expecting people to accommodate your special snowflakeisms. Is it basic human decency to accommodate your goth friend when they insist their name is now Raven? Yes. I know that having friends is probably completely alien to you, but generally if your friend asks you to do something trivial you do it out of respect for them. The Kingfish posted:E: homos can obviously call themselves whatever they want, as long as they don't expect to be taken seriously in an interview/application/classroom/anywhere outside of their hugbox. Hmmm, yes. Frosted Flake posted:I assure you it does. "They" is a pat on the head, anything else isn't going to happen. Why not? Answer the question, coward.
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Mar 23, 2016 20:54
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OwlFancier posted:So, what was all that stuff earlier about the sanctity of the word "woman"? That wasn't me bruh.  E: OwlFancier posted:I dunno. Depends on the person I suppose? Most people are social creatures and having their necessary social interaction come with a sizeable dose of attempts to illegtimize their identity seems like it might be bad for their health. I think you're working backwards here. The people on the verge of mental collapse because they want people to address them as "xe" would do better to stop jousting at windmills. I might be so bold as to venture that people with 'illegitimate' identities might already have social issues and precarious mental health. Frosted Flake fucked around with this message at 20:58 on Mar 23, 2016 |
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Mar 23, 2016 20:55
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Eh, you lot all look the same to me.
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Mar 23, 2016 20:57
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Frosted Flake posted:In that some believe society should bend to the individual, and some believe the individual should bend to society. That seems to be a bit over the top, perhaps you should call it something like "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"?
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Mar 23, 2016 20:57
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What is the upper limit on arbitrary pronouns? Qe xie qui xir rix flim flam. I seem to have accidentally referred to my flim friend as a flam and now flum's FURIOUS at me.
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Mar 23, 2016 21:04
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Who What Now posted:Why not? Answer the question, coward. As the person siding with status quo, I'd say the burden of proof is on those challenging it. "Because they feel X in their head" and "nothing means anything anyways" aren't very compelling arguments. On an anecdotal level, people with 'unconventional' identities tend to be mercurial to say the least. Changing names, identities, sexualities again and again. Maybe they're trying to fill a void. In any case, to me stability and purpose have meaning. If wearing a binder makes you feel whole one day but three months later you need a packer, then a name change, then to be called different pronouns it seems like your chasing something that being called "xe" won't fix.
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Mar 23, 2016 21:05
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Nevvy Z posted:What is the upper limit on arbitrary pronouns? I dunno how many friends do you have that want them? Frosted Flake posted:As the person siding with status quo, I'd say the burden of proof is on those challenging it. "Because they feel X in their head" and "nothing means anything anyways" aren't very compelling arguments. That is a very elaborate way of saying "whatever queers are crazy lol gently caress them"
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Mar 23, 2016 21:05
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Frosted Flake posted:As the person siding with status quo, I'd say the burden of proof is on those challenging it. "Because they feel X in their head" and "nothing means anything anyways" aren't very compelling arguments. Because it's trivially easy and a show of basic respect between two individuals. Now explain why you should be allowed to be an rear end in a top hat for absolutely no good reason without being called out on it. quote:On an anecdotal level, people with 'unconventional' identities tend to be mercurial to say the least. Changing names, identities, sexualities again and again. Maybe they're trying to fill a void. In any case, to me stability and purpose have meaning. If wearing a binder makes you feel whole one day but three months later you need a packer, then a name change, then to be called different pronouns it seems like your chasing something that being called "xe" won't fix. I don't really care about your stdh.txt. But that aside, you really need to stop coopting anti-gay rhetoric to make your arguments. It doesn't make you look good. Who What Now fucked around with this message at 21:12 on Mar 23, 2016 |
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Mar 23, 2016 21:09
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Well, I didn't make it up for one thing, although it is an anecdote. Beyond that, respect is earned and I don't have to buy into someone else's conceptions of society just because it hurts their feelings to disagree.
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Mar 23, 2016 21:13
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Respect isn't earned, it's given until there's a reason to not give it. How many times have you read The Fountainhead, out of interest?
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Mar 23, 2016 21:19
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Respect may be earned but courtesy can and should be given freely.
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Mar 23, 2016 21:21
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Zero times. I've voted NDP every election and volunteer for the labour council. What's your point?
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Mar 23, 2016 21:25
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Frosted Flake posted:Well, I didn't make it up for one thing, although it is an anecdote. Yes, I'm sure you've seen all sorts of memes and tumblr posts about it. quote:Beyond that, respect is earned and I don't have to buy into someone else's conceptions of society just because it hurts their feelings to disagree. Woah there, Mr. Just-Entered-High-School, do your parents know you stole their credit card to register an account here? Ok, junior, if not out of respect then out of common decency. Edit: Supposed burden of proof or no, I want you to explain how you, personally, are negatively affected by calling someone by a non-standard pronoun. How does it harm you? Who What Now fucked around with this message at 21:30 on Mar 23, 2016 |
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Mar 23, 2016 21:26
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Who What Now posted:Yes, I'm sure you've seen all sorts of memes and tumblr posts about it. The Kingfish posted:Performing gender is a two-way street. Plus it's annoying and hard to remember. Also it's made up and it's stupid. The Kingfish fucked around with this message at 21:39 on Mar 23, 2016 |
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Mar 23, 2016 21:36
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The Kingfish posted:Plus it's annoying and hard to remember. Also it's made up and it's stupid. So you think queers are icky. And?
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Mar 23, 2016 21:45
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Who What Now posted:So you think queers are icky. And? That is the second time you've ignored content of my post. This sort of targeted intellectual ostracization is highly othering.
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Mar 23, 2016 21:49
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Who What Now posted:Yes, I'm sure you've seen all sorts of memes and tumblr posts about it. I actually know these people, unfortunately. I didn't think people like this existed until I had to interact with them. People are people, and I'm willing to be courteous and say "they". Surely their identity isn't so fragile that they need my approval?
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Mar 23, 2016 21:56
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The Kingfish posted:That is the second time you've ignored content of my post. This sort of targeted intellectual ostracization is highly othering. What did I ignore? You said: quote:Performing gender is a two-way street. Or, pared down, (gender)queer people make you feel uncomfortable (because you don't know how to act like a big tough manly-man or something?). But the best way to not be made to feel uncomfortable is to gain an understanding, and the best way to gain an understanding is to interact with someone respectfully. So your argument doesn't really work, see? Edit: Frosted Flake posted:I actually know these people, unfortunately. I didn't think people like this existed until I had to interact with them. Surely your own identity isn't so fragile you can't bear to use a non-standard pronoun? And, again, it isn't about your approval, it's about testing other adults with a bare minimum amount of consideration. Using a certain pronoun costs you absolutely nothing, and you know it because you're completely unable to give me a single solitary reason why you can't do it, so you clumsily try to change the subject every time. Who What Now fucked around with this message at 21:59 on Mar 23, 2016 |
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Mar 23, 2016 21:56
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I've never ever felt unable to perform my gender because someone else had an unconventional one.
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Mar 23, 2016 21:57
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If it's all the same, seeing as it doesn't cost me anything I'd still rather not. It doesn't cost me anything to keep halal when around muslims, but I choose not to. It doesn't cost me anything to wish people "Merry Christmas" but I opt for "Happy Holidays". What other people believe is their business, I don't have to buy into it.
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Mar 23, 2016 22:05
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Frosted Flake posted:If it's all the same, seeing as it doesn't cost me anything I'd still rather not. Then you're an rear end in a top hat. Now the question is why you felt the need to make a bunch of posts arguing that it's cool and good to be an rear end in a top hat for no reason.
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Mar 23, 2016 22:10
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Frosted Flake posted:It doesn't cost me anything to wish people "Merry Christmas" but I opt for "Happy Holidays". I find it funny that you toss in the more "PC" option here in a list of examples about how you don't give a gently caress about respecting other's wishes. Or were you trying to be clever? Your entire argument boils down to "Sure, I could call that person what they ask, but  "
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Mar 23, 2016 22:11
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People wish "Merry Christmas" as a way of expressing their internal religious beliefs. I don't share the belief so I opt out of participating. People have their own invented identity, as is their right but I can choose not to indulge them as I don't share their belief. God is as real to the faithful as Genderfluidity is to it's adherents. If I'm in a conversation with someone and they say "Actually my pronouns are xe/xir" I'd just say 'Okay'. I'm not out to change their minds or be an rear end in a top hat, and in a first person conversation I'd only need the call them "you". I'm not interested in talking to a stranger about their gender or sexuality anyways. The fact that I don't believe they really are a "xe" doesn't matter. I think someone touched on this, when you meet a man or woman, gay or straight they don't put their identity on the forefront when you meet them.
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Mar 23, 2016 22:21
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Frosted Flake posted:I think someone touched on this, when you meet a man or woman, gay or straight they don't put their identity on the forefront when you meet them. Actually yes a lot of people do, you just don't notice because you've spent your entire life immersed in people projecting those identities.
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Mar 23, 2016 22:24
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Frosted Flake posted:People wish "Merry Christmas" as a way of expressing their internal religious beliefs. I don't share the belief so I opt out of participating. People have their own invented identity, as is their right but I can choose not to indulge them as I don't share their belief. God is as real to the faithful as Genderfluidity is to it's adherents. Actually, anyone who doesn't dress and make themselves up completely androgynously is putting their gender identity on the forefront. Anyone who casually uses "wife/girlfriend" or "husband/boyfriend" is putting their sexual orientation on the forefront. Because these are normal and the alternatives are not, the next thing you'll do is deny any relationship between them. I find it interesting that it's only the veneer of politeness that prevents you from screaming at quiltbag teens about how crazy they are, and that you think this makes you look moral rather than cowardly.
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Mar 23, 2016 22:28
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Frosted Flake posted:People wish "Merry Christmas" as a way of expressing their internal religious beliefs. I don't share the belief so I opt out of participating. People have their own invented identity, as is their right but I can choose not to indulge them as I don't share their belief. God is as real to the faithful as Genderfluidity is to it's adherents. You seem to think that you have to actually believe in the legitimacy of non-standard pronouns and want to use them yourself in order to speak them aloud. I promise you that using "xe" will not make you genderqueer. So with that fear no longer gripping your heart of hearts, do you have any reason not to do it other than "I want to actively make other people's days worse just because"?
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Mar 23, 2016 22:29
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Frosted Flake posted:I think someone touched on this, when you meet a man or woman, gay or straight they don't put their identity on the forefront when you meet them. But they do, and we as a society highly expect them to. We're walking with a person, going to the bathroom, and they go into the same one despite us thinking they were the other gender, we treat them as wrong for failing to perform their gender correctly. And that's not necessarily right. The comparisons to race are interesting because it's really the same problem from an egalitarian standpoint. It shouldn't change how we treat people or generally be a concern what race people are any more than we're concerned with eye color. At the same time, outright performances of "blackness" are often treated very poorly, starting with the common hostility to AAVE. This is because just the same as women and men, we've divided a society into castes, and still have much of that baggage left. And getting rid of that is going to definitely be uncomfortable to those that are used to it. Basically, gender is socially constructed as is language. Humans have a natural desire and need to learn a language to communicate, but they don't have a natural desire to learn English. Especially the particular English of right now. Gender is a strong way in which we are taught to define and understand ourselves, but that doesn't mean the way we do it is the only way, the necessary way, or the right way.
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Mar 23, 2016 22:35
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To add my (caucasian male) 2¢, gender identities and segregation of the sexes seem to be superfluous societal inventions that would all be better off dropping entirely rather than build ever more complex arbitrary hierarchies upon. Equality from the bathroom all the way up to the boardroom! For the people attacking Frosted Flake for his/her/ofne#wo relatively level-headed counterpoints, you seem to be failing to recognize that the forcefulness with which you perceive your identities is just completely alien to some people. Of course, my perception is probably influenced by my only identity-adjusting acquaintance being someone still struggling with serious abuse in their childhood and the non-negligible consequences that has had on their mental health. 
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Mar 23, 2016 22:39
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