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It's more of a thorough shellacking of civility than just a veneer. It must be hard being a snowflake in a world that doesn't bend to your whim, but I'm not out to harm anyone. I'm respectfully and courteously treating them as kindly as I can without indulging in their beliefs. E: I get it it's hard being trans/genderqueer whatever. I'm not out to punish "weird queers" or whatever, I just think there are two genders generally. People who fall outside of that or go from one to the other are deserving of respect. I show that respect by not being a dick, and also using "they". Frosted Flake fucked around with this message at 22:46 on Mar 23, 2016 |
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Mar 23, 2016 22:39
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Cugel the Clever posted:To add my (caucasian male) 2¢, gender identities and segregation of the sexes seem to be superfluous societal inventions that would all be better off dropping entirely rather than build ever more complex arbitrary hierarchies upon. Equality from the bathroom all the way up to the boardroom! Enforcing how people can act and dress at the point of a gun is hideously evil. I will gladly take any and all of the slanderous figures people bring up as totally unreasonable over the totalitarian desires expressed in this thread. Calling transgenderism and gender deviance hierarchical is nonsensical. It's slander or stupidity, pick one.
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Mar 23, 2016 22:43
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Frosted Flake posted:It's more of a thorough shellacking of civility than just a veneer. It must be hard being a snowflake in a world that doesn't bend to your whim, but I'm not out to harm anyone. I'm respectfully and courteously treating them as kindly as I can without indulging in their beliefs. See, you're not actually being civil or respectful by squawking out "special snowflake! special snowflake!" like a meme-addled parrot. But even if you were, civility just means avoiding social consequences. You don't say what you really feel because you're afraid. Grow a spine.
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Mar 23, 2016 22:45
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Effectronica posted:See, you're not actually being civil or respectful by squawking out "special snowflake! special snowflake!" like a meme-addled parrot. But even if you were, civility just means avoiding social consequences. You don't say what you really feel because you're afraid. Grow a spine. So I should confront people publically over our different perceptions of self-identity? I'd rather live and let live. What's that line? It's not my job to educate them.
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Mar 23, 2016 22:48
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Frosted Flake posted:So I should confront people publically over our different perceptions of self-identity? I'd rather live and let live. You should admit you're a coward. Then you can decide whether you want to be courageous, since even though you're willing to let these people live, shining radical star that you are, you still take advantage of anonymity to safely say that you think they're all crazy, so it seems like this is at least mildly important to you. Or you could change your mind, or wallow in fear.
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Mar 23, 2016 22:53
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Frosted Flake posted:It's more of a thorough shellacking of civility than just a veneer. It must be hard being a snowflake in a world that doesn't bend to your whim, but I'm not out to harm anyone. I'm respectfully and courteously treating them as kindly as I can without indulging in their beliefs. You're not, though. Being a "respectful" prick isn't actually respectful or courteous. This is just "Hate the sin, love the sinner" garbage. If this were 50 years ago you'd be talking about how you refuse to call an interracial "husband and wife", oh but that you aren't out to harm anyone. You'd talk about how you'd say they were "together" and ask why that wasn't good enough. You'd be sharing anecdotes about how people who are attracted to different races are just so gosh darn mercurial. Word for word, note for note, it's the same arguments then and now. You literally pointed to "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" in all but name as a way society does and more grossly should work. Somehow you've yet to realize how lovely this makes you look. Edit: quote:E: I get it it's hard being trans/genderqueer whatever. Oh, gently caress you.
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Mar 23, 2016 22:55
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Effectronica posted:You should admit you're a coward. I'm glad it's so cut and dry. If I'm a coward for saying "They/Them" then it's fine by me. They occupy a radically different social sphere from me, I interact with them only in passing and for that level of interaction courtesy will do. They're not changing their minds, I'm a little more open with mine. I don't question their identity, they don't jump all over me for "toxic masculine heteronormativity" or the cause du jour. People in polite society sometimes disagree on personal opinions.
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Mar 23, 2016 23:03
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Frosted Flake posted:I'm glad it's so cut and dry. If I'm a coward for saying "They/Them" then it's fine by me. They occupy a radically different social sphere from me, I interact with them only in passing and for that level of interaction courtesy will do. They're not changing their minds, I'm a little more open with mine. I don't question their identity, they don't jump all over me for "toxic masculine heteronormativity" or the cause du jour. Hey, bucko- people who aren't cowering and quaking at the thought that someone might be a bit miffed at them generally are able to cope with other people's opinions because they don't assume the other person is insane for having them. You do make this assumption, which is part of why your liver is lily in color.
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Mar 23, 2016 23:07
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Commie NedFlanders posted:One of the basic constitutive features of gender is that it's imposed on individuals from the outside world, this argument seems to be an argument against th very idea of gender altogether The origin of gender was for the sake of division of labor. The woman jobs in hunter-gatherer tribes were the ones that could be done while holding a baby so that they were never interrupted. Now that we have other ways of holding babies and procreating and so forth, genders no longer determine jobs and their social role is more vestigial and mostly relegated to sex (we've also managed to separate sex from its original role, or are trying to, Texas). Cultures that faced a decline in megafauna also saw an increase in the value of the woman job, and so there was more motivation to have a way for men to become women. One way, IIRC, was that during a rite of passage coming-of-age ritual type thing, they put the kid on a vision quest where they're supposed to see either a woven basket or a bow and arrow, and the one they choose determines their job aka gender. I'm seeing a lot of "is (so far), therefore ought" going on here. It used to be people who didn't want to go with the gender their crotch gave them could only cross dress and try to perform it as best they could, and passing was difficult. Most people, I believe, would . Now people who can afford it (I think it should be covered by medicare for all) can get sex reassignment surgery after a long process of social transition, hormone therapy, and counseling. That's really neat, I think, and makes the futuretopia we live in more fun and novel (sorry if this comes off as treating trans people like mere spectacles, I just mean there are multiple angles for why transsexuality should be seen as innocuous). Like, even if there weren't a medical consensus on gender dysphoria, I'd still be for letting anyone have reassignment surgery. If you perform woman gender, woman bathroom. If you perform man gender, man bathroom. If you perform androgyny (and I think calling that "third gender" is misleading because it's still predicated on a binary spectrum), then just do whatever is least likely to weird everyone out, or maybe you found the secret middle road that lets you go in both bathrooms without anyone being surprised. I think people often forget that the bell curves of "men" and "women" for any given trait have a ton of overlap, so that 'neither' is also 'both.' Very auspicious. Ethnic identities do not determine social roles (such as jobs), or where they do, we consider that inappropriate (e.g. it shouldn't be that landscaping is considered a "Mexican job" in America).
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Mar 23, 2016 23:07
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Frosted Flake posted:They're not changing their minds, I'm a little more open with mine. So open you refuse to acknowledge what they say as legitimate in any way, shape, or form. So open minded you instantly dismiss them and what they say as worthless without a single second of thought or consideration for their position or arguments. Yeah, you're the poster child for open mindedness all right what with denying the opposition from the outset and all.
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Mar 23, 2016 23:12
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Stinky_Pete posted:The origin of gender was for the sake of division of labor. The woman jobs in hunter-gatherer tribes were the ones that could be done while holding a baby so that they were never interrupted. Now that we have other ways of holding babies and procreating and so forth, genders no longer determine jobs and their social role is more vestigial and mostly relegated to sex (we've also managed to separate sex from its original role, or are trying to, Texas). Cultures that faced a decline in megafauna also saw an increase in the value of the woman job, and so there was more motivation to have a way for men to become women. One way, IIRC, was that during a rite of passage coming-of-age ritual type thing, they put the kid on a vision quest where they're supposed to see either a woven basket or a bow and arrow, and the one they choose determines their job aka gender.  Get hosed.
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Mar 23, 2016 23:16
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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WampaLord posted:"Sure, I could call that person what they ask, but This is a perfectly reasonable response. Making other people invest  in your own dumb poo poo does, in fact, make you the bigger rear end in a top hat.
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Mar 23, 2016 23:17
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blowfish posted:This is a perfectly reasonable response. Making other people invest It takes effort not to run down pedestrians crossing the road. Clearly, whoever walks is a bigger rear end in a top hat than the person who murders them with their car.
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Mar 23, 2016 23:18
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The guy comes in supporting the triumphalist, end of history view you guys are spouting, adds socio-historical context and gets this: blowfish posted:
Effectronica posted:It takes effort not to run down pedestrians crossing the road. Clearly, whoever walks is a bigger rear end in a top hat than the person who murders them with their car. Jaywalking is still a crime and pedestrians can be found at fault for collisions. It's your metaphor, make of that what you will.
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Mar 23, 2016 23:19
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Effectronica posted:It takes effort not to run down pedestrians crossing the road. Clearly, whoever walks is a bigger rear end in a top hat than the person who murders them with their car. Murdered pedestrians and mildly hurt feelings: literally the same thing. Frosted Flake posted:The guy comes in supporting the triumphalist, end of history view you guys are spouting, adds socio-historical context and gets this: are always bad, no matter whose opinions they are supposed to support 
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Mar 23, 2016 23:21
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blowfish posted:This is a perfectly reasonable response. Making other people invest Saying a word takes no effort, and no one is holding a gun to your head forcing you to say it. Soooo... ok?
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Mar 23, 2016 23:22
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blowfish posted:Murdered pedestrians and mildly hurt feelings: literally the same thing. You seem to think your hurt feelings over saying a word you aren't quite used to sure is.
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Mar 23, 2016 23:22
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blowfish posted:Murdered pedestrians and mildly hurt feelings: literally the same thing. Disrespecting people's gender identities can result in suicide. Trans people, including nonbinary people, have reduced life expectancy because of things like this. It's more than "mildly hurt feelings" and to conflate it to such is incredibly disingenuous.
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Mar 23, 2016 23:25
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Frosted Flake posted:The guy comes in supporting the triumphalist, end of history view you guys are spouting, adds socio-historical context and gets this: Why do you post these word salads where you take things you've heard about from someone of average intelligence (thus at least twice as smart as you) and throw them into a big bowl and dress 'em with Thousand Smugness dressing? Anyways, I'm glad you decided to come down firmly in favor of hit-and-runs, maintaining your moral batting average.
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Mar 23, 2016 23:25
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blowfish posted:Murdered pedestrians and mildly hurt feelings: literally the same thing. does not mean acknowledging the biological basis for our definitions of gender, just as we'd be mistaken to not acknowledge the phenotypical definitions that served as definitions of race. It means looking at those through lovely evolutionary psychology and assuming that it's hard law that only fools buck.
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Mar 23, 2016 23:27
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blowfish posted:
What!? Pete, in context, made a good post. Maybe with some shaky but interesting historical footing, but pointed in the right direction and very positive. Don't be a shithead.
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Mar 23, 2016 23:28
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blowfish posted:Murdered pedestrians and mildly hurt feelings: literally the same thing. Blowfish, I know that you are of Deutscher persuasion and so unburdened by analytical thinking, but you see, the reasoning, the chain of logic, you use or plagiarized, when we apply it generally, it falls apart completely. So it is useless.
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Mar 23, 2016 23:28
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Frosted Flake posted:I'm glad it's so cut and dry. If I'm a coward for saying "They/Them" then it's fine by me. They occupy a radically different social sphere from me, I interact with them only in passing and for that level of interaction courtesy will do. They're not changing their minds, I'm a little more open with mine. I don't question their identity, they don't jump all over me for "toxic masculine heteronormativity" or the cause du jour. You say that you don't question their identity, but all you've been doing in this thread is questioning nonbinary identities and sometimes mocking binary trans identities. You've called nonbinary identities, something that has existed in culture since the dawn of humanity, something for "special snowflakes," you've had nothing but a derogatory and negative tone in reference to the concept of people being nonbinary, and have created multiple strawmen of fake, ridiculous pronouns just so you could knock them down as some slippery slope where will it end?! argument. You very clearly aren't open minded toward the subject, it's obviously not "fine by you," and you're directly questioning that identity.
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Mar 23, 2016 23:29
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Like knowing that those with vaginae have completely different health concerns is important, as is realizing that the most common prescription for asthma doesn't work for most black people.
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Mar 23, 2016 23:30
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It is possible to acknowledge that biological distinctions exist and also that they have probably contributed to historical division of people into social classes while also saying that this does not at all need to be the case and is absolutely something we should be moving past as an industrialized society.
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Mar 23, 2016 23:33
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Atasnaya Vaflja posted:You say that you don't question their identity, but all you've been doing in this thread is questioning nonbinary identities and sometimes mocking binary trans identities. You've called nonbinary identities, something that has existed in culture since the dawn of humanity, something for "special snowflakes," you've had nothing but a derogatory and negative tone in reference to the concept of people being nonbinary, and have created multiple strawmen of fake, ridiculous pronouns just so you could knock them down as some slippery slope where will it end?! argument. Well, I'd say that no, he doesn't question their gender identity. In that he has already made up his mind and is not in any way interested in asking questions or learning about it.
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Mar 23, 2016 23:33
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Atasnaya Vaflja posted:Disrespecting people's gender identities can result in suicide. Trans people, including nonbinary people, have reduced life expectancy because of things like this. It's more than "mildly hurt feelings" and to conflate it to such is incredibly disingenuous. Well then something got messed up during these peoples' socialisation because if "oh no I got mistaken for the wrong
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Mar 23, 2016 23:35
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blowfish posted:Murdered pedestrians and mildly hurt feelings: literally the same thing. I was actually spitting the opposite of You see, when I was a freshman in college, I was adamant that gender was a fundamental aspect of a person's biology, driven by hormones. Then I went and learned about how gender was constructed, and was reminded in the context of the issue that there are intersex people, which helped me not think of sexual dimorphism as a hard-and-fast set-in-stone Natural Law, and that was how I realized that people should, indeed, be allowed to determine their own gender roles. I shared the path I took in the hope that someone in the far-too-reductionist position I held back then, would see the limits of their own Sorry if it wasn't clear—I did have difficulty organizing the post in a satisfactory order. Stinky_Pete fucked around with this message at 23:38 on Mar 23, 2016 |
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Mar 23, 2016 23:35
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blowfish posted:Well then something got messed up during these peoples' socialisation because if "oh no I got mistaken for the wrong See: most 13-year-old males
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Mar 23, 2016 23:38
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blowfish posted:Well then something got messed up during these peoples' socialisation because if "oh no I got mistaken for the wrong So this is the "trans people are broken, why can't they just get over it" narrative in play now. The problem isn't in socialization or with trans people's identities. The problem is in society repeatedly abusing us and making us believe we're broken, i.e. posts like these. When trans people are made to believe that they're inherently broken just because of their gender identity, yes, we begin to internalize that and become a vulnerable part of society.
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Mar 23, 2016 23:38
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blowfish posted:Well then something got messed up during these peoples' socialisation because if "oh no I got mistaken for the wrong It's not the single instance. It's doing that daily. From everyone. And being chided if you complain. Being told you're wrong or insane (as you're doing now). From everyone. Daily. Being treated as if you're a sexual predator or a fetish. From everyone. Daily. Privilege is best understood as being able to not care about that poo poo, because no one ever questions or, and those that do so are considered crazy or being silly.
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Mar 23, 2016 23:39
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Trans people are what 0.05% of the population? 'Non-binary' people less than that? Short of sharing classes, attending LGBT events, or being introduced through mutual friends, I will never encounter a person like that in more than passing. I don't worry about the gender of my barista or barber, I make smalltalk, tip and go about my day. I don't buy into all of it, I'm as polite as I need to be, and we all live our lives oblivious to the existence and views of the others except for fleeing moments where we trivially cross paths. You know how people complain about bros talking about crossfit or veganism in every conversation? That's how I feel about this. Good for them, none for me please, nice meeting you, have a nice day.
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Mar 23, 2016 23:40
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Atasnaya Vaflja posted:So this is the "trans people are broken, why can't they just get over it" narrative in play now. No I don't give a poo poo about whether you (used to) have a penis but see yourself as a woman or vice versa, you shouldn't view everything through the lens of your victim complex (which may be the underlying issue here  )
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Mar 23, 2016 23:41
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Somebody snickering about how only a total pussy would kill themselves is mentally incapable of treating other people decently, though it is valiant to try to educate them.
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Mar 23, 2016 23:41
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Effectronica posted:Somebody snickering about how only a total pussy would kill themselves is mentally incapable of treating other people decently, though it is valiant to try to educate them. nice strawman
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Mar 23, 2016 23:42
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blowfish posted:nice strawman That is what you said stripped of all the ornamentation. Just a gorgeous revelation of your failure to achieve basic humanity.
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Mar 23, 2016 23:44
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blowfish posted:nice strawman It's not a strawman when it's exactly what you're saying. blowfish posted:No I don't give a poo poo about whether you (used to) have a penis but see yourself as a woman or vice versa, you shouldn't view everything through the lens of your victim complex (which may be the underlying issue here It's not a "victim complex," it's a statistical certainty. Trans people lead shorter lives that are most often punctuated and ended with suicide attempts because of societal abuse.
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Mar 23, 2016 23:44
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Frosted Flake posted:Trans people are what 0.05% of the population? 'Non-binary' people less than that? Short of sharing classes, attending LGBT events, or being introduced through mutual friends, I will never encounter a person like that in more than passing. I don't worry about the gender of my barista or barber, I make smalltalk, tip and go about my day. We get it, you don't care about the lives of people who aren't you, especially not those of the LGBT communitty. You don't need to keep coming in here telling us how much you think the queer community are just a bunch of mentally addled weirdos. Message received loud and clear, brosef.
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Mar 23, 2016 23:48
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double post somehow
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Mar 23, 2016 23:48
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"0.05% of the population" and "(used to) have a penis but see yourself as a woman)" give some incredible insight into how transphobic and out of touch Frosted Flake and blowfish both are and frame both of their arguments very well. Frosted Flake thinks there's at least 100x less trans people than there actually are for some reason and they will never encounter one in their life. blowfish is focused very intently on sex organs being the important part of a person's identity, blowing off how people actually identify.
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Mar 23, 2016 23:51
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