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Majorian posted:As did the Netherlands. Given the fact that Turkey has been known to charge people with terrorism for publishing Chomsky, it's hard for me to blame both governments with treating the Turkish assessment of Bakraoui with a grain of salt. Turkey may have turned out to be correct, but that was only after crying wolf for years. Nobody gets arrested for being a "foreign fighter" because there's a Chomsky book in their luggage though. I think you need to know the exact specifics of why Turkey flagged that specific individual and why Belgium ignored that specific warning before you can comment on it. I'm sure that will all come out shortly. The bottom line is that you can't handwave away every single instance of Turkey flagging an individual as a potential ISIS recruit because given Turkey's role as the main rallying hub of foreign fighters, they're bound to be right at least sometimes. Sure you have to take the repressive state of Turkey into mind, but at the same time, if western nations were basically ignoring all Turkey's warnings about potential terrorists because Turkey, that's flawed, and there's bound to be some actual shitheads slipping through the cracks.
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Mar 24, 2016 01:04
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Baxta posted:All of your posts and opinions are as far left as you can get. Do you even realise that your suggestions and opinions are so far from center that it makes you no better than the far right racists? Amazing, that you evaluate things based on whether you perceive them to be radical or not, rather than on what they actually entail. Do you do this to keep your brain from overheating?
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Mar 24, 2016 01:07
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Effectronica posted:Amazing, that you evaluate things based on whether you perceive them to be radical or not, rather than on what they actually entail. Do you do this to keep your brain from overheating? Expecting a society to fundamentally change its culture to accommodate a migrant minority is not only radical but stupid. Europe has provided safe haven for those from war stricken countries. Why is it also expected to modify its systems to make sure people with little education or drive succeed in life? There are already government support programs with entitlements. Exactly how far should a country go?
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Mar 24, 2016 01:21
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 An alternative explanation for why Muslims can't integrate
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Mar 24, 2016 01:23
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Baxta posted:Expecting a society to fundamentally change its culture to accommodate a migrant minority is not only radical but stupid. Europe has provided safe haven for those from war stricken countries. Why is it also expected to modify its systems to make sure people with little education or drive succeed in life? There are already government support programs with entitlements. Exactly how far should a country go? Nice job dodging the question to puke out racist propaganda. Did you learn that one from Mormon missionaries, or come up with it yourself? Anyways, your cultures have already been fundamentally changed. The only way to be smart is to burn down all doner stands and fine kebab-eaters. That's the way to keep Europe pure and pristine.
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Mar 24, 2016 01:23
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Effectronica posted:Nice job dodging the question to puke out racist propaganda. Did you learn that one from Mormon missionaries, or come up with it yourself? The question was "Do you do this to keep your brain from over-heating?" Not really sure how to answer that. I was a european immigrant. I learned the language of the country I moved to. Twice. I didn't get government support. I found work. I look Turkish apparently and speak German and Spanish with a funny accent. I have no idea where you are getting mormon missionaries from. Why are people making excuses for a minority of crazy terrorists who think the only way to deal with their lovely life is to destroy the lives of others?
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Mar 24, 2016 01:33
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Majorian posted:But there's a difference between Westernizing Islam on Muslims' own terms, and Westernizing Islam on someone like Sam Harris' terms, don't you think? Right now, the message that a lot of Western Europeans is, "You can't be 'one of us' (French, Belgian, Dutch, German, etc) unless you fundamentally change important, essential things about yourself and your culture." That's not a very good way to make an out-group feel like it has a stake in society, especially when you're telling them that they can't even do relatively harmless things like wear a hijab. (and yes, I understand that that's France's bucket of poo poo, not Belgium's) The problem isn't that it's a bad way to make an out-group feel like it has a stake in society, the problem is they let those out-groups in without making it crystal clear what was required of them, and what they would have to give up. Western policymakers need to stop deluding themselves into thinking they (or their citizens) were ever going to accept Islam on its own terms. It has never happened and it will never happen.
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Mar 24, 2016 01:36
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Chomskyan posted:
Which countries? I think the lion's share of blame falls on Europe, but this could be reactive and in the East.
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Mar 24, 2016 01:37
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Baxta posted:Why are people making excuses for a minority of crazy terrorists who think the only way to deal with their lovely life is to destroy the lives of others? Because they subscribe to a world-view in which marginalization is never acceptable when it is of an out-power group, no matter how detestable nor deserving of marginalization certain practices, such as sexism within the migrant community, may be.
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Mar 24, 2016 01:41
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Baxta posted:The question was "Do you do this to keep your brain from over-heating?" Not really sure how to answer that. I hope you're excluded from retirement and public healthcare, since you're so proud of not getting "government support."
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Mar 24, 2016 01:42
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Effectronica posted:I hope you're excluded from retirement and public healthcare, since you're so proud of not getting "government support." I paid tax so I got the normal sozialversicherung that everyone gets. The main thing I did was not expect everything would be handed to me and things would be the same as my home country. I'm guessing you haven't moved to another country. Things are different. They wont adapt to you nor should they be expected to.
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Mar 24, 2016 01:48
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Baxta posted:I paid tax so I got the normal sozialversicherung that everyone gets. So why, exactly, do you think that you believe that all these people think and act alike? What justification do you have for your fetid ideology?
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Mar 24, 2016 01:50
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Volkerball posted:Nobody gets arrested for being a "foreign fighter" because there's a Chomsky book in their luggage though. Well, you say that, but... Luckily, the publisher got acquitted, but it's the sort of thing that brings Turkey's credibility on the issue into question. quote:I think you need to know the exact specifics of why Turkey flagged that specific individual and why Belgium ignored that specific warning before you can comment on it. I'm sure that will all come out shortly. The bottom line is that you can't handwave away every single instance of Turkey flagging an individual as a potential ISIS recruit because given Turkey's role as the main rallying hub of foreign fighters, they're bound to be right at least sometimes. Sure you have to take the repressive state of Turkey into mind, but at the same time, if western nations were basically ignoring all Turkey's warnings about potential terrorists because Turkey, that's flawed, and there's bound to be some actual shitheads slipping through the cracks. I'm guessing they weren't ignoring Turkey's warnings, so much as that they get warnings from Turkey all the time, and some are more credible than others. In this instance, they simply didn't have the evidence needed to make a case and prosecute him. the trump tutelage posted:I would need some elaboration on what "on a Muslims' own terms" means, frankly. Stuff like not banning the hijab, for starters, as well as ending employment discrimination, housing discrimination, that sort of stuff. Things that we try our best to stop from happening in the U.S., and fail, but at least we try. quote:The problem isn't that it's a bad way to make an out-group feel like it has a stake in society, the problem is they let those out-groups in without making it crystal clear what was required of them, and what they would have to give up. What kinds of things, do you think, they should be reasonably expected to give up? What things do Muslim immigrants in Western Europe refuse to give up, that they should give up? quote:Western policymakers need to stop deluding themselves into thinking they (or their citizens) were ever going to accept Islam on its own terms. It has never happened and it will never happen. It's worked in the U.S. It's kind of insane for you to say that it could never work in Western Europe.
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Mar 24, 2016 01:50
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Baxta posted:
Actually the country should change every aspect of its society to welcome foreigners and make sure they don't feel excluded.
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Mar 24, 2016 01:53
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The actual, literal definition of "integration" as distinguished from "assimilation" is that the cultures of migrants and natives come together. Personally, I am glad that Chinese-American food exists and people in America celebrate Eid and Yom Kippur. I believe that even though it was a long, long battle to get these to the point of being accepted, doing so makes the US of A indefinitely greater and richer than all the Europeans who believe that everyone should be made to choke down their sausage if they end up setting foot on their land.
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Mar 24, 2016 01:56
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Effectronica posted:So why, exactly, do you think that you believe that all these people think and act alike? What justification do you have for your fetid ideology? They should act alike because if they don't, they will have miserable lives and feel excluded. Not sure what you want. Lets have a look at the U.S. (not sure where you're from). How successful should an uneducated non english speaker expect to be? If they aren't successful is that the government's fault? Should anyone traveling to any country expect to be successful with minimal effort to integrate into said country or is it all the fault of the host country?
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Mar 24, 2016 02:00
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Baxta posted:They should act alike because if they don't, they will have miserable lives and feel excluded. I am asking why you believe in this plague of people who are not actually people, but are subhumans who just whine and beg for handouts. Did you get it from the nice people at the AfD?
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Mar 24, 2016 02:06
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Baxta posted:They should act alike because if they don't, they will have miserable lives and feel excluded. Yikes - that doesn't sound like a very reasonable expectation for a society, especially a 21st-century inclusive one that one would presumably find in Europe. More to the point, though, that's also a great recipe for alienated minorities to radicalize. quote:Not sure what you want. Lets have a look at the U.S. (not sure where you're from). How successful should an uneducated non english speaker expect to be? If they aren't successful is that the government's fault? The U.S. doesn't tend to insist that people from different countries and cultural identities give up their most valued traditions, particularly if those traditions are harmless. quote:Should anyone traveling to any country expect to be successful with minimal effort to integrate into said country or is it all the fault of the host country? I love how you're trying to make it seem like a given that anyone's arguing for this, or that Muslims generally don't try to integrate.
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Mar 24, 2016 02:12
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https://twitter.com/mickmcavoy/status/712578536381554689/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
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Mar 24, 2016 02:21
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Effectronica posted:I am asking why you believe in this plague of people who are not actually people, but are subhumans who just whine and beg for handouts. Did you get it from the nice people at the AfD? Didn't say that. Majorian posted:Yikes - that doesn't sound like a very reasonable expectation for a society, especially a 21st-century inclusive one that one would presumably find in Europe. More to the point, though, that's also a great recipe for alienated minorities to radicalize. Thats how it works in every culture in the world. Fit in with the majority or you will be a minority. Majorian posted:The U.S. doesn't tend to insist that people from different countries and cultural identities give up their most valued traditions, particularly if those traditions are harmless. They expect that immigrants learn the language, educate themselves and fit in with the majority. The traditions of current refugees are all different and the harmless ones have no impact. Immigrants no matter what background have to learn the local culture and language or be ostracised. Thats true for everywhere including the home countries of immigrants. Majorian posted:I love how you're trying to make it seem like a given that anyone's arguing for this, or that Muslims generally don't try to integrate. You are arguing for this by putting laying the blame of radical terrorism at the feet of the societies who have given them haven and opportunity.
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Mar 24, 2016 02:23
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The US has no official language, signs in two to eight different languages in stores, and official forms in over a hundred. Granted, many people, European in spirit, hate this state of affairs with all their heart, and I dearly wish you and them could all live together.
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Mar 24, 2016 02:29
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Effectronica posted:The US has no official language, signs in two to eight different languages in stores, and official forms in over a hundred. Granted, many people, European in spirit, hate this state of affairs with all their heart, and I dearly wish you and them could all live together. I suggest that you visit a couple of other countries to better understand what other cultures are like. Australia (my home country) is similar in that you can use all those languages in similar capacities however if you don't speak English, you won't be able to communicate with the majority which will leave you alienated and disadvantaged. Communication is extremely important.
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Mar 24, 2016 02:34
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https://twitter.com/MatthewDoyle31/status/712615148410773505?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
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Mar 24, 2016 02:37
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Baxta posted:Thats how it works in every culture in the world. Fit in with the majority or you will be a minority. They're always going to be a minority if they're Muslims. If you believe in Western values like egalitarianism, though, you'll support making it so that their minority status doesn't deny them jobs and equal treatment from most of society. quote:They expect that immigrants learn the language, educate themselves and fit in with the majority. The traditions of current refugees are all different and the harmless ones have no impact. Immigrants no matter what background have to learn the local culture and language or be ostracised. Thats true for everywhere including the home countries of immigrants. They do learn the language, educate themselves, and try to fit in. And they're still treated like second-class citizens. What part are you not getting about this?  quote:You are arguing for this by putting laying the blame of radical terrorism at the feet of the societies who have given them haven and opportunity. You're an idiot if you think I'm blaming Belgium for the atrocity that was committed against it. Shame on you.
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Mar 24, 2016 03:06
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Baxta posted:How successful should an uneducated non english speaker expect to be? If they aren't successful is that the government's fault? Why is it you are writing off all refugees as lazy welfare queens who want to come sit in Europe for free while having everything handed to them? A lot of refugees are educated, and it's not that hard to learn a language when you're immersed in it. While those people do face a larger struggle than a native would, their children are still going to schools in the host nation, and getting themselves on par with any other child in the country. So this problem only exists for one generation. You're coming off as awfully bigoted.
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Mar 24, 2016 03:09
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Volkerball posted:Why is it you are writing off all refugees as lazy welfare queens who want to come sit in Europe for free while having everything handed to them? A lot of refugees are educated, and it's not that hard to learn a language when you're immersed in it. While those people do face a larger struggle than a native would, their children are still going to schools in the host nation, and getting themselves on par with any other child in the country. So this problem only exists for one generation. You're coming off as awfully bigoted. I didn't say they were lazy welfare queens. They were promised that they would have everything handed to them. I wasn't aware that was in dispute. They don't speak the languages of the host country and it can take years to learn a new language. The problem obviously exists for more than one generation as evidenced by the second gen terrorists. My argument is that Europe has provided safe haven and more support than most other societies. The radical leftists in this forum seem to be expecting more but my point is that there isn't any more to give.
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Mar 24, 2016 03:14
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Baxta posted:I didn't say they were lazy welfare queens. They were promised that they would have everything handed to them. I wasn't aware that was in dispute. They don't speak the languages of the host country and it can take years to learn a new language. Man what is this poo poo? Not being killed by a marauding partisan militia is 'having everything handed to you"? Are you comparing our society to the 30 Years War standards of human decency? Jesus.
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Mar 24, 2016 03:20
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Majorian posted:
The big one is "community (as opposed to individual) standards of sexual morality". They need to stop trying to enforce their cultural taboos ESPECIALLY where women are concerned. European women, immigrant women, white, black, doesn't matter - their say on other people's sexual choices end at their front door. Unsolicited public criticism on religious grounds is, and should be, extremely ill-regarded by a modern society. For that matter, they also need to give up the demand for cities and neighborhoods free of what they consider other forms of vice (liquor stores, etc). The other big one is proclaiming their loyalty to religious law over the democratic order. Anyone who says that they follow "the word of god" above the nation's laws should rightly be a social pariah and be excluded from opportunities. "Political beliefs that advocate the dismantling or undermining of secular laws" also falls under this umbrella as something they need to give up. Others: Arranged marriage (which is a form of rape, and it baffles me that most posters don't want to acknowledge this). The right of husbands to "physically discipline" (god that phrase makes my stomach churn) their wives. Burkas, niqabs, and any other bluntly patriarchal contrivances (if there was a christian sect that urged women to wear highly-visible chastity belts in public, they wouldn't be very well regarded either); note that I am not saying these clothes should be made illegal, but that the muslim immigrant community should be expected to gradually give them up. In the far future, when there hasn't been an honor killing or jihadist attack in decades, then burkas etc. can safely return as a fashion statement. But at the moment, they send much the same message as a man wearing a t-shirt that says "RAPE IS AWESOME" - not quite meeting the threshhold of illegality, but private property owners are well within their rights to deny you entry if you're wearing it. These are all things that muslim immigrants to Europe need to give up; some immediately, some can be allowed to gradually fade. But so far, there is little to suggest that the immigrants and refugees are even starting to abandon these, and that's a problem. If you consider these demands to be tantamount to "demanding they become brown Europeans", then yes, that is what they need to do if they rightly expect European society to accept them.
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Mar 24, 2016 03:25
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menino posted:Man what is this poo poo? Not being killed by a marauding partisan militia is 'having everything handed to you"? Are you comparing our society to the 30 Years War standards of human decency? Jesus. Yes thats exactly what I said. You should be taken seriously.
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Mar 24, 2016 03:40
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MysteriousStranger posted:ROFL Are you saying Tunisia doesn't exist as a nation and should have a dictator imposed on it?
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Mar 24, 2016 03:42
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Liberal_L33t posted:The big one is "community (as opposed to individual) standards of sexual morality". They need to stop trying to enforce their cultural taboos ESPECIALLY where women are concerned. European women, immigrant women, white, black, doesn't matter - their say on other people's sexual choices end at their front door. Unsolicited public criticism on religious grounds is, and should be, extremely ill-regarded by a modern society. For that matter, they also need to give up the demand for cities and neighborhoods free of what they consider other forms of vice (liquor stores, etc).  (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 24, 2016 03:45
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Baxta posted:I didn't say they were lazy welfare queens. They were promised that they would have everything handed to them. I wasn't aware that was in dispute. They don't speak the languages of the host country and it can take years to learn a new language. Who promised refugees they would have everything handed to them? As far as policy goes, the bigger issue imo is finding where radicalization occurs. Obviously we know it happens primarily through either social media or through militant imams preaching in the West. But when it comes to finding that specific location on social media or that specific imam, counterterrorism officials seem to struggle. That needs to be fixed, and those networks need to be snuffed out, transparently, and without hassling Muslims that have nothing to do with radical forms of Islam. That's more important to me than more social programs and things like that, since it's largely second gen immigrants who fall victim to it. You argue that Europe can't do any more, but you're missing the point. You can offer welfare, jobs programs, and the like all you want, but if the person then gets treated like poo poo by racists on the street on a daily basis, all that work can be negated. And those racist voices aren't a fringe segment. They're politically represented, as you can see by all the legislation in Europe recently about banning the hijab and things of that nature. So Europe has a major problem there that it needs to resolve, refugee influx or no. You could say a lot of people deal with racism around the world and don't become suicide bombers, and you'd be right. But the sad fact is that Muslim youths in that situation can be preyed upon by a unique cult. When you're dealing with real no poo poo racism in your life, and you have some guy in your ear telling you that these people all want to destroy Muslims and that's why ISIS fights, it can begin to make sense if you have no other influence in your life to counter it. So it's a two part solution. You ostracize bigotry against Muslims instead of legitimizing it, and you shut down the ability of predators to recruit among disenfranchised Muslim youths, and the problem will disappear. Volkerball fucked around with this message at 04:01 on Mar 24, 2016 |
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Mar 24, 2016 03:46
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Liberal_L33t posted:Burkas, niqabs, and any other bluntly patriarchal contrivances (if there was a christian sect that urged women to wear highly-visible chastity belts in public, they wouldn't be very well regarded either); note that I am not saying these clothes should be made illegal, but that the muslim immigrant community should be expected to gradually give them up. "Highly visible chastity belts" are a horrible analogy. It'd be more like telling Christian women that you guess it's ok if they want to wear a sweater with no cleavage since it conforms with their religious beliefs, but you do expect them to wear skimpier clothing at some point as part of the assimilation process. The hijab as a statement of modesty predates Islam. Volkerball fucked around with this message at 04:11 on Mar 24, 2016 |
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Mar 24, 2016 04:05
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Volkerball posted:Who promised refugees they would have everything handed to them? That may be a good way to deal with it but unfortunately its not realistic. I don't think Europe is any more or less racist than the rest of the world (could be wrong, not sure theres a reliable racism chart). Its not realistic to get the average joe to accept that while muslims kill his friends, its not THESE muslims, its just not going to happen. I don't think its true that they get treated like poo poo on a daily basis. People can't tell what religion you follow by looking at you. If you wear a full niqab then sure, people aren't going to accept you because we as humans evolved to communicate using facial expressions as well as language so then yes, people will encounter racism when covering their faces and that will not change in our lifetimes. Sure people should make more of an effort to be accepting but its a two way street. At the end of the day, Europe shouldn't have to accept anything it feels it doesn't want to. That's not Europe's job. I'm confused as to why people think it is. EDIT: I forgot to answer your question about having everything promised to them. Its heavily documented that people smugglers told them they would all get houses and a wonderful life etc. Those stupid rumors combined with Merkel's absolutely abysmal handling of this situation have lead to a very very false representation of what refugees would find when they got to Europe. It's pretty sad. Baxta fucked around with this message at 04:27 on Mar 24, 2016 |
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Mar 24, 2016 04:24
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Baxta posted:That may be a good way to deal with it but unfortunately its not realistic. I don't think Europe is any more or less racist than the rest of the world (could be wrong, not sure theres a reliable racism chart). Its not realistic to get the average joe to accept that while muslims kill his friends, its not THESE muslims, its just not going to happen. I wouldn't expect anyone who's personally been affected by terrorism to be able to take a step back and look at the situation from the third person either, but that's an extremely small group of people. For the vast majority of people, it's just another political issue in which the loss of human life is a factor. The same is true for debates based around healthcare, law enforcement, and many other things, depending on the county. Anyone with a modicum of human decency understands that the vast majority of Muslims aren't murderers, and that's not a hard thing to spread into the public conscience. Even if you'll never be able to do so fully, you can push it so far into the fringes that everyone understands that the racists are nothing more than blithering idiots. So Muslims and minorities in general understand that even if there are idiots out there, the country as a whole views them as equals. But that isn't happening in Europe. Just look at how the debate is framed in Europe compared to Canada, as an example. In all of Europe, the refugee crisis has been a huge debate. It's framed entirely around Very Serious issues like terrorism, the economy, destabilization. Anything but the suffering these people are fleeing. In Canada, it's almost the polar opposite. The result is that in Europe, you have huge anti-refugee rallies, and anti-refugee politicians urging racist legislation be passed. In Canada, people are jumping at the opportunity to welcome refugees and do something nice for them to show them that Canada can be home. Guess which one has problems with Muslims acting violently? quote:Its heavily documented that people smugglers told them they would all get houses and a wonderful life etc. Those stupid rumors combined with Merkel's absolutely abysmal handling of this situation have lead to a very very false representation of what refugees would find when they got to Europe. It's pretty sad. People smugglers also said that their methods were completely safe and no one could get hurt, and yet, refugees started calling them "death boats" way before anyone in Europe was even talking about refugees. Smugglers are not these peoples first exposure to stories about immigration to Europe, and they have a well-earned reputation of being liars. People are often sent back, and are waiting to attempt to get into Europe again, so if you are in a trafficking hub like coastal Libya or Turkey, you're likely to run into someone who's already been to Europe themselves. Also, people attempting to go to Europe from the Middle East and Africa has been around since long before the Arab Spring. Less so in Turkey, but Libya has been a major shipping port for human trafficking for a long time, mainly from African refugees fleeing Eritrea when it comes to Greece, and some other nations when it comes to people trying to cross from Morocco into Spain. And many of them are floating around in those border areas still, and share their stories from their firsthand experience with all the other people in the camp. And last of all, with the influx of refugees into these hubs, humanitarian activists and NGO's have followed to provide aid. Those people aren't giving refugees bad information. With all that, and from the interviews I've seen with refugees, I don't think having severe delusions about what awaits them in Europe, or how safe their travel will actually be, is a common problem. Which of course, just makes the situation that much sadder. They're going despite all that poo poo.
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Mar 24, 2016 05:17
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Volkerball posted:Just look at how the debate is framed in Europe compared to Canada, as an example. In all of Europe, the refugee crisis has been a huge debate. It's framed entirely around Very Serious issues like terrorism, the economy, destabilization. Anything but the suffering these people are fleeing. In Canada, it's almost the polar opposite. The result is that in Europe, you have huge anti-refugee rallies, and anti-refugee politicians urging racist legislation be passed. In Canada, people are jumping at the opportunity to welcome refugees and do something nice for them to show them that Canada can be home. Guess which one has problems with Muslims acting violently?
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Mar 24, 2016 06:18
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Panniculus Rift posted:Do you really think no one in Europe care about the suffering of the refugees? Do you really think there have been no pro-refugee rallies? You loving retards who have never been outside north america but keep talking about Europe like one monumental entity of hive mind racists are as dumb as people who say all muslims support terrorism. How many Syrian refugees came to Canada last year? 30-40? Of course not, and I didn't mean to imply that. Merkel's administrations efforts for one are probably the largest political attempt to extend a helping hand to people fleeing these conflicts of any country in the world. And of course I've seen the Refugees Welcome efforts and plenty of heart-warming things from Europe as well. But anti-refugee sentiment is certainly a lot more prominent there. I suppose it could be expected given that Europe's debate is more centered around "These people are coming here, what do we do about it?" rather than "should we maybe offer to let some of these people in," as well as the fact that Muslims are a lot more prominent as a minority sect in most European nations, but the fact remains.
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Mar 24, 2016 06:26
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If receiving casual racism effectively undermines any attempt at integration, because apparently Muslim migrants are special snowflakes without agency or responsibility to integrate until everything is perfect, then they should try integrating into any other non Muslim country, and see how far they get. They've been treated better than any other historical migrant group, hand wringing over unemployment, when they effectively live in self sustaining bubbles totally disconnected from the society around them, is the symptom of an insane mind. They have a responsibility to integrate, which they are not living up to, the failure is on their shoulders, and theirs alone. Edit: actually, on reflection, the blame also lies on the people assumimg integration just happens naturally, absent any actual guiding or incentive structure. Either way, shifting blaming onto the society that had and continues to welcome them is bullshit. rudatron fucked around with this message at 06:47 on Mar 24, 2016 |
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Mar 24, 2016 06:40
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rudatron posted:Edit: actually, on reflection, the blame also lies on the people assume integration just happens naturally, absent any actual guiding structure. Either way, shifting blaming onto the society that had and continues to welcome them is bullshit. quote:Yet 20 percent of respondents agreed with the following statement: “All immigrants, whether legal or illegal, from outside the European Union and their children, even those born here, should be sent back to their country of origin.”
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Mar 24, 2016 06:48
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| # ? Jun 6, 2024 16:26 |
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Compare those stats with how people in Thailand, China, Japan, India, etc. feel about that.
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Mar 24, 2016 06:52
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