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Baudolino posted:I think we`ll just have to deal with this being the new normal. We can`t make sure that every single European Muslim likes it here and feels welcome. We can`t keep them all away from Islamic orgs no more then we can keep all the white boys away from the Neo-nazis. It just can`t be done. Nor can we remove the muslim population, nor can we ever hire enough spies and destroy enough civil liberties to keep tabs on every single person that wants to kill innocents. We can not finance them or give them weapons and we can more effectively arrest and prosecute the ones who go to Syria and Iraq to fight. Both these problems have solutions to them for gently caress's sake! It's not "Welp I guess there is nothing to do" problem. It's a problem largely perpetuated by the European right-wing, either the financial part which wants us to stay with oil, the anti-environmentalist one which wants us to stay with oil and the anti-European integration one which yells at any unified European solution to anything, as well as the anti-Muslim one which attacks both people fleeing ISIS and native Muslims and thus plays right into ISIS's hand with its propaganda. Nobody in this thread cares about them though because they don't go to a mosque. They are the ones standing in our way of fixing this issue (or making it as dangerous as communist terrorists are these days anyway). Bombing ISIS is just bombing the symptoms that we ourselves enable. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 11:11 on Mar 24, 2016 |
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Mar 24, 2016 11:05
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GaussianCopula posted:You have to read the whole study, where they describe their methodology. It includes creating 3 CV, one secular, one obviously Christian and a Muslim one. The Muslim candidate had https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Relief in it, which is linked to Hamas.
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Mar 24, 2016 11:05
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DarkCrawler posted:And they don't because of mental problems, behavioral problems, criminality, etc. You realize that they aren't integrated in their own communities either? That they go against their parents and neighbors too? We are not talking about a significant number of people, we are talking about lunatics who have a readymade terrorist organization financed and armed by the West to join in because of our oil addiction. Also the youth often get initiated in prison, including the two brothers who blew themselves up in the Brussels, so it really is similar to the general process of how people get into gangs and the vicious spiral of crime. They need some opportunity to get socialised outside of a context where anti-social behaviour is the norm.
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Mar 24, 2016 11:09
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Chomskyan posted:Ah, I see. So employers saw that Islamic Relief was listed on the CV, traveled 4 years into the future, found there that Israel had accused the organization of having ties to terror, and on that basis did not invite the candidate to an interview You can find accusations going back as far as 2003 relatively quickly, but even if you couldn't, I would argue that the CV they created for the study does not accurately reflect your regular Muslim but instead represents someone who spend a lot of time with Islamic organizations, from which a recruiter will draw conclusions that might not be favorable for the applicant.
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Mar 24, 2016 11:34
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You don't get to cleanly isolate the European right while ignoring the Islamic right! If one is purely symptomatic, and therefore absolved of blame, them both of them are! Alternately, you accept that they are both guilty, and get loving serious about it!
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Mar 24, 2016 11:46
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GaussianCopula posted:someone who spend a lot of time with Islamic organizations, from which a recruiter will draw conclusions that might not be favorable for the applicant. This is exactly the problem we're talking about when it comes to employment discrimination. You're not even arguing that it doesn't exist, just that it's warranted because ~maybe they're terrorists.~ Muslims who are attempting to integrate into a workforce outside of their own communities will likely only have prior experience within Islamic businesses and organizations.
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Mar 24, 2016 11:57
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rudatron posted:You don't get to cleanly isolate the European right while ignoring the Islamic right! If one is purely symptomatic, and therefore absolved of blame, them both of them are! Alternately, you accept that they are both guilty, and get loving serious about it! I'm not ignoring the Islamic right genius, I'm saying we shouldn't give them money and guns and we should arrest our citizens if they fly over to work with the Islamic right or try to coordinate with them online and further European integration in order to combat radicalism more effectively continentwide! Wow that sure is ignoring it! I'm the only one serious about it, everyone else just wants to yell about Muslims when Islam or our relation to it doesn't have poo poo to do with solving the problem. All but a fraction of European muslims aren't interested in terrorism, the problem in regards to Islam is loving solved in Europe. Islam has no power in Europe. The European right does and they are actively working in furthering the goals of Wahhabist Muslim terrorism right here in their millions.
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Mar 24, 2016 12:03
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GaussianCopula posted:You can find accusations going back as far as 2003 relatively quickly, but even if you couldn't, I would argue that the CV they created for the study does not accurately reflect your regular Muslim but instead represents someone who spend a lot of time with Islamic organizations, from which a recruiter will draw conclusions that might not be favorable for the applicant. Studies like this have been done in the Netherlands as well, with the method being that employers were sent standardized CVs and application letters that were similar in all respect except for the name of the applicant. Here's a recent one that you won't read because it's in Dutch, which found that applicants with a recognizably Dutch name had 1.5 times higher chance to receive an invitation for an interview than Hindustani-Dutchmen, and 1.8 times higher than Moroccan-Dutchmen (no differences were found for gender or type of job, or for sector). Another study by the Dutch government found that older workers and workers with a migrant background were only half as likely to get an interview as native Dutchmen below 35. Or you can look at meta-analysis of 42 studies done in OECD countries, which "shows that discrimination against ethnic and racial minorities remains prevalent in the hiring process, despite the introduction of anti-discrimination legislation and demonstrate that there is no systematic association between the economic situation and discrimination". And obviously in Western Europe being a Muslim has a near-perfect correlation with having a minority ethnic background. Since these types of studies normally look at actually getting a chance at an interview, this means that it doesn't matter how individuals present themselves or how acculturated they are, or how Muslim they are. Because without an interview they never get a chance to demonstrate that in the first place. Labour market discrimination is real. Deal with it.
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Mar 24, 2016 12:14
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GaussianCopula posted:You can find accusations going back as far as 2003 relatively quickly, but even if you couldn't, I would argue that the CV they created for the study does not accurately reflect your regular Muslim but instead represents someone who spend a lot of time with Islamic organizations, from which a recruiter will draw conclusions that might not be favorable for the applicant. I know a dumbass like you wouldn't even let them in the door if their last name had "al-" in it, but most normal functioning people should instead say "hey, he's done volunteer work with a humanitarian NGO" instead of being like HOLY gently caress GET ME CORPORATE  HE'S A MUSLIM Seriously just lmao if you think "common sense" leads one to think employment with Islamic Relief implies you're a terrorist. You are the worst.
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Mar 24, 2016 12:17
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They have power in these migrant communities! That's the reality of the situation, it's why these suspects were able to hide so long, why they existed on the first place - because of a local power structure that shielded and created them. Pretending this is just the fault of Europe ignores that. We're taking about organizations, were talking about a wall of silence that protects these organizations, and a wider base of people sympathetic to their cause. Pull your head out of the sand, recognize that it's not just about those evil euros, who are actually statistically the least racist group of people worldwide, and recognize that were also dealing with ideology. Not religion, I'm not one who believes that religions can't westernize, or that Islam is by necessity anti-western, but we are talking political ideology.
rudatron fucked around with this message at 12:23 on Mar 24, 2016 |
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Mar 24, 2016 12:20
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My god, they've taken a white girl hostage.  This is the part where they rape her and then make her wear a burqa! Oh, I can't watch this.
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Mar 24, 2016 12:21
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rudatron posted:They have power in these migrant communities! That's the reality of the situation, it's why these suspects were able to hide so long, why they existed on the first place - because of a local power structure that shielded and created them. Pretending this is just the fault of Europe ignores that. We're taking about organizations, were talking about a wall of silence that protects these organizations, and a wider base of people sympathetic to their cause. Pull your head out of the sand, recognize that it's not just about those evil euros, who are actually statistically the least racist group of people worldwide, and recognize that were also dealing with ideology. Not religion, I'm not one who believes that religions can't westernize, or that Islam is by necessity anti-western, but we are talking political ideology. Yeah, it's absolutely clear that you don't know anything you are talking about. It's not that hard to rent a random apartment or ask an acquaintance if this guy he does not know can stay here for hours. Moreover these people were part of organized crime (or petty crime) long before they became Wahhabists, and to my experience if you move in criminal circles you can always find someone to hold your poo poo or a place to lay low for a while. You think in a neighborhood with literal thousands of Middle-Eastern looking men a random passerby is at fault if he doesn't recognize someone? You think you're not able to hide in a place with unemployment, poverty, drug issues (and where you possibly grew up) without some sort of community-wide conspiracy being involved? You don't think there are other criminals in hiding right this moment who are being sought by authorities? Nobody else is at fault then at most a dozen people who hid these guys - and in many cases they were probably hid in unused apartments or with people who didn't know who they are. There is no European-born power structure that "created and shielded these people" there never has been. They're not given these teachings at home, by their friends in a school, at their job or in a mosque. These guys are rejected by (or reject) their own community and their country long before they even find radical Islam, then they become co-opted by a Western-financed terrorist organization BASED IN MIDDLE EAST. This organization then ships them TO THE MIDDLE EAST where they are trained and further radicalized, then they get back to Europe where the EUROPEAN authorities apparently don't give a flying gently caress about them. They're our citizens, the organization that radicalizes and gives them means to carry out attacks is financed by us, and its our authorities that either don't bother or lack the capacity to apprehend these people until they do some serious damage. The Muslim community in Europe (a ridiculous idea in itself, it just means "all the Muslims in Europe") has nothing to do with solving the situation because they didn't cause it in the first place, no matter how much you yell that they do. Or to say, they have no other responsibilities then to demand the same things then any other European should if they actually want to solve this situation - European security integration, end of oil. I'd add end of giving ISIS all the "Westerners hate Muslims, see!" propaganda to that too but I know some people will continue to whine about Muslims through the end of time, this is Europe after all. The insidious Arab has just replaced the Turk. Either way if you solve the two other issues whining about Muslims doesn't really matter. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 13:03 on Mar 24, 2016 |
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Mar 24, 2016 12:40
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They got radicalized in belgium prisons, not in the middle east, that means the radicalization groups are local. So that disproves the idea that they don't exist. And it absolutely is hard to simply rent a place if your the subject of a loving manhunt. Like criminal groups aren't detached from the society they operate in, rolling around in some kind of frictionless vacuum, it's a network of partial-legality that enables them. Now add in the fact that we're not just dealing with a criminal group, but an ideological group, that recruits from a small community, and suddenly poo poo just got a lot more complicated! These groups are being hidden & protected by these communities, there's no other way they could exist. No the individual muslims in europe didn't cause it, any more than you could expect any random person to cause anything beyond their job (and maybe their consumer choices). But this problem exists, it's not going to solve itself, and the issue is more than just employment. It's ideology, it's organizations, it's politics. It must be dealt with head on. Like, it's funny, when we have people like Brevik doing horrible things, it brings up a real discussion about radical militia groups, and that's the right one to have I think. We acknowledge that the crime is political in nature, that it depends on a base of both propagandist support and encouragement, and that there's no excuse. On the other hand, this is one of the posts on the first page of this thread: Volkerball posted:Speculation, but something to keep in mind. rudatron fucked around with this message at 14:10 on Mar 24, 2016 |
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Mar 24, 2016 13:58
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rudatron posted:They got radicalized in belgium prisons, not in the middle east, that means the radicalization groups are local. They get radicalized in prisons and on the street, but that doesn't stop the majority of the people doing the initial radicalization from not being local, from foreign prisoners to recruiters sent to the fact that a lot of this thing is conducted online. rudatron posted:So that disproves the idea that they don't exist. And it absolutely is hard to simply rent a place if your the subject of a loving manhunt. For you, not for someone who knows you. And if you think some poverty-ridden inner city place doesn't have a thousand places you can stay for a few days without any official kind of deal in exchange for cash, you're kidding yourself. rudatron posted:Like criminal groups aren't detached from the society they operate in, rolling around in some kind of frictionless vacuum, it's a network of partial-legality that enables them. Most criminal groups are native to their countries of origin. This one is not and is spread and financed by non-locals, with the Europeans being just a tiny branch of expendable pawns. rudatron posted:Now add in the fact that we're not just dealing with a criminal group, but an ideological group, that recruits from a small community, and suddenly poo poo just got a lot more complicated! Yes, a small community where they get less then a percentage of people to join them. poo poo isn't complicated at all, we actually have pretty good understanding of who these people are and how they get where they are and throughout this thread you have been provided with multiple links and explanations to educate yourself. The fact that you intentionally ignore it does not mean that it is not real. rudatron posted:These groups are being hidden & protected by these communities, there's no other way they could exist. That's a complete fabrication of your own based on nothing. They aren't doing anything illegal. Neo-nazis recruit people too without being hidden and protected by their communities, because our laws allow that. Nowadays most of the recruiting is probably through internet which is infinitely more difficult to regulate. They start doing actual physical illegal stuff related to radical Islam only around the time they go to Middle East. rudatron posted:No the individual muslims in europe didn't cause it, any more than you could expect any random person to cause anything beyond their job (and maybe their consumer choices). But this problem exists, it's not going to solve itself, and the issue is more than just employment. It's ideology, it's organizations, it's politics. It must be dealt with head on. We know the ideology, the organizations and politics that keep Islamic fundamentalism operating, what we lack is the political will to change it, and that is due to European right wing groups of either the financial or the political bent. Muslims in Europe didn't cause it, period, except the individual criminals we need to persecute and convict far more efficiently. Muslims in the Middle East did, maybe we should stop giving them a shitload and shitload of money? rudatron posted:Like, it's funny, when we have people like Brevik doing horrible things, it brings up a real discussion about radical militia groups, and that's the right one to have I think. We acknowledge that the crime is political in nature, that it depends on a base of both propagandist support and encouragement, and that there's no excuse. What nobody is ever suggesting in those threads is to start raiding whatever Oslo neighborhood Breivik operated in, or demand the Christian Community of Europe to take action against him or any other Ideological Community that Breivik is tangentially connected to, because he is a lunatic. The difference between the Islamists and Breivik is that Breivik didn't have a massive billion dollar Western financed and protected violent ideological community to send his application to. Seriously, you do get that there are actual European-born full on white Christians who convert to Islam and go to Syria? Is the Muslim Community of Europe responsible for the wayward child of a middle-class French family that has been there since Charlemagne now too? DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 14:27 on Mar 24, 2016 |
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Mar 24, 2016 14:12
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It looks like they were targeting the nuclear power plant but changed plans when the paris guy got arrested. "The footage with “dozens of hours” of the movements of Belgium's nuclear boss was seized during an anti-terrorist raid in the apartment of another suspect belonging to the same terror cell, Mohammed Bakkali. According to investigators' information, obtained by Dernier Heure, the El Bakraoui brothers were the ones suspected of planting the cameras and were following the movements of the nuclear boss."
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Mar 24, 2016 15:33
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I'm not sure how you go from I can't get a job to I'm going to try to suicide bomb a nuclear plant.
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Mar 24, 2016 15:36
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shrike82 posted:I'm not sure how you go from I can't get a job to I'm going to try to suicide bomb a nuclear plant. The same way you go from I can't get a job I'm going to shoot up an random mall?
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Mar 24, 2016 15:37
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I don't see African-Americans shooting up random malls so...
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Mar 24, 2016 15:39
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DarkCrawler posted:The same way you go from I can't get a job I'm going to shoot up an random mall? These things are not the same.
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Mar 24, 2016 15:42
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MysteriousStranger posted:These things are not the same. They're not because there isn't a billion dollar network financed by us in Uganda or somewhere running a country and sponsoring spree shooters. shrike82 posted:I don't see African-Americans shooting up random malls so... Who said anything about African-Americans?
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Mar 24, 2016 15:49
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So not at all alike then
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Mar 24, 2016 15:50
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shrike82 posted:So not at all alike then Alike in the people that are doing it, but you seem to be completely fine with us paying for the training and arming one and not the other? Or do you want us paying for both? That seems weird.
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Mar 24, 2016 15:51
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Wait, you're saying that the Molenbeek terrorists were trained and armed by us?
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Mar 24, 2016 15:53
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shrike82 posted:Wait, you're saying that the Molenbeek terrorists were trained and armed by us? No, they were trained by the people we keep giving money and weapons to. Try to keep up, buddy.
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Mar 24, 2016 15:54
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Yeah, they're arabic terrorists - more reason to control immigration from the region
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Mar 24, 2016 15:55
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shrike82 posted:Yeah, they're arabic terrorists - more reason to control immigration from the region Actually they were all born in Europe. Have you been following the news? And people wouldn't be immigrating from the region if we didn't keep feeding money and weapons to the people who want to brutally murder them. Why do you want to fund Islamic fundamentalists, forums poster shrike82?
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Mar 24, 2016 15:57
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Nah, not really Europeans
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Mar 24, 2016 15:58
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Belgium should of deported them after their first prison sentences
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Mar 24, 2016 16:00
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They should have been sent back to Syria after Turkey handed them over with the warnings that they were terrorists.
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Mar 24, 2016 16:00
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shrike82 posted:Nah, not really Europeans Europeans by literally every definition of the term that matters. Are white people who murder countless people not really Europeans? Why do you want to fund Islamic fundamentalists?
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Mar 24, 2016 16:02
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shrike82 posted:Wait, you're saying that the Molenbeek terrorists were trained and armed by us? His whole point is that we're buying petroleum and natural gas, and therefore contributing to making these fossil fuel something that is sold, and therefore financing the Gulf countries, and therefore subsidizing Islamic terrorism. shrike82 posted:Nah, not really Europeans Are you trying to illustrate why you got this redtext av?
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Mar 24, 2016 16:02
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It must be a heavy moral burden to see your gas consumption lead to so many dead. I personally see the Jihadists as having the free will to decide whether they want to kill innocent civilians.
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Mar 24, 2016 16:05
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shrike82 posted:It must be a heavy moral burden to see your gas consumption lead to so many dead. Haha, so you'd literally keep funding someone who murders babies and makes it really clear that they are going to murder babies and use your generous donation to murder babies just because they have free will? That's not an analogy by the way, terrorists kill babies
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Mar 24, 2016 16:11
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Happy for us to cut off relations with the Middle East and ban immigration from them
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Mar 24, 2016 16:12
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shrike82 posted:Happy for us to cut off relations with the Middle East and ban immigration from them Okay, too bad all parties and movements who want to do that are also against weaning off oil. Maybe we should do something about those people. (In Europe they are all right-wing parties and movements)
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Mar 24, 2016 16:14
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Yeah, it's unfortunate that the Democrat party isn't moving on this, or European political groups for that matter. With the latter group, the recent refugee rapes and attacks are changing their minds thankfully
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Mar 24, 2016 16:16
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shrike82 posted:Yeah, it's unfortunate that the Democrat party isn't moving on this, or European political groups for that matter. Yeah they aren't though, global warming denialism among right-wing groups is pretty well shown, especially the business right wing ones. Considering that most of the anti-refugee parties are financed by Vladimir Putin, regularly appear on Russian networks and support Russia to the point of sending observers to Crimean "elections" I don't see them adopting an anti-oil stance any time soon
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Mar 24, 2016 16:24
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shrike82 posted:So not at all alike then Don't be stupid. People frequently turn to crime when they don't have any prospects or feel a sense of identity with the society in which they live. The reasons why you don't see more recruitment among black people in the U.S. include the fact that A, most black people belong to the majority religion of the U.S., and B, most black Americans' families have been in the U.S. for centuries. shrike82 posted:Happy for us to cut off relations with the Middle East and ban immigration from them Not doing much to disprove that hate title you've got there, are you?
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Mar 24, 2016 17:05
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Majorian posted:Don't be stupid. People frequently turn to crime when they don't have any prospects or feel a sense of identity with the society in which they live. I suppose in the most technical, reductive terms suicide bombing a gathering of people is a crime just like robbing a liquor store because you haven't eaten in three days.
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Mar 24, 2016 17:07
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shrike82 posted:It must be a heavy moral burden to see your gas consumption lead to so many dead. It's adorable that you think social, economic, and historical factors don't play a role in the way people's lives turn out.  TheWhiteNightmare posted:I suppose in the most technical, reductive terms suicide bombing a gathering of people is a crime just like robbing a liquor store because you haven't eaten in three days. I don't think that's technical or reductive at all. Both deal with a huge amount of alienation, a failure of society to provide adequate opportunities and services, etc. But it's also not a particularly deep analogy, so it's good that I'm not basing my argument on it. \/\/\/exactly\/\/\/ Majorian fucked around with this message at 17:12 on Mar 24, 2016 |
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Mar 24, 2016 17:08
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