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Atasnaya Vaflja posted:If you are uncomfortable with your gender then yes, you may not be "completely" cis and I encourage people to explore gender identity. So all women complaining about things like the burdens of traditional female labor and the stifling effects of strict gender roles should be informed that maaaaybe they feel this way because they're not really women. You're nuts. A woman who finds the traditional gender expectations of baby-making and home-making to be unpleasant and demanding is not any less of a woman because of it. Sucrose fucked around with this message at 03:24 on Mar 25, 2016 |
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Mar 25, 2016 03:21
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Sucrose posted:The idea that you might not be completely cis if you find some aspects of your gender to be unpleasant is deeply troubling. it ain't troubling at all, hoss there's way more inbetween and not so much in gender than most people ever think about. cis and trans are descriptors, not value judgments. explore a little! maybe find something out about yourself you didn't know.
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Mar 25, 2016 03:22
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Sucrose posted:So all women complaining about things like the burdens of traditional female labor and the stifling effects of strict gender roles should be informed that maaaaybe they feel this way because they're not really women. You're reaching to try and turn this into something it's not. The other poster was complaining that they couldn't choose their gender and that they were stuck with their gender. I said that if they're that upset about being stuck with their gender, and have that big of a chip on their shoulder that they aren't allowed to choose, and are that uncomfortable and limited, perhaps they aren't actually cis. No one even remotely suggested anything along the lines of what you are trying to say.
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Mar 25, 2016 03:25
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Atasnaya Vaflja posted:Also if your gender is unenjoyable, difficult, and limiting, perhaps you should consider that it's not the correct gender for you and you might feel more comfortable identifying another way. um....wouldn't that be a choice? quote:If you feel that way toward your gender, like it was something hefted onto you like a burden that you're not comfortable with... Well, you may not necessarily be cis, my friend. Being a human being is a burden sometimes, being alive is a burden sometimes, being a member of civilized society is a burden sometimes. Life is full of limitations and suffering and no matter what hand you are dealt, it will be limiting in some way. Part of being who I am is accepting the limitations of the circumstances I was born into. I am free to change some of those things, but I recognize that those changes are choices that I make, and that any part of my self-actualization which requires the participation of other people is not owed to me and it would be selfish to condemn people for not playing along with the story i tell myself about myself I could self-identify as a Great Poster, but is it really your responsibility to treat me as such even if you don't consider my posting to be Great?
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Mar 25, 2016 03:25
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Sucrose posted:A woman who finds the traditional gender expectations of baby-making and home-making to be unpleasant and demanding is not any less of a woman because of it. You realize there were people in this thread who were arguing that they are, and you're going to pick this nit with me? Someone on the last page said that they'd call a cis woman who didn't perform femininity to their specifications a man, but you're accusing me of this?
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Mar 25, 2016 03:26
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Commie NedFlanders posted:um....wouldn't that be a choice? No, because you didn't choose to be burdened or uncomfortable by your assigned sex. Trans people don't choose to be uncomfortable and dysphoric by our assigned sex. Nor do we choose what gender we're most comfortable identifying with.
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Mar 25, 2016 03:28
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Sucrose posted:So all women complaining about things like the burdens of traditional female labor and the stifling effects of strict gender roles should be informed that maaaaybe they feel this way because they're not really women. So, you know what your problem is? You've got this opportunity to discuss with at least two people about exactly where they're coming from - about their innate subjective experiences. Instead, what you're doing is putting as much effort in as possible to pick semantic holes in their descriptions about their lived experiences to try and either a) support your own preconceived notions or b) just stir people up on the interwebs. Basically, your problem is that you're a douche, and unfortunately, there's not a lot of treatment for it.
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Mar 25, 2016 03:29
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Atasnaya Vaflja posted:You're reaching to try and turn this into something it's not. I'm not complaining about the contingencies of my birth or socialization. I'm simply saying that for almost all people everywhere, they didn't choose this aspect of their identity, they were informed by society who they were. I didn't get to choose my ethnic heritage either. I can choose how much I let that heritage inform my life and character, I can choose to internalize and express various aspects of my ancestral ethnic background, or I can choose not to. I can choose to speak with an accent of my people's native tongue, or I can choose not to. I can decide how much and which aspects of the cards which I was dealt will influence my life and how much I will embrace them into my sense of who I am, but what I cannot (or should not) do, is put on blackface or tape my eyes so they look squinty and start demanding that other people treat me as a member of an ethnic community that I didn't come from. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 25, 2016 03:32
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Commie NedFlanders posted:I'm not complaining about the contingencies of my birth or socialization. I'm simply saying that for almost all people everywhere, they didn't choose this aspect of their identity, they were informed by society who they were. Are you comparing being trans to performing blackface right now?
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Mar 25, 2016 03:34
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Atasnaya Vaflja posted:No, because you didn't choose to be burdened or uncomfortable by your assigned sex. Trans people don't choose to be uncomfortable and dysphoric by our assigned sex. Nor do we choose what gender we're most comfortable identifying with. thinking that your own comfort is that important is one of the most defining aspect of Privilege news flash, everyone is uncomfortable, but not everyone gets to imagine who they want to be and expect the rest of society to indulge that fantasy
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Mar 25, 2016 03:36
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Commie NedFlanders posted:thinking that your own comfort is that important is one of the most defining aspect of Privilege How many times have I said that it's more than "discomfort" and it's more like "having our legal rights stomped on and not being treated like full human beings?" Trans people are not privileged. We can be fired from our jobs just because we are trans. We are murdered and beaten just for being trans. What part of that sounds like privilege and comfort, to you?
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Mar 25, 2016 03:38
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Atasnaya Vaflja posted:Are you comparing being trans to performing blackface right now? assume i'm totally autistic (i may be, you don't know), and please explain to me exactly how appropriating another gender CANNOT BE COMPARED to appropriating another ethnicity
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Mar 25, 2016 03:38
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Commie NedFlanders posted:I didn't get to choose my ethnic heritage either. I can choose how much I let that heritage inform my life and character, I can choose to internalize and express various aspects of my ancestral ethnic background, or I can choose not to. I can choose to speak with an accent of my people's native tongue, or I can choose not to. I can decide how much and which aspects of the cards which I was dealt will influence my life and how much I will embrace them into my sense of who I am, but what I cannot (or should not) do, is put on blackface or tape my eyes so they look squinty and start demanding that other people treat me as a member of an ethnic community that I didn't come from. Wow, give the man a prize for "dumb argument that nobody has ever made up before". Counting down until he compares us with furries.
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Mar 25, 2016 03:39
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sidviscous posted:So, you know what your problem is? This was the exact quote, in response to someone saying that their gender role has often been difficult and limiting: Atasnaya Vaflja posted:Also if your gender is unenjoyable, difficult, and limiting, perhaps you should consider that it's not the correct gender for you and you might feel more comfortable identifying another way. If you feel that way toward your gender, like it was something hefted onto you like a burden that you're not comfortable with... Well, you may not necessarily be cis, my friend. According to Atasnaya Vaflja, if your gender is unenjoyable and limiting, you might feel more comfortable identifying as another gender. How am I supposed to interpret this statement? It goes against everything that up until now, I have been told about the nature of transsexualism. As I was told, if you look in the mirror and feel that your body and your genitals are all wrong, and you feel innately like a member of the opposite gender, then you are transexual. No questioning about it. According to Atasnaya Vaflja, if you find your gender role burdensome, you "may not necessarily be cis, my friend." Does anyone want to clarify? Because I don't see how I'm twisting anyone's argument; it's a direct quote. Sucrose fucked around with this message at 03:46 on Mar 25, 2016 |
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Mar 25, 2016 03:40
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Commie NedFlanders posted:assume i'm totally autistic (i may be, you don't know), and please explain to me exactly how appropriating another gender CANNOT BE COMPARED to appropriating another ethnicity Because we aren't "appropriating another gender." We are that gender. Blackface is used to mock and hurt black people. It's put on as an act and taken off afterward. Trans people are just trying to live our lives. We aren't trying to hurt anyone. It's not a costume we put on. It's not something we take off at the end of the day. It's what we are. Our genders ARE the genders we identify as, which is another privilege cis people have over us. You don't talk about a cis person's gender as an "identity" or something they have as an "extra", it's something inherent. Trans people's genders are exactly the same. Our genders are inherent. A trans woman is a woman. A trans man is a man. A non binary person is non binary.
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Mar 25, 2016 03:42
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Commie NedFlanders posted:assume i'm totally autistic (i may be, you don't know), and please explain to me exactly how appropriating another gender CANNOT BE COMPARED to appropriating another ethnicity Maybe because there hasn't been tens of thousands of years of history of people, across all cultures, identifying as other ethnicities for reasons totally independent of the perceived advantages of that ethnicity? Maybe because there seems to be evidence of biological concordance (including twin studies) in non-normative gender identification. Maybe because we're us *ALL THE TIME*, not just putting on some war bonnet at a music festival. Even when it's uncomfortable or dangerous to us Of course, if you are actually autistic (and you're right - I don't know), you'll probably pick on some tiny issue and totally ignore the broad picture.
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Mar 25, 2016 03:44
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Sucrose posted:This was the exact quote, in response to someone saying that their gender role has often been difficult and limiting: Do you know what the word "might" means? Also you can stop saying "the nature of transsexualism," that's really creepy and weird. You're making us sound like laboratory animals in a study. We're humans. We're telling you our experiences. In my experience, if you have difficulty and discomfort with your gender, it may be because you don't actually identify with it. I don't know why you're having so much difficulty with my statement. If someone is uncomfortable, finds little enjoyment, and feels limited or trapped in their gender identity, perhaps they may be trans. Those are some of the most basic symptoms of dysphoria.
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Mar 25, 2016 03:46
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Atasnaya Vaflja posted:Do you know what the word "might" means? I'm also not sure you used the word "role" either. There's a huge difference between gender and gender role. Sucrose: This might actually blow your mind I know, but butch tomboy trans women actually exist. As do effeminate trans men.
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Mar 25, 2016 03:48
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In my lovely opinion, "gender appropriation" and "cultural appropriation" would both be perfectly fine ways for people to put themselves in another person's shoes and expand ideas and art. Some people will be dicks and mock fun of others in the process, but you gotta ignore the haters.
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Mar 25, 2016 03:48
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Atasnaya Vaflja posted:Do you know what the word "might" means? I'm talking about gender roles, not identities. As was the original poster you were responding to at the time you suggested they might not be cis. I don't think anyone's going to argue with "if you're a man and you feel like a woman, you might be transexual."
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Mar 25, 2016 03:50
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Atasnaya Vaflja posted:How many times have I said that it's more than "discomfort" and it's more like "having our legal rights stomped on and not being treated like full human beings?" being treated like a full human being means accepting that full human beings are thrown into the world without their consent, into circumstances outside of their control, and are forced to navigate a life of suffering and limitation. i would love to just write out a character bio of who i would like to be in the world, but i am not so self-centered to think that anyone else owes me their participation in that fantasy. I am stuck being who i am, and i can change that to some degree, but i cannot expect people to just play along with what i want because it would make me more comfortable. quote:Trans people are not privileged. We can be fired from our jobs just because we are trans. i live in a right to work state where most workers can be fired for Literally No Reason At All quote:We are murdered and beaten just for being trans. that really sucks, but it's not exceptional. people get beaten and murdered for their ethnicity, for their religious beliefs, our own government has done this stuff against people for their political beliefs. it's really terrible, people shouldn't treat each other like that, there's no room for excuses or tolerance for that kind of hatred or violence. quote:What part of that sounds like privilege and comfort, to you? the part where you can assert your gender based on what makes you feel comfortable and expect others to indulge your self-image when >99.9% of people have simply been told by society what their gender is and had to deal with it
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Mar 25, 2016 03:50
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Sucrose posted:I'm talking about gender roles, not identities. As was the original poster you were responding to at the time you suggested they might not be cis. I don't think anyone's going to argue with "if you're a man and you feel like a woman, you might be transexual." So, where did she mention that you might be uncomfortable with your gender *role* rather than your gender.
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Mar 25, 2016 03:52
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Commie NedFlanders posted:i live in a right to work state where most workers can be fired for Literally No Reason At All that's at-will not right to work, yet another thing commie nedfladners doesnt understand
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Mar 25, 2016 03:52
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Commie NedFlanders posted:being treated like a full human being means accepting that full human beings are thrown into the world without their consent, into circumstances outside of their control, and are forced to navigate a life of suffering and limitation. i would love to just write out a character bio of who i would like to be in the world, but i am not so self-centered to think that anyone else owes me their participation in that fantasy. I am stuck being who i am, and i can change that to some degree, but i cannot expect people to just play along with what i want because it would make me more comfortable. Trans people are more likely to be fired, abused, beaten, and murdered just for being trans. We are more likely to be homeless. We are discriminated against. It's easier for a cis person to get out of these situations. It's easier for a cis person to recover or to get help. Our genders are told to us by society. We're abused and harassed when we assert our gender. It really, really sounds like you have a chip on your shoulder about your own gender and this is why I suggested you do some exploring. When you sound so extraordinarily bitter about having to "deal" with the gender you're dealt you may not actually be cis, yourself. Guess what? Trans people have to "deal" with the gender society assigns to us to, but we found out that society isn't right. We learned that society was wrong to force its idea of gender onto us and we discovered what was right for us. Maybe you'd be more comfortable if you searched that out, too. Also, trans people are more than .1% of the population.
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Mar 25, 2016 03:56
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Commie NedFlanders posted:the part where you can assert your gender based on what makes you feel comfortable and expect others to indulge your self-image when >99.9% of people have simply been told by society what their gender is and had to deal with it Where 99.9% of people literally have no problem with their gender identity is what you actually mean. If you feel like you're having to *deal* with your gender. (NOT YOUR GENDER ROLE OR SOCIETAL EXPECTATIONS OF IT OR WHETHER YOU WANT TO BE ABLE TO WALK AROUND IN A DRESS OR WHETHER YOU FEEL THAT BEING A MAN IS TOO MUCH EXPECTATION - FOR THE PITUITARY RETARDS HERE), that it's an intrinsic burden so intense that you feel like you're not actually privileged in society compared to the people who actually have to call their future employers and say "hey, you know, I'm transitioning, I thought I should tell you", with a significant expectation that you might not actually end up starting. Or that you worry about a wave of legislation being passed which makes you have to choose between being arrested or being assaulted every time you want to use the loo. Then holy poo poo - you might be one of us. Or not.
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Mar 25, 2016 03:56
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Sucrose posted:I'm talking about gender roles, not identities. As was the original poster you were responding to. I don't think anyone's going to argue with "if you're a man and you feel like a woman, you might be transexual." maybe, but if you're a man, how can you have any idea what it feels like to be a woman? isn't treating a male fantasy of womanhood as equivalent to a woman's subjective experience of womanhood simply a performative type of Mansplaining?
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Mar 25, 2016 03:56
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Commie NedFlanders posted:maybe, but if you're a man, how can you have any idea what it feels like to be a woman? No, because trans women aren't men. Trans women are women. Trans women don't have a "male fantasy of womanhood" and there's no subjective experience of womanhood.
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Mar 25, 2016 03:57
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Commie NedFlanders posted:maybe, but if you're a man, how can you have any idea what it feels like to be a woman? i'm pretty sure you handwaving away the experiences of trans people as fantasies of *hood is some kind of 'splaining, and also that you're a trashfire
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Mar 25, 2016 03:58
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Commie NedFlanders posted:maybe, but if you're a man, how can you have any idea what it feels like to be a woman? Because of course, all women have exactly the same experience of womanhood. Thankyou for your insight here. Are there any other "best of TERF arguments we've all heard a million times before" you have lined up?
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Mar 25, 2016 03:58
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sidviscous posted:Where 99.9% of people literally have no problem with their gender identity is what you actually mean. this is a privileged attitude, it's the privilege of victimhood where you assume (a prejudiced assumption) that the grass is Literally Perfectly Green in everyone else's side of the fence. i'm sorry to tell you but 99.9% of people in the world are not walking around with literally no problems concerning their gender identity. quote:If you feel like you're having to *deal* with your gender. (NOT YOUR GENDER ROLE OR SOCIETAL EXPECTATIONS OF IT OR WHETHER YOU WANT TO BE ABLE TO WALK AROUND IN A DRESS OR WHETHER YOU FEEL THAT BEING A MAN IS TOO MUCH EXPECTATION - FOR THE PITUITARY RETARDS HERE), that it's an intrinsic burden so intense that you feel like you're not actually privileged in society compared to the people who actually have to call their future employers and say "hey, you know, I'm transitioning, I thought I should tell you", with a significant expectation that you might not actually end up starting. Or that you worry about a wave of legislation being passed which makes you have to choose between being arrested or being assaulted every time you want to use the loo. help me out here, what exactly is gender if you exclude gender roles and societal expectations?
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Mar 25, 2016 04:00
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Please explain to me what the Subjective Experience of Womanhood is, though. 
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Mar 25, 2016 04:02
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sidviscous posted:So, where did she mention that you might be uncomfortable with your gender *role* rather than your gender. She didn't. Commie Ned Flanders was going on about never having chosen their gender, and being cast by society into their gender role has often been difficult and limiting. At which point Atasnaya Vafja said that if they feel that way, they might not be cis. Why do you keep responding for Atasnaya Vafja anyway?
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Mar 25, 2016 04:03
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Commie NedFlanders posted:this is a privileged attitude, it's the privilege of victimhood where you assume (a prejudiced assumption) that the grass is Literally Perfectly Green in everyone else's side of the fence. There is a lot of psychological literature on gender identity and its difference from gender roles. Since I think the likelihood of you arguing in good faith is vanishingly small, I'm not going to spend more time- since if you're really interested, you'll look it up. Instead, I'm going to get on with my immeasurably better post-transitioning life and smile about the amount of it that I'm not wasting arguing with sad cunts on the internet who seem to have no greater pleasures. Much love to you.
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Mar 25, 2016 04:06
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sidviscous posted:Because of course, all women have exactly the same experience of womanhood. Thankyou for your insight here. more bad faith arguing. i never once claimed that all women have exactly the same experience of womanhood, quote:Are there any other "best of TERF arguments we've all heard a million times before" you have lined up? hey if i'm asking questions you're heard a million times before, then i would think you probably have thought about it very thoroughly and have some well reasoned answers that can be explained without resorting to insults or disingenuous posturing instead of just treating me like i'm stupid or ignorant, why not take the chance to educate me? i'm asking and you're responding like this, it could lead one to think you don't really believe in the values of mutual respect and treating people with decency or maybe you just don't have a good answer? i'm not sure, maybe it's neither, i won't presume to know
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Mar 25, 2016 04:07
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Sucrose posted:According to Atasnaya Vaflja, if you find your gender role burdensome, you "may not necessarily be cis, my friend." Does anyone want to clarify? Because I don't see how I'm twisting anyone's argument; it's a direct quote. It's not a direct quote, because I never said "gender role," I just said gender, in reference to the fact that Commie NedFlanders was lamenting the fact that they couldn't choose their gender. You're absolutely twisting words and have been all along.
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Mar 25, 2016 04:09
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[edit: deleted]
DeathMuffin fucked around with this message at 04:13 on Mar 25, 2016 |
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Mar 25, 2016 04:10
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Commie NedFlanders posted:hey if i'm asking questions you're heard a million times before, then i would think you probably have thought about it very thoroughly and have some well reasoned answers that can be explained without resorting to insults or disingenuous posturing hey i think if your arguments are literally the same bigoted bullshit as a million other people it is not on the people you're being a shitheel towards to prove that no see the shape of black people's skulls does not mean they're genetically inferior to the glorious white man
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Mar 25, 2016 04:11
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Commie NedFlanders posted:more bad faith arguing. You haven't been arguing in good faith or treating people with respect or decency this entire thread.
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Mar 25, 2016 04:11
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trans women are just men indulging in fantasies of womanhood, now be respectful to me or you won't change my mind
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Mar 25, 2016 04:13
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sidviscous posted:There is a lot of psychological literature on gender identity and its difference from gender roles. i have looked it up, i'm not 100% ignorant, and my understanding is that Gender is a social construct, not reducible to biology, which has more to do with social roles and norms and expectations than simply chromosomes or genitals. my understanding is that gender is formed at the intersection of social roles, family functions, the politics and economy of sexual reproduction, and biology there's also the psychoanalytic conception of gender in Lacan as two different structural positions which regulate the subject's relationship to the phallus it seems to me a lot of the arguments i'm seeing thrown around are stripping the notion of gender of all meaning, and i'm having a hard time understanding what the concept of Gender actually means, what it is actually referring to. if you can help, i'm trying to be open, but an open mind is not the same thing as automatically accepting your world view (and to be frank, a lot of people arguing in such bad faith is making it more difficult than it should be)
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Mar 25, 2016 04:13
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