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Sperglord Actual posted:WG has zero problem padding out their other lines with incremental upgrades, though. Double points for the ones that are incremental and fictitious. I mean incremental as in they rearranged the middle turrets, swapped the secondaries, lengthened the hull slightly for a bit bigger boiler room (gaining .5 knots) and called it a day. That's tiny overall. xthetenth fucked around with this message at 21:54 on Mar 24, 2016 |
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Mar 24, 2016 21:51
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Kaga was a terrible CV, and realistically Akagi wasn't much better. Just another flaw of IJN doctrine that virtually all the elite squadrons were clustered on those two since they were the first fleet carriers put into service. Much of the crew serving on Kaga absolutely hated her, and Akagi's situation wasn't much better, though in her case she apparently had one of the best cooks in the fleet aboard, and thus was significantly more tolerable for that alone.
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Mar 24, 2016 21:57
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Why were the elite pilots all clustered on the two first CVs?
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Mar 24, 2016 22:19
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The IJN's doctrine and organization had the flexibility of a concrete slab. Prior to Midway, they had a carrier that was damaged and a carrier that had lost most of its planes. It literally never occurred to them to move the surviving planes and pilots onto the good carrier and use it at Midway.
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Mar 24, 2016 22:43
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The tier 3 Russian cruisers is like the pre-nerfed St Louis but with way faster shells. I know it's first impressions, everyone's learning to use them blah blah blah but I have played 3 games and got 2 confederate badges... Bogatyr, queen of my heart. Update: Tier IV, Svietlana is made of tin foil and gasoline but shits out a lot of damage. Burt fucked around with this message at 23:39 on Mar 24, 2016 |
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Mar 24, 2016 23:06
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The Svietlana seems to have some serious issues with getting its engine crit by HE shells. Probably the same buggy armor scheme some of the low tier German CAs had.
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Mar 25, 2016 03:29
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Night10194 posted:Why were the elite pilots all clustered on the two first CVs? The doctrinal reason was to train ship and air wing crews as a single unit, so they'd theoretically be more efficient as they were used to each others habits and all, as opposed to the US doctrine of air wings being units separate from the carriers themselves. It's even possible that the IJN model was somewhat more efficient, but it didn't really outweigh having all their eggs in a single basket, along with said basket being the shittiest in the fleet. They were also horribly inflexible at making any changes, as the example Sperlord touched on illustrated. As Kaga and Akagi were the oldest carriers(1st Carrier Division) they also had the most experienced crews and squadrons, whereas Shokaku and Zuikaku (5th Carrier Division) were the newest, and thus got the least experienced. What Sperglord is referring to was the aftermath of the Battle of Coral Sea, where Shokaku took heavy damage to her flight deck but came through with a mostly intact air group whereas Zuikaku came through completely undamaged but with heavy losses to her own air group. And it's actually worse than Sperglord mentioned, as if the IJN had actually worked at it they probably could have still fielded BOTH at Midway a month later, likely resulting in a reasonably clean IJN win*. In the time between the two battles, the US worked frantically to repair the singular heavily damaged carrier of their own that survived Coral Sea, and managed to effect enough repairs and replacements for Yorktown to participate at Midway - likely playing the critical role at that for a number of reasons. Meanwhile, there was no real effort made to either repair Shokaku or replenish Zuikaku's air groups with new recruits and planes, let alone move Shokaku's air group to Zuikaku. The even more idiotic thing behind that whole trainwreck was that sending only Shokaku and Zuikaku into the Coral Sea was a massive violation by Yamamoto of his own doctrine - which was that if an objective was valuable enough to commit the Kido Butai, it was valuable enough to commit the entirety, and the inverse as well. *By which I mean the naval battle. The Japanese were never realistically going to take Midway itself in a remotely reasonably timeframe, no matter what they optimistically thought. Lord Koth fucked around with this message at 04:06 on Mar 25, 2016 |
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Mar 25, 2016 04:03
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Lord Koth posted:What Sperglord is referring to was the aftermath of the Battle of Coral Sea, where Shokaku took heavy damage to her flight deck but came through with a mostly intact air group whereas Zuikaku came through completely undamaged but with heavy losses to her own air group. And it's actually worse than Sperglord mentioned, as if the IJN had actually worked at it they probably could have still fielded BOTH at Midway a month later, likely resulting in a reasonably clean IJN win*. In the time between the two battles, the US worked frantically to repair the singular heavily damaged carrier of their own that survived Coral Sea, and managed to effect enough repairs and replacements for Yorktown to participate at Midway - likely playing the critical role at that for a number of reasons. Meanwhile, there was no real effort made to either repair Shokaku or replenish Zuikaku's air groups with new recruits and planes, let alone move Shokaku's air group to Zuikaku. One more Japanese carrier isn't going to stop the first US strike of the day, and postulating that another deck's worth of CAS would stop two dive bomber attacks that got through seems a pretty bold assertion given that most of the Japanese problem that let them through was poor coordination and just swarming the first planes in, which scales perfectly with the number of planes in the air to make them all useless. They might well have gotten Yorktown the first time (although I doubt it, it took a ludicrous amount of punishment to sink, same as Hornet), and that could've let them go find the other two decks and hit them as well, but that's an absolute ton of things to go right.
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Mar 25, 2016 04:08
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xthetenth posted:One more Japanese carrier isn't going to stop the first US strike of the day, and postulating that another deck's worth of CAS would stop two dive bomber attacks that got through seems a pretty bold assertion given that most of the Japanese problem that let them through was poor coordination and just swarming the first planes in, which scales perfectly with the number of planes in the air to make them all useless. To be fair, the "reasonably clean win" was predicated on them not being dumb as hell and actually fielding both missing carriers, not just the simple strategy of moving the other air group to Zuikaku, as with just a single extra carrier it becomes a far more cloudy issue. For some analysis, more Zeroes in the air means that there are more chances at least some of them might stay higher up or, even if they do all come down, at least retain decent stocks of fuel and ammunition - which was another issue in the actual battle, as many ended up mostly running out of both and thus could do nothing even if they did manage to climb again. Alternatively, they end up shooting down the TBDs faster, resulting in less radical maneuvering by the IJN carriers and thus a better chance they actually get their strike aircraft into the air again before the dive bombers hit, rather than getting caught with fuel and ammo all over the place on deck, resulting in far less damage. The presence of another carrier also increases the chances of dispersion of damage by the DBs - even in the actual battle there was a miscommunication about which squadron hit which carrier, which nearly resulted in Akagi getting through the first attack unscathed if not for one flight leader really paying attention. Even then she only took a single bomb that just got incredibly lucky - something with likely far lower chance of happening in this scenario due to several factors. Still, even if the first strike goes the exact same way, you're still now faced with a likely 2v2 scenario, as opposed to the 1v3 it ended up as in real life. After all, even aside from absorbing both attacks, Yorktown was able to effect enough repairs after the first attack on her to launch another attack wave - something that likely would not have happened with two air groups attacking it even if she does still manage to survive the first wave. This might actually result in the IJN salvaging at least some assets from the battle, and/or causing more damage, rather than losing them in their entirety. To take the average in this scenario where the KB shows up with 5 carriers, they still lose Kaga and Soryu in the first wave, but the other three survive it mostly unscathed and likely sink Yorktown in the first attack. At this point you're left with a scenario whose result is rather hard to predict. The US likely still has a second strike coming in, but the dual factors of there being less planes, due to no attack wave flying off Yorktown, and there being far more Zeroes in the air makes the inevitability of the historical result far less certain. You also have a second and possibly third strike off the IJN carriers that does ???. Admittedly in this scenario the KB has still lost 1/3 of its strength, which is a massive blow, but they're no longer almost completely absent during most of '42-'43. The US still wins of course, but it very possibly takes longer. Lord Koth fucked around with this message at 05:20 on Mar 25, 2016 |
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Mar 25, 2016 05:18
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Yeah, both carriers would be interesting, but wouldn't that bring Lex back in unless I miss what you're talking about (although that would cost the US Lex's loss which was pretty drat important in figuring out how to keep their carriers as ridiculously safe as they were and is the only thing keeping me from disagreeing with regards to losing Yorktown in the first attack). And I'm pretty confident that Akagi would at least get hit, Best and McClusky's squadrons going in is kind of a package deal, and Best was really good at his job.
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Mar 25, 2016 05:49
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xthetenth posted:Yeah, both carriers would be interesting, but wouldn't that bring Lex back in unless I miss what you're talking about (although that would cost the US Lex's loss which was pretty drat important in figuring out how to keep their carriers as ridiculously safe as they were and is the only thing keeping me from disagreeing with regards to losing Yorktown in the first attack). I mean with a name like that you kinda have to be.
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Mar 25, 2016 06:08
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Night10194 posted:I mean with a name like that you kinda have to be. Also his first name was "Dick."
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Mar 25, 2016 06:40
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I logged in today, started a match and they sent out a warning that the servers will restart in 2 minutes and that russian cruisers will be removed from the game. Everyone in the match started a mad dash to the center of the map and artillery and torpedoes were everywhere, suffice to say it was the most fun i have had in a match ever 
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Mar 25, 2016 11:19
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xthetenth posted:Yeah, both carriers would be interesting, but wouldn't that bring Lex back in unless I miss what you're talking about (although that would cost the US Lex's loss which was pretty drat important in figuring out how to keep their carriers as ridiculously safe as they were and is the only thing keeping me from disagreeing with regards to losing Yorktown in the first attack). Nah, in that instance what I meant was that the Japanese worked overtime to get Shokaku repaired enough for flight operations, as the US did in the case of Yorktown. In theory at least it should have been possible, and that was simply being used as a "best possible result" for the IJN. As for the final breakdown I'm not necessarily arguing against Akagi getting hit, but rather that the single hit doesn't find the same conditions aboard(a hangar completely full of of armed and fueled planes). I generally looked at it as Kaga was doomed regardless, as her actual gas lines were ruptured, along with much of her fire suppression gear getting knocked out, in addition to the armed aircraft, but Akagi and Soryu owed much of their own fates purely to the stored aircraft. Soryu took multiple 1000 lb hits as opposed to a single 500 lb bomb on Akagi, which is why I went the that choice.
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Mar 25, 2016 11:29
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Sveitlana update. It's a babby Atlanta without the poo poo slow shells. Sit at 11km and rain fiery death at everyone. Shells are fast, flat-ish and hit hard. There's deffo something wrong with the engine and steering hit box though. Anything hitting the back half of the ship has you dead in the water way too often. Get the Last stand commander skill for sure on this baby. First three ships of this line are all OK with the Boga most definitely a keeper.
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Mar 25, 2016 12:13
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Kutuzov is back in the premium shop again if anyone is interested in a pretty solid tier 8 cruiser. For those not aware and are new, the kutuzov has a range similar if not longer than the battleships in that bracket with a 19km range. And her ap shells are still quite decent.Fizzil posted:I logged in today, started a match and they sent out a warning that the servers will restart in 2 minutes and that russian cruisers will be removed from the game. Everyone in the match started a mad dash to the center of the map and artillery and torpedoes were everywhere, suffice to say it was the most fun i have had in a match ever What do you mean removed? Or did you mean added? Because I don't see any notice about them being removed on the US page and I don't see why they would be removed anyway.
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Mar 25, 2016 13:28
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Sperglord Actual posted:The IJN's doctrine and organization had the flexibility of a concrete slab. Seriously? There has to be some reasons why they couldn't... I mean, it's be pretty stupid if it was just because they simply didn't think about it.
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Mar 25, 2016 15:15
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Dalael posted:Seriously? There has to be some reasons why they couldn't... I mean, it's be pretty stupid if it was just because they simply didn't think about it. Why? If you feel that the air wing is part of the ship, then you have two ships incapable of fighting. Doctrine is a set of assumptions and assumptions have a great bit of power over thought.
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Mar 25, 2016 15:31
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Dalael posted:Seriously? There has to be some reasons why they couldn't... I mean, it's be pretty stupid if it was just because they simply didn't think about it. Other things the Japanese didn't think about : -The realistic outcome of a war against a country with a much bigger economy and without a crippling dependence on imports.
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Mar 25, 2016 15:47
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xthetenth posted:Why? If you feel that the air wing is part of the ship, then you have two ships incapable of fighting. Doctrine is a set of assumptions and assumptions have a great bit of power over thought. I guess with the benefit of hindsight it feels stupid... You would think that when in a state of total war, you'd want to have as much of your assets in working condition as possible. Sperglord Actual posted:Other things the Japanese didn't think about : My understanding of what happened (please keep in mind I know very little about the pacific war theatre) is that they kinda had no choice. Didn't the US stop exporting oil (or some other resource) that the japanese really needed and which were going to hamper them in their war effort in China? Something along those lines?
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Mar 25, 2016 15:56
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Lord Koth posted:.... they actually get their strike aircraft into the air again before the dive bombers hit, rather than getting caught with fuel and ammo all over the place on deck, resulting in far less damage. ... Everyone should read Shattered Sword. The planes on the flight deck is one persistent myth that didn't really happen because the IJN hadn't enough time to get them there. Also, the Japanese CV's enclosed flight decks made it impossible to push burning aircraft and ordinance over the side the way open sided USA CV's could. Additionally, Japanese damage control abilities were much worse than their US counterparts and neither side had a solid idea of the shock and concussive damage caused to shaft seals, steam piping etc. The USA managed to get a handle on that over the course of the war while the IJN didn't. Sperglord Actual posted:Other things the Japanese didn't think about : Some of them did think about it and urged the Japanese government to not enter the war for that very reason. They urged the Japanese government to merely seize the oil fields of Java without directly attacking the USA, reasoning that isolationist elements in the US government and populace would be deeply opposed to a war where the USA wasn't directly attacked. JuffoWup posted:Kutuzov is back in the premium shop again if anyone is interested in a pretty solid tier 8 cruiser. For those not aware and are new, the kutuzov has a range similar if not longer than the battleships in that bracket with a 19km range. And her ap shells are still quite decent. I might pick up an OP Stalinium cruiser.
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Mar 25, 2016 16:00
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Dalael posted:My understanding of what happened (please keep in mind I know very little about the pacific war theatre) is that they kinda had no choice. Didn't the US stop exporting oil (or some other resource) that the japanese really needed and which were going to hamper them in their war effort in China? Something along those lines? The Japanese leadership was packed to the gills with warmongering politicians and officers who believed in Japan's divine right to rule all of asia, and directed Japanese policy to take it all by force, including the European and American colonies. War between Japan and the US was inevitable, with or without the scrap iron and oil embargos.
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Mar 25, 2016 16:50
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NTRabbit posted:The Japanese leadership was packed to the gills with warmongering politicians and officers who believed in Japan's divine right to rule all of asia, and directed Japanese policy to take it all by force, including the European and American colonies. War between Japan and the US was inevitable, with or without the scrap iron and oil embargos. To me, the big question has always been: How did a nation who approximately 70 years earlier still fought with swords when colonial powers showed up with Iron Clads and cannons thought that they were now in a position to beat the poo poo out of the western powers. 
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Mar 25, 2016 17:00
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Dalael posted:To me, the big question has always been: How did a nation who approximately 70 years earlier still fought with swords when colonial powers showed up with Iron Clads and cannons thought that they were now in a position to beat the poo poo out of the western powers. Well, they kicked Russia's poo poo in. That's what sort of got them a (grudging) seat at the Imperialism Table.
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Mar 25, 2016 17:01
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To anyone who says the TII Novik is a good ship, I call BS. I would say its easily the worst ship in the game (although I skipped Karlsruhe). I actually burst out laughing the first time I fired its guns. Poor guns, mediocre armor & concealment, slightly fast but not enough to be relevant on T2 maps. I would literally rather play the Orlan as a T2, its a much better ship. The Bogatyr is amazing though, I'm definately considering keeping it. And this is from someone who didn't like St Louis, although that was a long time ago. I haven't reached it yet, but It seems opinions on the Svetlana are massively varying. I've heard some people say its the worst ship in the line/game but others saying it has amazing guns but bad armour. I had planned to skip it but I'll probably play through it now.
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Mar 25, 2016 17:02
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Night10194 posted:Well, they kicked Russia's poo poo in. That's what sort of got them a (grudging) seat at the Imperialism Table. They did? What battle would that be, I'm gonna read about it.
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Mar 25, 2016 17:03
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Dalael posted:To me, the big question has always been: How did a nation who approximately 70 years earlier still fought with swords when colonial powers showed up with Iron Clads and cannons thought that they were now in a position to beat the poo poo out of the western powers. Blame the Russians. Tsushima really gave the bellicose Japanese nationalists a shot in the arm. Dalael posted:They did? What battle would that be, I'm gonna read about it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tsushima
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Mar 25, 2016 17:03
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Dalael posted:They did? What battle would that be, I'm gonna read about it. You've never heard of the Battle of Tsushima Strait? Or of the Russo-Japanese War of 1905? And bear in mind, this happened in 1905, when everyone thought Russia was actually really powerful and didn't quite understand how deep the systemic problems and dysfunction in that Empire went. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tsushima I know it's Wikipedia, but still, this was The Decisive Battle and wanting to replicate this kind of incredible naval drubbing drove a lot of Japanese military planning.
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Mar 25, 2016 17:06
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I wish I could find a link but I read a hilarious account of just how much of a debacle that battle and the build up to it was from the Russian perspective. It included a Russian ship shelling a Swedish trawler in the Baltic Sea because they thought it was Japanese. If you look at a map you'll see how ridiculous that was. And yes, the Russians set off to fight Japan by sailing west. Mutinies, ships getting lost, breaking down, scurvy...the works.
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Mar 25, 2016 17:07
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NTRabbit posted:Tsushima really gave the bellicose Japanese nationalists a shot in the arm. And utterly hosed Japan's tactical outlook for the next four decades. Fun fact: Japan and Russia each have a survivor of Tsushima preserved as museum ships. kaesarsosei posted:It included a Russian ship shelling a Swedish trawler in the Baltic Sea because they thought it was Japanese. If you look at a map you'll see how ridiculous that was. And yes, the Russians set off to fight Japan by sailing west. Mutinies, ships getting lost, breaking down, scurvy...the works. It's not as ridiculous as it sounds. Japan had recently signed an alliance with Britain and the Russians thought Japan might have sent torpedo boats into European waters. As for sailing west, that's what happens when your Pacific fleet gets thrashed and the only replacements are on the far side of Eurasia. Somebody Awful fucked around with this message at 17:14 on Mar 25, 2016 |
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Mar 25, 2016 17:09
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Mikasa is a really, really pretty boat. Mikasa and Aurora are both in this game, too.
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Mar 25, 2016 17:11
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MoraleHazard posted:Everyone should read Shattered Sword. The planes on the flight deck is one persistent myth that didn't really happen because the IJN hadn't enough time to get them there. Also, the Japanese CV's enclosed flight decks made it impossible to push burning aircraft and ordinance over the side the way open sided USA CV's could. Additionally, Japanese damage control abilities were much worse than their US counterparts and neither side had a solid idea of the shock and concussive damage caused to shaft seals, steam piping etc. The USA managed to get a handle on that over the course of the war while the IJN didn't. They had a ton of planes and fuel in the hangars though, and planes burn great once you get them going. Add in the system with only two mains and you're in trouble. Part of the reason the Yorktown took so much to sink is that they were able to push planes overboard out the side of the open hangar deck. Dalael posted:To me, the big question has always been: How did a nation who approximately 70 years earlier still fought with swords when colonial powers showed up with Iron Clads and cannons thought that they were now in a position to beat the poo poo out of the western powers. Second best navy in the world at the time. They very likely could've beaten a distracted UK, and pretty definitely could've beaten France, Italy, Germany or Russia and likely an arbitrary combination thereof.
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Mar 25, 2016 17:22
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Dalael posted:I guess with the benefit of hindsight it feels stupid... You would think that when in a state of total war, you'd want to have as much of your assets in working condition as possible. it was answered before, that the pilots were part of the ship's crew basically. Lord Koth posted:The doctrinal reason was to train ship and air wing crews as a single unit, so they'd theoretically be more efficient as they were used to each others habits and all, as opposed to the US doctrine of air wings being units separate from the carriers themselves. It's even possible that the IJN model was somewhat more efficient, but it didn't really outweigh having all their eggs in a single basket, along with said basket being the shittiest in the fleet. They were also horribly inflexible at making any changes, as the example Sperlord touched on illustrated. As Kaga and Akagi were the oldest carriers(1st Carrier Division) they also had the most experienced crews and squadrons, whereas Shokaku and Zuikaku (5th Carrier Division) were the newest, and thus got the least experienced. other people also do stupid things because of doctrinal ideas, like the british before the war making infantry support tanks and then expecting them to use the 2pdr's AP shots on emplacements (explosive shot? like the artillery? bah!) like they were a giant noisy elephant gun on tracks. pseudo-edit: poo poo I forgot to actually click the submit button when I finished this post over an hour ago 
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Mar 25, 2016 17:29
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Night10194 posted:You've never heard of the Battle of Tsushima Strait? Or of the Russo-Japanese War of 1905? And bear in mind, this happened in 1905, when everyone thought Russia was actually really powerful and didn't quite understand how deep the systemic problems and dysfunction in that Empire went. No, I had not heard of that before. I know very little about that time period in history but I will definitely read about it now. It seems pretty interesting.
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Mar 25, 2016 17:31
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There was basically an actual reason Japan thought 'If we win a big decisive battle our enemies will sue for peace' and that reason was because it had happened before. It doesn't make their decisions in WWII any more sane, but it does help explain them.
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Mar 25, 2016 17:32
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The irony is that the Russian Empire, even as shambling as it was, could have handily won the war with Japan despite all the naval losses, and the Japanese mistake was in thinking that the horrific internal unrest that made Russia give up instead of shrugging and grinding Japan down would somehow magically happen in the US, too.
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Mar 25, 2016 17:40
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Well, one of the problems with crazy militarist governments like the Nazis and the Imperial Japanese is that they're structurally and ideologically unable to accurately assess their enemies. Everyone else is always a decadent inferior who will obviously crumble before your incredible will to victory and power.
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Mar 25, 2016 17:42
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Dalael posted:No, I had not heard of that before. I know very little about that time period in history but I will definitely read about it now. It seems pretty interesting. It really is. Japan is the only East Asian nation that successfully made the transition to the "Modern" era and was never colonized. In fact, they colonized others (Okinawa and Korea).
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Mar 25, 2016 18:28
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Dalael posted:No, I had not heard of that before. I know very little about that time period in history but I will definitely read about it now. It seems pretty interesting. Not naval based, but Japan tried to bully the Russians in the 1930s and got their poo poo pushed in, which helps explain why they weren't keen the help out their German allies against them in WWII: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet%E2%80%93Japanese_border_conflicts
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Mar 25, 2016 18:41
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Japanese History (like just about every people/region's history) is extremely interesting once you get into it.
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Mar 25, 2016 18:41
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