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namaste friends
Sep 18, 2004

by Smythe
The truth is, big ears teddy likes to bang uggos

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MA-Horus
Dec 3, 2006

I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of how awesome I am.

Cultural Imperial posted:

The truth is, big ears teddy likes to bang uggos

You're a piece of poo poo.

Gonna remind you of this every time you comment on this.

namaste friends
Sep 18, 2004

by Smythe
Really

These dumb bitches told big ears teddy after getting beat up that they wanted more and then had the temerity to try and pass their encounters off as assault.

Sorry but we should be vilifying these retarded sluts for the damage they've done against true victims of assault.

MA-Horus
Dec 3, 2006

I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of how awesome I am.

Cultural Imperial posted:

Really

These dumb bitches told big ears teddy after getting beat up that they wanted more and then had the temerity to try and pass their encounters off as assault.

Sorry but we should be vilifying these retarded sluts for the damage they've done against true victims of assault.

You're a piece of poo poo.

namaste friends
Sep 18, 2004

by Smythe
You can read this testimony in oh like everywhere for yourself. Don't take my word for it.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

Precambrian Video Games
Aug 19, 2002



JVNO posted:

You know he just bails when backed into a corner right? This call out is futile.

Of all the poo poo posters in this thread he is unequivocally the worst, because he's poo poo posting in sincerity.

Every once in a while he comes back to write a two or three paragraph long "effortpost". I just hope people remember his propensity for making poo poo up and lying outright the next time he vomits out one of those obfuscated screeds on business/finance, where he claims to have some actual expertise.

ARACHTION
Mar 10, 2012

eXXon posted:

Every once in a while he comes back to write a two or three paragraph long "effortpost". I just hope people remember his propensity for making poo poo up and lying outright the next time he vomits out one of those obfuscated screeds on business/finance, where he claims to have some actual expertise.

Every time I read his posts, I realize it's him/her when I've gotten through 3/4's of it and didn't understand a loving word.

MA-Horus
Dec 3, 2006

I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of how awesome I am.

Cultural Imperial posted:

You can read this testimony in oh like everywhere for yourself. Don't take my word for it.

You're still a piece of poo poo.

vyelkin
Jan 2, 2011

eXXon posted:

Every once in a while he comes back to write a two or three paragraph long "effortpost". I just hope people remember his propensity for making poo poo up and lying outright the next time he vomits out one of those obfuscated screeds on business/finance, where he claims to have some actual expertise.

Never forget that he claimed to be a Conservative insider and once said he would have his legal counsel check something.

Eox
Jun 20, 2010

by Fluffdaddy
His legal counsel consists of saying "Common Law" three times in front of a mirror with the lights off

ARACHTION
Mar 10, 2012

Eox posted:

His legal counsel consists of saying "Common Law" three times in front of a mirror with the lights off

Actually lol'd at this one.

bunnyofdoom
Mar 29, 2008

I've been here the whole time, and you're not my real Dad! :emo:
Ah Hal. The poster who, by comparison, makes my posts good, nonpartisan and factual

Newfie
Oct 8, 2013

10 years of oil boom and 20 billion dollars cash, all I got was a case of beer, a pack of smokes, and 14% unemployment.
Thanks, Danny.

bunnyofdoom posted:

Ah Hal. The poster who, by comparison, makes my posts good, nonpartisan and factual

Hal is the perfect wingman. He is the Isis to poo poo posting al qaeda. Hal comes along to put everyone else into perspective and make us think "wow, this post is bad but not Hal bad" and for that we should thank him.

apatheticman
May 13, 2003

Wedge Regret
I too am surprised that the motherfucker that typed SJWs like it was a verbal tick has lovely opinions with regards to women and rape trials.

Illavick
Sep 15, 2012

WHENA MINA RENA VATIVE

MA-Horus posted:

You're still a piece of poo poo.

gently caress off pussy.

Ambrose Burnside
Aug 30, 2007

pensive

cowofwar posted:

Every angry social media article begins with the assumption that Gomeshi is guilty and the complainants were assaulted and being wholly truthful and that the acquittal was a rejection of the complainants' allegations.

Judge was simply not convinced beyond a reasonable doubt. Their testimony was a joke and they sunk their own case by loving around.

i mean. its an extremely safe assumption, outside of a courtroom where such a determination carries serious and very concrete consequences, that ghomeshi is a loving rapist and that the complainants were in fact assaulted

MA-Horus
Dec 3, 2006

I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of how awesome I am.

Illavick posted:

gently caress off pussy.

Nope, think I'll call him out on this subject until he stops talking about it.

Do you share his opinions on victims of violence?

HackensackBackpack
Aug 20, 2007

Who needs a house out in Hackensack? Is that all you get for your money?
Ghomeshi has another sexual assault trial in June. This one is over his apparent groping of a coworker at the CBC.

There's a chance he may still be convicted on that one, which I think would get him 18 months, at most. It certainly isn't has heavy as the potential life sentence he faced with the choking charge.

flakeloaf
Feb 26, 2003

Still better than android clock

If she lies on the stand I will laugh until I'm crosseyed.

bunnyofdoom
Mar 29, 2008

I've been here the whole time, and you're not my real Dad! :emo:
Ontario launches free legal advice program for sex assault survivors Pilot program in Ottawa, Toronto and Thunder Bay, giving 4 hours of free legal advice.

EvilJoven
Mar 18, 2005

NOBODY,IN THE HISTORY OF EVER, HAS ASKED OR CARED WHAT CANADA THINKS. YOU ARE NOT A COUNTRY. YOUR MONEY HAS THE QUEEN OF ENGLAND ON IT. IF YOU DIG AROUND IN YOUR BACKYARD, NATIVE SKELETONS WOULD EXPLODE OUT OF YOUR LAWN LIKE THE END OF POLTERGEIST. CANADA IS SO POLITE, EH?
Fun Shoe
"Don't commit perjury." - PM Selfie & Company

RBC
Nov 23, 2007

IM STILL SPENDING MONEY FROM 1888
yeah there's a big difference between lying and not remembering or misremembering things that happened a decade ago

EngineerJoe
Aug 8, 2004
-=whore=-



Didn't the witnesses collude to make sure their testimony matched?

Postess with the Mostest
Apr 4, 2007

Arabian nights
'neath Arabian moons
A fool off his guard
could fall and fall hard
out there on the dunes

RBC posted:

yeah there's a big difference between lying and not remembering or misremembering things that happened a decade ago

How many dudes have you given handjobs to and forgotten about?

RBC
Nov 23, 2007

IM STILL SPENDING MONEY FROM 1888

Ikantski posted:

How many dudes have you given handjobs to and forgotten about?

How many times have you made up being choked by your boyfriend?

flakeloaf
Feb 26, 2003

Still better than android clock

RBC posted:

yeah there's a big difference between lying and not remembering or misremembering things that happened a decade ago

"I don't remember" = guilty
"I specifically remember this thing that I can't possibly know because a) it's false and b) that's what the other witnesses and I colluded to say even though I just finished swearing we didn't collude" = not guilty

It's real easy.

Postess with the Mostest
Apr 4, 2007

Arabian nights
'neath Arabian moons
A fool off his guard
could fall and fall hard
out there on the dunes

RBC posted:

How many times have you made up being choked by your boyfriend?

Sorry can't talk about it until 12 years after

Reince Penis
Nov 15, 2007

by R. Guyovich
Ok gas this thread this is getting ugly

namaste friends
Sep 18, 2004

by Smythe

PK loving SUBBAN posted:

Ok gas this thread this is getting ugly

Canadians being Canadians

velvet milkman
Feb 13, 2012

by R. Guyovich
Shad is a bad radio host

flakeloaf
Feb 26, 2003

Still better than android clock

Trees and Squids posted:

Shad is a bad radio host

Yeah that's real interesting but shut up for a minute I wanna tell a story about me!

bunnyofdoom
Mar 29, 2008

I've been here the whole time, and you're not my real Dad! :emo:

PK loving SUBBAN posted:

Ok gas this thread this is getting ugly

seriously. :gas:

Entropic
Feb 21, 2007

patriarchy sucks
Shad is a painfully dull host and they definitely picked the wrong guy in their desperate search for any competent non-molester able to make a long-term commitment at a moment's notice.

Piya Chattopadhyay always does a better job when she's guest hosting Q (sorry, I mean q) than Shad does as the real host, they should've picked her.

Dreylad
Jun 19, 2001

eXXon posted:

Every once in a while he comes back to write a two or three paragraph long "effortpost". I just hope people remember his propensity for making poo poo up and lying outright the next time he vomits out one of those obfuscated screeds on business/finance, where he claims to have some actual expertise.

Leave CanPol's Tay alone.

For the rest of this, human memory is pretty fallible especially as time passes. You can use that as a reason to condemn these women or empathize with them, or both.

Syfe
Jun 12, 2006


bunnyofdoom posted:

Ontario launches free legal advice program for sex assault survivors Pilot program in Ottawa, Toronto and Thunder Bay, giving 4 hours of free legal advice.

Being from Thunder Bay (though, not currently living there), I'm both surprised to see that on the list and yet not. One, it's really small compared to the other too, and also incredibly isolated, but uh, it's also still Thunder Bay, I'm so used to us being either excluded or just forgotten.*




(* it's probably because it's the largest northwestern city and they want to cover the whole province)

vyelkin
Jan 2, 2011
This thread has gotten way off the rails. Instead of gassing it, let's just try and move away from unproductive Ghomeshi-chat. How about some articles on the new budget?

quote:

Unbalanced budget: Does it show 'prudence' or a 'nightmare scenario'?
Finance minister defends budget's long-term strategy while Tory leader wonders if Liberals have a 'road map'
By Katharine Starr, CBC News

The Liberals' first federal budget may be a $30-billion bet that big spending will lead to big growth, but Finance Minister Bill Morneau feels confident that taking the risk will stimulate the economy and pay off in the long term.

"When you think of it as spending, I'm really not on the same page. I think of it as an investment in the future," Morneau told host Chris Hall in an interview on CBC Radio's The House.

"Yes, we're making investments that are going to make a difference, and yes, some of them are going to be continuing, but it's going to get us to a higher growth rate."

Morneau's budget predicts deficits over the next five years and beyond to finance a new tax-free monthly child benefit, more money for First Nations, infrastructure spending and extended employment insurance benefits to hard-hit regions.

But he maintains that spending for stimulus can be done in a fiscally prudent way, and that balancing the books remains the ultimate objective.

"Balancing the budget matters because over the long term, we need to live within our means. With the growth that we're anticipating, in about five years we should be able to get back into balanced budgets," he said.

But there's a caveat, Morneau added.

"That's not a precise estimate, because we are aiming to increase growth in order to get there. We believe it's the right thing to do."

Procurement to promote innovation

One of the ways the government will try to stimulate growth will be to focus on innovation. Part of the Liberals' strategy to strengthen the innovation sector will be for Ottawa to deal more with Canadian entrepreneurs, according Navdeep Bains, the minister of innovation, science and economic development.

"How do we use government procurement?" Bains told The House in a separate interview.

"If there's a good idea, if there's a small company in Canada, if there's an entrepreneur that has an idea, I think the government should do business with that person. Because when that person goes abroad, wants to go global or deal with other businesses, they always ask the question: Are you doing business with the government?"

Bains also said that the Liberals listened to entrepreneurs when they chose to disregard an election promise to increase taxation of stock options.

"We're not proceeding with the changes to stock options," he said.

"It's something that we realized from our conversations, in terms of growing the economy, it is a legitimate vehicle and means to be able to help companies start up and grow."

Tories call budget a 'nightmare scenario'

Interim Conservative Leader Rona Ambrose says she doesn't buy that explanation, nor is she happy with the choice to keep the small business tax rate at 10.5 per cent, calling the 2016 budget a "nightmare scenario" for Canadian taxpayers and small business owners.

"[The Liberals] broke that promise to small businesses. Now if you couple that with the EI increases and CPP payroll increases, this is a hit to small businesses," Ambrose said on The House.

She pointed to the loss of tax credits like the child fitness tax credit as well as the rolling back of the Conservatives' increase for tax free savings account limits as additional tax hikes for Canadians.

Morneau defended his decision to back away from the campaign promise to lower the small business tax rate to nine per cent.

"What we believe is the thing that a small business needs most is a strong and growing economy," he said.

"I'm someone who has spent a career in business, and when a businessperson wakes up in the morning, they're worried about a growing economy so they can have the opportunity for their business."


Morneau also refused to speculate on whether his government would potentially cut the tax rate at some point over the rest of the mandate.

"We are going to each year put forth a budget that reflects our view of where the economy is at that particular time," he said.

"We are proud of what we did this year, and that's where we're at."

Road map to getting back to balance?

Ambrose said the 2016 budget doesn't have a clear road map showing how the government will get back to balance.

"[Morneau] says five years, but there isn't actually a plan showing, OK, this is where we're going to save, this is how we're going to do it, this is the plan to get back to a balanced budget, and that's important because what it signals to everyone is that taxes won't go up any further."

Ambrose added she's concerned about other "big ticket items" the Liberals promised — but that didn't show up in the budget.

"If those promises — like a health-care accord — aren't in there, how much more will taxes have to go up to make sure [the Liberals] can actually implement those promises? A balanced budget just seems like a fantasy right now."

NDP question prudence of budget

NDP Leader Tom Mulcair shocked Canadians during the election campaign when he promised four straight years of balanced budgets if elected.

He told Hall the NDP would have sought to balance the budget by looking to increase revenue with corporate tax hikes, while still being able to offer universal pharmacare and child care.

"I think the smart way to ensure the long-term stability of your social programs is to make sure everyone pays their fair share of taxes, including corporations," Mulcair said.

"You don't hesitate to go into debt if the situation requires, but as a general rule, the best way to ensure those programs are there long term is to be a good prudent public administrator."


It's the question of prudence that Morneau himself keeps coming back to, saying the Liberal fiscal brand — previously defined by former prime minister Paul Martin's balanced budgets as finance minister in the 1990s — remains the same.

"We are going to maintain a level of prudence, and that is something I will be watching for during my time in this role, but we're recognizing that right now, Canadians asked us to invest in the economy. That's what we're going to do."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/the-house-federal-budget-opposition-1.3506789

The above article is noteworthy for its complete lack of questioning the orthodox assumption that balanced budgets are a necessary and fundamental thing that government should always strive for, though to be fair to the journalist who wrote it, all the politicians she was writing about go on at length about the importance of balanced budgets. Morneau says this is just a temporary thing and the goal is to balance the budget off stronger growth. Ambrose says the goal is to balance the budget through austerity. And Mulcair says the goal is to balance the budget through taxing corporations (while also doubling down on his "we're politicians just like everyone else but we are prudent administrators also" schtick). But there's no actual detailed discussion of why a structural surplus or deficit is a good or bad thing, or how a structural surplus can become an annual deficit (and vice versa) because of temporary conditions. Instead, this article just takes the "balanced budget = good" approach that's so common to our media and runs with it.

Let's see if this other article can maybe address the issue though.

quote:

World watching as Canada casts aside austerity and gambles on a fiscal surge
A global economic debate plays out in Canada as our government goes from miser to spendthrift
By Don Pittis, CBC News

Canada has abruptly switched sides in one of the perennial political and economic battles over how to restart a sagging economy.

To put it in a way that would not please either side, it is the contest between the misers and the spendthrifts. After years of the penny-pinching approach, Canada has switched tack to become a big spender.

And despite some very strong feelings on either side, it is not absolutely clear which is the right path to prosperity. The world will be watching.

The clash over the best way to boost a moribund economy is by no means solely a Canadian argument. Nor is it just a modern debate.

Historical debate

Countries from China and Japan, to Greece and Ireland have taken different views on the subject.

Historically, the dispute has arisen repeatedly — notably during the Great Depression, when the first response of austerity was blamed for making the problem worse. But when governments then altered strategy, new spending failed to lead to a miracle recovery.

There is plenty of evidence on both sides. As I noted back in 2010, Japan and Ireland backed opposing strategies. But the countries' circumstances are so different it is hard to declare a definitive winner.

China and Greece switched sides. Greece was driven by the ballot box toward bigger spending, then restrained by their stern European central bankers. China faced alternating worries, first cutting back on fears of overheating and then suddenly spurring new spending on fears of falling growth.

Canada is a special case. It's an example of a country that, following an election, consciously changed from one strategy to the other when they tossed out the Conservative government of Stephen Harper and elected the Liberals under Justin Trudeau.

"This budget is a nightmare scenario for taxpayers who will be forced to pick up the tab for today's Liberal spending spree," said Harper's interim replacement as party leader, Rona Ambrose.

Ambrose and her Conservatives still back what you might call the Irish model. During their 10 years in power, the Harper government cut taxes, both for business and for the population at large. And with revenues depleted by tax cuts, it began paring down government spending to make expenditures match income.

Austerity's intuitive appeal

The austerity argument has a lot of intuitive appeal. If your family gets into financial trouble, the wisest strategy is to hunker down, cut back on spending and get everyone out looking for work.

Besides the analogy to family finances, another argument — once called liberal or neo-liberal, now usually known as conservative — says the best way for governments to solve economic problems is to get out of the way and let the forces of business and market economics find a solution.

As with any real-life economics, doing double-blind tests to discover the truth doesn't work. In Canada, the strategy of government austerity and business-led recovery did not have a good result, although things may have been different if had been tried at a different time.

As it was, the private-sector economy — spurred by tax breaks and directed by market forces — poured the country's wealth and human capital into a resources boom just as the boom turned to bust.


Private-sector investment in the economy began to dry up.

In Tuesday's budget speech marking the change of direction, Finance Minister Bill Morneau harked back to an earlier time.

"After the dark days of the Great Depression and the Second World War, Canadians believed the future could be brighter," he said, pointing out that post-war government spending on roads, shipping and communication systems made the economy grow and prosper.

Perhaps so, but most economists say the recovery from the Great Depression was not based on insipid attempts to boost peacetime spending, but the massive borrowing and spending boom of the global war effort itself. It was a simultaneous mixture of personal austerity and government spending on the war machine.

Post-war comparison

It is not at all clear that the near $30-billion deficit, and the $120 billion worth of infrastructure spending promised over the coming years, large as they seem, are enough to restart the country's economic engine in a similar way.

It is also not obvious that the new strategy will have the same effect as the "Greatest Generation" returning from war to rebuild the country after some 15 years of consumer privation.

But compared to the techniques other countries have tried in attempting to push their economies back into growth, it is not so crazy.

Monetary policy has not proved itself. There are growing fears that negative interest rates create new dangers.

Reports in the foreign press — from those that noticed — are mildly supportive of the switch. Economics columnists have frequently recommended fiscal stimulus, and even cash handouts called helicopter money, to break Europe out of a cycle of deflation and negative real interest rates.

Just like the business-led austerity plan that came before, the new strategy is a living experiment with Canadians as the laboratory rats. Just as in the previous experiment, the results may depend on many outside factors beyond the current government's control.

If it works, Trudeau and his finance minister will be heralded for their genius. If it doesn't, there will be no shortage of people ready to say "I told you so."


http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/canada-budget-austerity-vs-spending-1.3503968

Don Pitts is growing self-aware, people. Aside from the completely unquestioned remark about household budgets (:barf:) he at least acknowledges that Canada tried austerity over the past few years and it didn't work to spur growth, and also that Canada's private sector is stupid and bad at investing money to improve the long-term economy, as shown by their dumping all their money into resource extraction (if only he would have mentioned housing we could have had a double whammy). But at the end, after a significant amount of waffling back and forth over "well different countries have tried different approaches and who's to say if anything works, but BY THE WAY *~economists~* say austerity is the poo poo you guys" he acknowledges that monetary policy has reached the limit of its usefulness, fiscal stimulus is needed, and also that we live in a global economy where, let's be honest, Canada has much less control over the state of our economy than we might like to pretend we do.

Dallan Invictus
Oct 11, 2007

The thing about words is that meanings can twist just like a snake, and if you want to find snakes, look for them behind words that have changed their meaning.
edit: sorry vyelkin, you're right I'll try not to contribute to the Ghomeshi derail: as a lawyer this whole situation is just one long multifaceted nightmare and I'm better off forgetting it.

The Pittis article is definitely as much acknowledgement that Maybe The Keynesians Are Onto Something as I expected to see in what I will with gritted teeth call "the mainstream media", but I have to admit that I'm utterly at a loss for what the "n-word" in "once called liberal or n-word" might be.

Dallan Invictus fucked around with this message at 17:19 on Mar 26, 2016

velvet milkman
Feb 13, 2012

by R. Guyovich

Dallan Invictus posted:

edit: sorry vyelkin, you're right I'll try not to contribute to the Ghomeshi derail: as a lawyer this whole situation is just one long multifaceted nightmare and I'm better off forgetting it.

The Pittis article is definitely as much acknowledgement that Maybe The Keynesians Are Onto Something as I expected to see in what I will with gritted teeth call "the mainstream media", but I have to admit that I'm utterly at a loss for what the "n-word" in "once called liberal or n-word" might be.

That threw me off too, but there's just a word filter on neo liberal

neoliberal

velvet milkman fucked around with this message at 21:24 on Mar 26, 2016

Helsing
Aug 23, 2003

DON'T POST IN THE ELECTION THREAD UNLESS YOU :love::love::love: JOE BIDEN
Threads quiet today so I'm gonna go ahead and rant into the wind. Today's subject is Keynesianism :argh:

vyelkin posted:

This thread has gotten way off the rails. Instead of gassing it, let's just try and move away from unproductive Ghomeshi-chat. How about some articles on the new budget?

quote:

One of the ways the government will try to stimulate growth will be to focus on innovation. Part of the Liberals' strategy to strengthen the innovation sector will be for Ottawa to deal more with Canadian entrepreneurs, according Navdeep Bains, the minister of innovation, science and economic development.

"How do we use government procurement?" Bains told The House in a separate interview.

"If there's a good idea, if there's a small company in Canada, if there's an entrepreneur that has an idea, I think the government should do business with that person. Because when that person goes abroad, wants to go global or deal with other businesses, they always ask the question: Are you doing business with the government?"


Hey, great idea Bains. Too bad the TPP, an agreement your party just signed, will make this kind of favoritism in government procurement illegal. :downsgun:

quote:

Don Pitts is growing self-aware, people. Aside from the completely unquestioned remark about household budgets (:barf:) he at least acknowledges that Canada tried austerity over the past few years and it didn't work to spur growth, and also that Canada's private sector is stupid and bad at investing money to improve the long-term economy, as shown by their dumping all their money into resource extraction (if only he would have mentioned housing we could have had a double whammy). But at the end, after a significant amount of waffling back and forth over "well different countries have tried different approaches and who's to say if anything works, but BY THE WAY *~economists~* say austerity is the poo poo you guys" he acknowledges that monetary policy has reached the limit of its usefulness, fiscal stimulus is needed, and also that we live in a global economy where, let's be honest, Canada has much less control over the state of our economy than we might like to pretend we do.

Sadly, what we think of as "Keynesianism" is almost as intellectually bankrupt as the economic case for so called "expansionary austerity" (i.e. the idea that you can cut your way to prosperity, essentially stimulating business confidence or lowering long term interest rates by reducing the government's deficit and debt load). Most progressives don't seem to realize that the Keynesian "multiplier" (the idea that a dollar of government spending during a crisis will result in more than one dollar of private sector activity, so that government spending stimulates the economy while essentially paying for itself in the long run) is almost entirely a product of economic theory. Evidence for the existence of the multiplier, especially outside the depths of an economic crisis, is limited at best. And most of the 'evidence' comes from a lot of interpretation of economic data, so it's very far removed from the kind of straight forward empirical testing that you'd encounter in the hard sciences. This isn't to say that the idea of the multiplier is total bunk: I find the idea fairly intuitive under many circumstances. But it needs to be understood that it's a highly theoretical assertion supported primarily by indirect evidence and the intuition of economists.

The supposed historical confirmation of Keynesinism during the 30s and 40s is heavily distorted. Governments never spent as much money as Keynes thought they should spend (FDR was obsessed with balanced budgets for most of his time in office), and the Great Depression didn't end until the Second World War.

Keynesians will claim this as vindication: the government finally started spending more money after 1939 and the economy recovered, just like Keynes predicted! But actually what Keynes had predicted was that it shouldn't matter how the money is injected into the economy. Keynes famously suggested that the government could stimulate economic activity by burying glass bottles filled with bank notes and letting private companies dig the bank notes up again. In essence, Keynes argument was that the structure of the economy was, for the most part, completely fine and completely unrelated to the Great Depression. The Depression was, in essence, caused by a technical glitch that could largely be solved by higher government spending.For Keynes, it didn't really matter how government money was spent, what mattered was just that it somehow got into the larger economy.

This is not what happened during World War II, so World War II cannot be taken as a vindication of this story. What happened during the war was a sweeping reorganization of government. Millions of men forcibly removed from the labour market through conscription, massive government meddling in wages and prices, government enforced mandates to ration some resources while massively increasing the production of others, top down coordination of economic activities, etc. In essence the western powers adopted a sort of "war socialism" in partnership with private enterprise.

The point here being that the during the 30s, 40s and early 50s the economic institutions of the Atlantic countries were dramatically reworked, with significant redistribution of not only wealth but also power, significant government regulation of incomes and prices, the legitimization of unions, and the government taking on a new and (at the time what were thought to be) permanent role as the provider of essential services such as affordable housing and, in many countries, healthcare, welfare, etc. This goes so far beyond anything Keynes had advocated that it's ludicrous to call the resulting prosperity a vindication of Keynes' theory.

Keynesianism was adopted (in a heavily modified form that arguably owes more to a man named Sir John Hicks, whose 1939 book "Value and Capital" reworked vaguely Keynesian ideas into a general-equilibirum model that could then be integrated into the neoclassical economic paradigm) as a sort of ideological justification for this massive expansion of government power and responsibilities. But other than some negative comments about the power of finance Keynes didn't really talk all that much about reforming the institutions of pre-war capitalism. His emphasis was on counter cyclical spending as an alternative to structural reform. This is doubly ironic because, as many conservative commentators have noted, governments that supposedly adopted Keynesian fiscal policies have never actually spent in a true counter-cyclical fashion. Instead we can see how government spending goes up in some decades, largely due to pressure from various organized interests, and then falls in other decades, again mostly due to political debates between various organized interests. So here in Canada government spending rose in the 60s and 70s when there were strong and well organized groups lobbying for more spending, and government spending then fell in the 90s when businesses and ideological conservatives began to call for a reduction. At no point in our post war history has anyone engaged in actual Keynesian policy: we just use Keynesian rhetoric to justify spending priorities that are largely determined by special interests and/or popular pressure.

The point of this little rant being this: the government can turn on the spigots and spend lots of money, but that isn't going to help anything unless that money is spent intelligently. The great innovation of the mid-20th century wasn't Keynesian spending, it was embedding markets and other forms of commerce within a thick institutional layering which forced wealthy individuals and private businesses to give up a larger share of the economic pie. This system was mostly founded on universal or broadly focused programs, in particular various forms of social insurance, and welfare. It was guaranteed by, among other things, a strong labour movement which the government brought onside with various concessions.

We shouldn't slip into seeing this as a golden age. And we shouldn't fool ourselves into thinking we could simply resurrect the post-war "embedded liberal" state wholesale and transplant it into the 21st century. But we could at least try to intelligently understand what actually happened during that period, and why it was so economically different from our current precarious time period.

This is also why, despite all the flaws with the NDP, and despite the fact that I'm glad the Liberals didn't pivot immediately to austerity, I still think Mulcair's plan -- with all its huge flaws -- was vastly superior to the Liberals' proposal. Despite its inadequacies the NDP's call for national daycare was a call for the government to once again construct the kind of universally available government programs that were instrumental to the construction of the old welfare state. The Liberal's critique of the daycare program -- that it would be equally accessible to the poor and the rich alike -- was it's greatest strength.

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Wistful of Dollars
Aug 25, 2009

vyelkin posted:

This thread has gotten way off the rails. Instead of gassing it, let's just try and move away from unproductive Ghomeshi-chat. How about some articles on the new budget?


The above article is noteworthy for its complete lack of questioning the orthodox assumption that balanced budgets are a necessary and fundamental thing that government should always strive for, though to be fair to the journalist who wrote it, all the politicians she was writing about go on at length about the importance of balanced budgets. Morneau says this is just a temporary thing and the goal is to balance the budget off stronger growth. Ambrose says the goal is to balance the budget through austerity. And Mulcair says the goal is to balance the budget through taxing corporations (while also doubling down on his "we're politicians just like everyone else but we are prudent administrators also" schtick). But there's no actual detailed discussion of why a structural surplus or deficit is a good or bad thing, or how a structural surplus can become an annual deficit (and vice versa) because of temporary conditions. Instead, this article just takes the "balanced budget = good" approach that's so common to our media and runs with it.


I was disappointed listening; there was plenty to take them all to task for and Hall didn't do it.

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