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Darth Walrus posted:You seen the videos coming out of Yemen in 2009 and 2015? Pampered Saudi royalty with twenty-first-century equipment and (what might be politely described as) nineteenth-century tactics getting slaughtered by smart, ruthless, lightly-equipped guerrilla fighters? Never underestimate how badly nepotism, corruption, and extended unreadiness can cripple a military's competence. Carta's parade-ground formations and silly pose-offs are practically ripped from the headlines. Tekkadan is ISIS, or maybe the Yemenis. There are probably some parallels to be drawn, intentionally or otherwise, about a ragtag bunch of young soldiers in an arid region that has been ruthlessly exploited by distant powers who take their second-rate and otherwise poorly-maintained equipment and smash the foreign occupying force in order to establish their vision of a good life for themselves and like-minded people.. Occasionally they capture some better equipment from the other side, and they receive financial backing from a number of sources domestic, foreign, and some ostensible adversaries. They even recruited some sympathetic fighters to their cause in one instance. And now they're taking the battle to the capital city of one of their foreign oppressors. RAISE YOUR FLAG  EDIT: I still like the show and am still cheering for them, but that interpretation is there if you want to SMG it up. Midjack fucked around with this message at 16:38 on Mar 26, 2016 |
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Mar 26, 2016 16:34
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Until Tekkadan starts murdering people for homosexuality, that's a pretty loving stupid comparison
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Mar 26, 2016 16:51
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Midjack posted:EDIT: I still like the show and am still cheering for them, but that interpretation is there if you want to SMG it up. You can literally make any poo poo up and that would be SMGing it
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Mar 26, 2016 16:53
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mr. stefan posted:Intent does not equal success. I agree on principle and I think a lot about IBO is debatable on that regard, but I would say Carta is a successful case. At first she's this goofy team rocket lady, then the show makes you want to see her die, then when you get your wish she suffers one of the worst deaths in the franchise since Victory.
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Mar 26, 2016 17:13
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boom boom boom posted:Until Tekkadan starts murdering people for homosexuality, that's a pretty loving stupid comparison
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Mar 26, 2016 17:42
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Midjack posted:They have straight up executed people. Semantically they're nothing alike but syntactically they're hitting a lot of the same beats. Translation for anyone who didn't want to Google that like I just did - the actions are similar, even if the meaning and reasons are different.
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Mar 26, 2016 17:49
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Darth Walrus posted:Translation for anyone who didn't want to Google that like I just did - the actions are similar, even if the meaning and reasons are different.  No Tekkadan is ISIS.
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Mar 26, 2016 18:04
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Mar 26, 2016 18:06
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Midjack posted:They have straight up executed people. Semantically they're nothing alike but syntactically they'rge hitting a lot of the same beats. ISIS is literally committing genocide. This a ridiculous comparison.
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Mar 26, 2016 18:19
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Fat and Useless posted:
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Mar 26, 2016 18:34
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Fat and Useless posted:
lmao also this show is a solid 8/10 imo
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Mar 26, 2016 18:50
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oohhboy posted:I think you are mistaking poor writing for moral ambiguity. I don't think I am, because moral ambiguity has little to do with quality of writing. I don't really agree that there's much ambiguity in IBO either, outside of maybe McGillis' true allegiances at this point. The show has been pretty blatant about Tekkdan's actions being wrong and ultimately pointlessly destructive. Raxivace fucked around with this message at 19:01 on Mar 26, 2016 |
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Mar 26, 2016 18:52
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Please do not turn this into a D&D thread unless it involves rolling for initiative, thank you.
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Mar 26, 2016 19:24
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Quick, stat the Barbatos for Mekton Zeta.
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Mar 26, 2016 19:35
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Raxivace posted:I don't think I am, because moral ambiguity has little to do with quality of writing. Well,the writing is bad regardless,so 
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Mar 26, 2016 20:04
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Midjack posted:Tekkadan is ISIS, or maybe the Yemenis. 
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Mar 26, 2016 20:26
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Bad Seafood posted:Please do not turn this into a D&D thread unless it involves rolling for initiative, thank you.
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Mar 26, 2016 21:26
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poo poo, sorry, wrong thread.
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Mar 26, 2016 22:20
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Well now. https://twitter.com/daisuki_net/status/713502788714508288
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Mar 26, 2016 22:32
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Raxivace posted:I don't think I am, because moral ambiguity has little to do with quality of writing. Are you serious, that's all you got? Good writing is absolutely necessary moral ambiguity as it has to believable in universe and we have to get drawn in by it. We cheer on Tekkdan's violence from the beginning because they were right, then we start going deeper into the hole. They even justify their actions for us even as Mika shoots those dudes. As time goes on we are not as sure they are the good guys anymore, but we are so invested in them that we cheer Mika on while he slaughters some dudes standing outside their cockpits. Their cause is noble at least on the surface, but is it worth so many deaths and the big question is, did they get into a Faustian deal? The answer to that question is likely going to be left to the viewer. Some will say they are justified and heroic while will say otherwise and they will both be right. That's moral ambiguity. Remember Tekkdan doesn't know the outcome and neither do we, calling it wrong and ultimately pointlessly destructive at this point is factious. Once we know the outcomes, we are not allowed to retroactively apply this to all their actions no more than Tekkdan can go back and do things differently. Think about riots, are they right or wrong? Depends on which side you are on. Does a revolution or an attempt of one become justified based on the result? This is a part of the ambiguity IBO has. You don't have that in G-Reco, the Belleri is the designated Hero but due to piss poor writing there is no consistency to his actions nor does he take on any responsibility for his actions. He kills people for no god drat reason, he isn't even making a point, just welp I guess I kill people. I would say he is a bloody sociopath than someone who is under any moral strain. If he did nothing the ending would have barely changed where everyone just kills each other until the survivors limp away. Tekkdan on the other hand underpins every significant event they touched. Tekkdan is th spark that is setting off these powder kegs. Your position on the quality of writing being detached from moral ambiguity of the story is absurd.
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Mar 27, 2016 00:05
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Keep in mind that there's several Gundam things in the pipeline so this isn't a confirmation of anything IBO necessarily.
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Mar 27, 2016 00:08
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The news is maybe their app will work for once.
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Mar 27, 2016 00:10
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Well I mean apparently there was a screening already and people still dont know if its going to have a second part or not . But yeah I dont know if what they are saying is true or not 
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Mar 27, 2016 00:22
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oohhboy posted:Are you serious, that's all you got? Good writing is absolutely necessary moral ambiguity as it has to believable in universe and we have to get drawn in by it. We cheer on Tekkdan's violence from the beginning because they were right, then we start going deeper into the hole. They even justify their actions for us even as Mika shoots those dudes. As time goes on we are not as sure they are the good guys anymore, but we are so invested in them that we cheer Mika on while he slaughters some dudes standing outside their cockpits. Their cause is noble at least on the surface, but is it worth so many deaths and the big question is, did they get into a Faustian deal?
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Mar 27, 2016 01:13
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ImpAtom posted:Keep in mind that there's several Gundam things in the pipeline so this isn't a confirmation of anything IBO necessarily.
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Mar 27, 2016 02:11
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Mar 27, 2016 02:21
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oohhboy posted:Are you serious, that's all you got? Good writing is absolutely necessary moral ambiguity as it has to believable in universe and we have to get drawn in by it. We cheer on Tekkdan's violence from the beginning because they were right, then we start going deeper into the hole. They even justify their actions for us even as Mika shoots those dudes. As time goes on we are not as sure they are the good guys anymore, but we are so invested in them that we cheer Mika on while he slaughters some dudes standing outside their cockpits. Their cause is noble at least on the surface, but is it worth so many deaths and the big question is, did they get into a Faustian deal? Rambling, first-drafty thoughts on the moral position of Tekkadan, as we've seen, over the course of the series: For me, perhaps it's cynical, maybe even nihilistic, but Tekkadan's path feels a lot like "What did you expect was going to happen with the entrenched system and the pieces in play?" Like, Mars was driven to the point where rampant poverty and lack of social support systems result in massive homelessness, including a significant orphan population. Lack of regulations or laws against it allowed for legal child soldiers, including those who were literally bought for the purpose as war-slaves. Despite the social taboos against it, and the paradoxically lax and jackbooted oversight of the Mars branch of Gjallerhorn (my understanding is the branch does the bare minimum required and *then* if they notice a problem they try to crush it hard) Allaya-Vijyana tech was allowed to propogate to one of the major PMCs in the region. Incidentally, somehow that PMC was able to uncover one of your own lost goddamn supreme death machines that brought swift end to the Calamity War and helped cement your new world order with you guys on top as administers and martial force of an interplanetary police-state, structuring Earth into four economic blocs who each had some say over the space colonies (but really, you guys are the ones in charge). In the end, you have a system where children are trained for warfare, regularly abused by the system and the adults in their lives, get hosed over one too many times and oh hey they turn their weapons against the people and system that abused them. One of which is a Brain-Machine-Interface equipped death machine the likes of which has not been seen for hundreds of years, and most of those kids have the BMI ports neeeded to interface with the thing. Recently the show's taken the turn where Mika and Orga, and I forget if it was a few others, talking about how they have nothing to go back to. And they have a point: the social, legal and economic systems in place do not really have a place for the Tekkadan Kids, or others like them, in the Earth Sphere and related Colonies. The closest they've really come is becoming a Teiwaz subsidiary, but at the end of the day that still leaves you with a PMC that is mostly comprised of child soldiers and trainee soldiers. Assuming they act mostly doing caravan work between colonies, even legit work, you have groups like the Brewers (and I would assume they're not the only guild of space pirates in the solar system) which means you've got a bunch of kids trying to ferry cargo across interplanetary space without getting killed for the goods they're shipping, which means no matter what they're going to be locked in combat during what may otherwise seem like space trucking. Orga talked a lot about the need to make a reputation for themselves. Before, I thought about it just as the show addressed, that they need a reputation to get good jobs in the future for Tekkadan; as it stands, they're a bunch of kids and even with being under the Teiwaz umbrella might not be taken seriously. But thinking about it, the reason also follows that the reputation they're attempting to get may serve another purpose: If you're the guys who destabilized the hold Gjallerhorn held over human civilization and came out of that not just alive but with a decent number of Gjallerhorn pilots downed under your first job, who in their right mind is going to mess with you? These kids are also, to some degree, buying into the hope that Kudelia is promoting. She's talking about reforming the system that has, essentially, destroyed their lives and forced them into being child soldiers. Mika is a good example here, I think. He has no illusions about what he is: He's a killer and seems to have little problem with that. But it's not that he's that because it's what he wanted in life, but because of what he had to do to live. Prompted for what he'd do if he didn't have to be a Tekkadan soldier, he admits that he would like to be a farmer like Biscuit's grandmother. I don't think it's been touched on too much, but I would have to think the other Tekkadan kids have similar wishes for what they'd like to do if they didn't have to be soldiers. I think that's a lot of what it means to them talking about there being nothing to go back to: their only choices are the warfare of the present or barreling through with the hope of creating a better future for themselves. The themes even back this up to a degree as well: Raise your Flag quote:"Under pressure you are waiting for direction Survivor quote:"We've taken the long way around, but now's the time - all our futures have fallen into place!Taking one another's hands, we'll crawl the Earth and stand in opposition! Orphans no Namida quote:"The only thing that remains after the battle is sorrow So trying to keep this ramble from going too long, to tie it back up, like you said: We cheered at first because we believed their cause was right, but now as things are going as they are: the kill counts are wracking up, Mika especially seems to becoming more and more numb to the number of lives he's taken, the younger kids feel like they have to witness the levels of brutality he's putting on display and Orga is sacrificing more and more of the kids that make up Tekkadan for what seems to be a slimmer and slimmer hope of what they set out for, as we're treated to the guy they've pinned their hopes on, Makanai, seeming more and more like he's just another powerbroker using them for his own gain. But the thing was, It feels like this was, ultimately, the end of that path they set out on all along. Tekkadan were child soldiers and the only options they had to affect change in the world was to use violence and warfare against the corrupted system that had essentially destroyed their lives and put them in this position to begin with. To a certain point, I think we look through it with a more "civilized" lens; I imagine most, if not all of us, posting in this thread live in democratic regimes; the system of change, while often slow and hard to budge, moving in the fits and starts of changing society and changing ideals, are changed typically through peaceful means. However, the Post-Calamity Earth sphere seems to not quite be such, at least so long as you're living anywhere other than the elite of earth. Near-Earth colonies, like the Dorts, exist as a liminal space between the elites and exploited masses, while the further you get out from the Earth, where Gjallerhorn still has control, that balance shifts further so that it's the majority that lives to be exploited for the sake of the few. [For a quick digression: this is probably one of the weaker parts of IBO in that, on Mars we didn't get as good a grasp of this as we could have; it seems that the majority of the planet's populace lives in some degree of poverty, while there are elite, sheltered and wealthy families like the Bernsteins, but we don't quite get what degree a middle class exists; the closest we came felt like the protestors standing around in their underwear with Free Mars slogans body painted all over; still we must assume that the situation must be dire to a significant degree for something like CGS/Tekkadan to exist] We view the actions of Tekkadan through our own culture, and we're horrified and I'd say rightly so to a degree, but at the same time I find it harder and harder to necessarily blame them any more for what they're doing, because I'm not really sure they have the choice not to unless they want to die in their mobile workers later in life instead of possibly right now. It's been mentioned before that Merribit provides a couple of roles in the show: She's a voice of reason, she's a voice of the writer but perhaps most of all, she's our insert. Merribit is the person from a more civilized world, where children get to be kids and grow up into adults with fulfilling lives and useful, perhaps humdrum, jobs; not strapped down to dingy metal tables, have advanced BMI grafted to their spines with no anaesthetic so they can be shoved into one-man-tanks to go get themselves killed for their PMC sponsor-owners while they're not being beaten for not patrolling right. As we saw in the middle of the show, these are kids who until recently didn't know how to read, despite a significant chunk of them being middle-school age. All they've been taugh is how to fight, how to stay alive on a battlefield, service war machines and how to kill in the battlefield. These aren't kids who are necessarily being heroic or villainous or anything like this. As the song says: They're just trying to survive the lovely lot they have in life and this is the only set of tools they've really been given to do so. And, ultimately, when you've got a bunch of kids whose only major skills are being child soldiers, this is what happens when they try to change the system.
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Mar 27, 2016 02:46
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I guess short version: Iron-Blooded Orphans exists in a poo poo-shack of a solar system where the protagonists only real options for affecting positive change is more or less a literal war of revolution against the powers that entrench the system that keeps things running as a shitshow. Also things are not going to have a happy ending, even if they accomplish their goal.
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Mar 27, 2016 03:02
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If in the end McGillis is the one to bring positive change to the solar system and Tekkadan and Kudelia end up just being patsies to further his goal I will be happy with the ending.
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Mar 27, 2016 03:35
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Try harder. Lanz did what I couldn't quite do. That empty space is how useful you are to the discussion.
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Mar 27, 2016 03:52
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oohhboy posted:Try harder. Lanz did what I couldn't quite do. That empty space is how useful you are to the discussion.
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Mar 27, 2016 03:54
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[/quote] Another wasted post.
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Mar 27, 2016 03:59
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So who else is excited to finally see the Grimgerde in action tomorrow? I really like how it's heat swords are a big fuckin deal in this universe, gives it a good edge without having to bring in beam weapons. Plus I really dig how they can swing around on the shield, I love the look of fixed swords/sabers like that
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Mar 27, 2016 04:05
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StalkofWheat posted:So who else is excited to finally see the Grimgerde in action tomorrow? I really like how it's heat swords are a big fuckin deal in this universe, gives it a good edge without having to bring in beam weapons. Plus I really dig how they can swing around on the shield, I love the look of fixed swords/sabers like that They're not heat swords, which is why they're the same colour when sheathed. They're just made of a special, ultra-hard alloy. Still cut real good, though.
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Mar 27, 2016 04:10
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oohhboy posted:Another wasted post. 
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Mar 27, 2016 04:23
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Darth Walrus posted:They're not heat swords, which is why they're the same colour when sheathed. They're just made of a special, ultra-hard alloy. Still cut real good, though. Huh, could have sworn I saw heat blades written somewhere. Either way it's probably one of my favorite suits in the series. I really hope we get an MSV at some point so we can see some of the other Valkyrie frames, along with a bunch of other Gundams
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Mar 27, 2016 04:25
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StalkofWheat posted:Huh, could have sworn I saw heat blades written somewhere. Either way it's probably one of my favorite suits in the series. I really hope we get an MSV at some point so we can see some of the other Valkyrie frames, along with a bunch of other Gundams I'm super surprised at the restraint someone at Bandai has had by only allowing four, technically three, Gundams to be in this show. Especially when there is a valid in universe reason for there to be potentially dozens of the things still running around.
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Mar 27, 2016 04:48
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Ethiser posted:I'm super surprised at the restraint someone at Bandai has had by only allowing four, technically three, Gundams to be in this show. Especially when there is a valid in universe reason for there to be potentially dozens of the things still running around. There were only three in G-Reco, too. Gundam Age only had four. And the upcoming Gundam series only has two
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Mar 27, 2016 05:05
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I wonder, the Ahab particles apparently interact with the Nanolaminate armor to make it so durable (which I suppose is part of why MS in IBO have parts exposed you normally don't see in Gundam series), I wonder if the melee weapons are effected in the same way?
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Mar 27, 2016 06:12
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'Sup Sharkopath. How have you been lately?
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Mar 27, 2016 09:00
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