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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:Here's a mockup of my suggested military symbology in a ready to use OOB! Stuckart is still alive?
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Mar 27, 2016 20:28
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Wiz posted:Seriously, it's fine if you guys prefer NATO counters, but assuming that everyone in the world will find 'box with line' the most intuitive representation of a cavalry unit is pretty silly. If they don't already, or aren't willing to learn, you shouldn't be making a game for them anyway 
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Mar 27, 2016 21:01
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I like counters. I understand if dumb normies don't, though. It's kinda hard to cram a clear icon into such a tiny space.
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Mar 27, 2016 21:08
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I'm not learning what a bunch of boxes and lines mean just to destroy computer fascists.
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Mar 27, 2016 21:09
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Epinephrine posted:Actually, if the horse icon is hard to read, why not just adopt the knight icon from chess? Of all proposed arguments, I like this one the best. It's abstract, but it's well-known enough to indicate "Yeah, that's horses!" Introduce a NATO counter DLC to CK2, please!
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Mar 27, 2016 21:11
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Yeah, this is a non-issue. If you want NATO counters because you're a military nerd, they're there. If you're like me and don't really care that much, I'm sure Paradox's counters will do a good job of 'glance at that, oh I recognize that icon it's supposed to be a horse, I know that's cavalry, I don't need to remember what's what'. Now if you want to make fun of Paradox's artistic skills, that's another thing, but don't flip the hell out because they're actually doing the right thing and giving both sides their favored options.
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Mar 27, 2016 21:16
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Empress Theonora posted:I'm not learning what a bunch of boxes and lines mean just to destroy computer fascists.
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Mar 27, 2016 21:17
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Yeah same I didn't bother to learn how trade worked in eu4 with all the centers of trade, trade steering, light ships, trade routes, upwards and downwards streams, trade value and power, trade goods, merchant bonuses, mercantilism, and all that garbage. Or how combat worked with discipline, morale, supplies, generals, fire and shock, artillery, choosing between different units, tech groups, cavalry penalty, terrain penalty, and all that useless poo poo. Since day one I've kept my head in the sand and just rolled all over the keyboard with my toes without bothering to understand what any of the numbers or symbols on the screen mean. Dunno why a dumb counter is where some of you nerds draw a line that can never be cross Also the horse looks like poo poo
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Mar 27, 2016 21:20
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Vanilla Mint Ice posted:Yeah same I didn't bother to learn how trade worked in eu4 with all the centers of trade, trade steering, light ships, trade routes, upwards and downwards streams, trade value and power, trade goods, merchant bonuses, mercantilism, and all that garbage. Or how combat worked with discipline, morale, supplies, generals, fire and shock, artillery, choosing between different units, tech groups, cavalry penalty, terrain penalty, and all that useless poo poo. Since day one I've kept my head in the sand and just rolled all over the keyboard with my toes without bothering to understand what any of the numbers or symbols on the screen mean. There's a difference between learning something because it is a game mechanic, and learning something because grognards on the internet get mad if their WW2 game does not force everyone to use NATO counters. Have you ever considered that you may care just a bit too much about NATO counters?
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Mar 27, 2016 21:22
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Sky Shadowing posted:Yeah, this is a non-issue. If you want NATO counters because you're a military nerd, they're there. If you're like me and don't really care that much, I'm sure Paradox's counters will do a good job of 'glance at that, oh I recognize that icon it's supposed to be a horse, I know that's cavalry, I don't need to remember what's what'. I can only imagine the comment section of streamers during the preview period. God help them if they don't use NATO counters. Wiz posted:There's a difference between learning something because it is a game mechanic, and learning something because grognards on the internet get mad if their WW2 game does not force everyone to use NATO counters. I still maintain that NATO symbols are the superior design, given their better readability and scalability.
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Mar 27, 2016 21:24
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I installed a mod for EU4 that removes the color coding from numbers(green = good, red = bad  ). This should have been in from the start but paradix had to cater to casuals as always.
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Mar 27, 2016 21:25
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GaussianCopula posted:I can only imagine the comment section of streamers during the preview period. God help them if they don't use NATO counters. Honestly, I'd almost be in favor of removing NATO counters from HOI4 just to spite the people who are physically incapable of shutting up about them.
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Mar 27, 2016 21:26
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I used to think counters were unintuitive garbage symbols for weird nerds, then I sort of learned them after playing Arma/Flashpoint and am ok with them and even prefer them in some cases. It's a minor matter of preference and it's weird people can get so upset and passionate about them when it's already fully optional so everyone should be happy.
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Mar 27, 2016 21:27
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Wiz posted:Honestly, I'd almost be in favor of removing NATO counters from HOI4 just to spite the people who are physically incapable of shutting up about them. Do you think that would improve the situation?
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Mar 27, 2016 21:28
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Wiz posted:Honestly, I'd almost be in favor of removing NATO counters from HOI4 just to spite the people who are physically incapable of shutting up about them. Preorder uncancelled.
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Mar 27, 2016 21:29
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GaussianCopula posted:Do you think that would improve the situation? Obviously not, but it'd be pretty funny. (The previous post was not 100% serious in case you couldn't tell)
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Mar 27, 2016 21:29
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Wiz posted:There's a difference between learning something because it is a game mechanic, and learning something because grognards on the internet get mad if their WW2 game does not force everyone to use NATO counters. Have you considered that I've played a single ww2 wargame in my life, pc or board (one of the bridge too far series) and you seem to be projecting a bit onto the general "you"? It seems petty and defensive to me that in a game where there will be a ton of information presented in every screen, with so many buttons and interactions possible from shift clicking to right clicking to oh mouseover this here and it tells you more information, a game where each weapon page has so many stats that my eyes just roll up and it all becomes meaningless; a rectangle with lines or circles in them is where you stand you ground, turn your nose up and say heh we may be nerds but we're not that nerdy. Get over it, who cares if someone wants to play with NATO counters
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Mar 27, 2016 21:29
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GaussianCopula posted:Do you think that would improve the situation? It would be funny.
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Mar 27, 2016 21:29
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GaussianCopula posted:I still maintain that NATO symbols are the superior design, given their better readability and scalability. True. I play these games from my couch with a gamepad and clear graphics help when you're squinting at a TV. I have some good times hanging with my bros yelling at the TV when we throw down some casus belli on some bitch rear end OPMs.
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Mar 27, 2016 21:30
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DrSunshine posted:Of all proposed arguments, I like this one the best. It's abstract, but it's well-known enough to indicate "Yeah, that's horses!" We do need to use the horse counter when Glitterhoof is commanding an army, at least. Vanilla Mint Ice posted:Have you considered that I've played a single ww2 wargame in my life, pc or board (one of the bridge too far series) and you seem to be projecting a bit onto the general "you"? It seems petty and defensive to me that in a game where there will be a ton of information presented in every screen, with so many buttons and interactions possible from shift clicking to right clicking to oh mouseover this here and it tells you more information, a game where each weapon page has so many stats that my eyes just roll up and it all becomes meaningless; a rectangle with lines or circles in them is where you stand you ground, turn your nose up and say heh we may be nerds but we're not that nerdy. Get over it, who cares if someone wants to play with NATO counters No one. No one cares if you want to use NATO counters, that's why we put the choice in. The only arguments against them are they are not perfect wonder-icons for true wargamers, the are not intuitive, and not everyone cares to learn them. Darkrenown fucked around with this message at 21:36 on Mar 27, 2016 |
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Mar 27, 2016 21:31
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Demiurge4 posted:It would be funny. Crushing nerds improves every situation.
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Mar 27, 2016 21:31
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Vanilla Mint Ice posted:Have you considered that I've played a single ww2 wargame in my life, pc or board (one of the bridge too far series) and you seem to be projecting a bit onto the general "you"? It seems petty and defensive to me that in a game where there will be a ton of information presented in every screen, with so many buttons and interactions possible from shift clicking to right clicking to oh mouseover this here and it tells you more information, a game where each weapon page has so many stats that my eyes just roll up and it all becomes meaningless; a rectangle with lines or circles in them is where you stand you ground, turn your nose up and say heh we may be nerds but we're not that nerdy. Get over it, who cares if someone wants to play with NATO counters I think this passionate plea finally convinced them, I just got the brand new information none of us knew that nato counters will now be in Hoi4 as an option. They're in, we won, we can put the topic to bed and sleep sound in victory over the vile casuals.
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Mar 27, 2016 21:32
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Vanilla Mint Ice posted:Have you considered that I've played a single ww2 wargame in my life, pc or board (one of the bridge too far series) and you seem to be projecting a bit onto the general "you"? It seems petty and defensive to me that in a game where there will be a ton of information presented in every screen, with so many buttons and interactions possible from shift clicking to right clicking to oh mouseover this here and it tells you more information, a game where each weapon page has so many stats that my eyes just roll up and it all becomes meaningless; a rectangle with lines or circles in them is where you stand you ground, turn your nose up and say heh we may be nerds but we're not that nerdy. Get over it, who cares if someone wants to play with NATO counters You're perfectly welcome to use NATO counters. This whole discussion started with a bunch of bitching about the fact that there is an alternative to NATO counters, which is what irritated me. If anything, it's the NATO counter affectionados who are mad that filthy casuals are allowed to use horse icons that actually look like a laser gun or something??
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Mar 27, 2016 21:32
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I was promised war dogs, preorder re-cancelled
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Mar 27, 2016 21:33
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Wiz posted:You're perfectly welcome to use NATO counters. This whole discussion started with a bunch of bitching about the fact that there is an alternative to NATO counters, which is what irritated me. You can't just have optional NATO counters to make everyone happy, you need to know you acknowledge they are superior and the people demanding you do so are good and smart and hansom and not-grogs. We need to see inside your heart and find only nato counters there.
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Mar 27, 2016 21:36
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Wiz posted:You're perfectly welcome to use NATO counters. This whole discussion started with a bunch of bitching about the fact that there is an alternative to NATO counters, which is what irritated me. If anything, it's the NATO counter affectionados who are made that filthy casuals use horse icons that actually look like a laser gun or something?? No it started by someone questioning the superiority of NATO symbols with regards to design (though in retrospective, it might have been a joke about someone misspelling the word appealing as appalling). Baronjutter posted:I think this passionate plea finally convinced them, I just got the brand new information none of us knew that nato counters will now be in Hoi4 as an option. They're in, we won, we can put the topic to bed and sleep sound in victory over the vile casuals. But it's not the default option. There should at least be a popup asking whether the player is a filthy casual who is intellectually unable to use abstract symbols every time the game starts until the player activates NATO symbols.
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Mar 27, 2016 21:36
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Baronjutter posted:You can't just have optional NATO counters to make everyone happy, you need to know you acknowledge they are superior and the people demanding you do so are good and smart and hansom and not-grogs. We need to see inside your heart and find only nato counters there. I'm gonna let you in on a lil secret: I don't play with NATO counters.
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Mar 27, 2016 21:36
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Wiz posted:You're perfectly welcome to use NATO counters. This whole discussion started with a bunch of bitching about the fact that there is an alternative to NATO counters, which is what irritated me. If anything, it's the NATO counter affectionados who are mad that filthy casuals are allowed to use horse icons that actually look like a laser gun or something?? Are you cross posting from the paradox forum and setting up an argument against what was said there to use it here? It started here from a poster not realizing there was an option to use NATO counters. Then someone else compared to the readability of the NATO cavalry counter vs the current hoi4 one and he had a point there in that the horse icon was crap. That's all there was to the something awful forums paradox thread.
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Mar 27, 2016 21:40
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Vanilla Mint Ice posted:Are you cross posting from the paradox forum and setting up an argument against what was said there to use it here? It started here from a poster not realizing there was an option to use NATO counters. Then someone else compared to the readability of the NATO cavalry counter vs the current hoi4 one and he had a point there in that the horse icon was crap. That's all there was to the something awful forums paradox thread. Maybe I'm just really goddamn sick of hearing about NATO counters because jfc do HOI4 posters never shut up about their precious NATO counters. Sorry if I overreacted.
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Mar 27, 2016 21:42
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It's okay friend, I'm sorry if I was overly hostile too.
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Mar 27, 2016 21:44
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Wiz posted:I'm gonna let you in on a lil secret: I don't play with NATO counters. Ability to feel human: removed
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Mar 27, 2016 21:46
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Rumda posted:Crushing nerds improves every situation. Said the paradox games player on the something awful forums.
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Mar 27, 2016 22:08
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B E NATO COUNTERS G H A Z I
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Mar 27, 2016 22:09
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Why were there NATO counters in the first 3 HOI games? Wait, are there counters in HOI 1? I can't find any screenshots that don't use sprites.
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Mar 27, 2016 22:10
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Wiz posted:Maybe I'm just really goddamn sick of hearing about NATO counters because jfc do HOI4 posters never shut up about their precious NATO counters. Sorry if I overreacted. Can you just do what you threatened to do a few pages back and remove the counters from the game? Please also have the WWW presenters very clearly point out that they have been removed and why this coming Wednesday so that we can watch everyone on reddit and Paradox Plaza blame us and flip out. I'll love watching that shitstorm unfold as well.
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Mar 27, 2016 22:11
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Vanilla Mint Ice posted:It's okay friend, I'm sorry if I was overly hostile too. Wiz posted:Maybe I'm just really goddamn sick of hearing about NATO counters because jfc do HOI4 posters never shut up about their precious NATO counters. Sorry if I overreacted. World Tension has decreased!
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Mar 27, 2016 22:13
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I'm more concerned about the models than the counters-- have we seen any close shots yet of the German infantry models on the map? I'm really hoping Paradox wasn't sloppy and accidentally gave the '36 infantry M40 or- God forbid!- M43 Wehrmacht uniforms.
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Mar 27, 2016 22:16
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Epinephrine posted:The intuitive part comes from the fact they they combine cleanly: if you see and X and O superimposed you know its mechanized, if you see an X with wheels it has trucks, and if you see an artillery dot with wheels you know it's self-propelled, etc. Ofaloaf posted:I'm more concerned about the models than the counters-- have we seen any close shots yet of the German infantry models on the map? I'm really hoping Paradox wasn't sloppy and accidentally gave the '36 infantry M40 or- God forbid!- M43 Wehrmacht uniforms.
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Mar 27, 2016 22:17
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Ofaloaf posted:I'm more concerned about the models than the counters-- have we seen any close shots yet of the German infantry models on the map? I'm really hoping Paradox wasn't sloppy and accidentally gave the '36 infantry M40 or- God forbid!- M43 Wehrmacht uniforms. Not sure how old these are, they could be outdated.   
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Mar 27, 2016 22:19
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Drone posted:Kavak, please implement zebra cavalry for Mittelafrika in the HOI4 version of the Kaiserreich mod. I'm actually tempted to make a unique sprite for the camel units the Ottomans have. Westminster System posted:Well he quit and came back a few times, railed against moderating at some point, thought that his inability to convert a mod was a conspiracy over not getting access to beta patch documentation that didn't even exist or something like that, you know, the usual. That latter bit im fuzzy on but it was something to do with a mod conversion. Just loads of random stuff really, paradox standard fare. Nobody knew what the gently caress he was talking about, but he was demanding access to a beta patch that didn't exist yet. One time he quit because he thought Russia and the US were about to start WWIII over Syria. That's the level of political acumen you really want in someone developing a mod based on modern day politics.
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