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Okay, sure, I shouldn't ignore your points Ocrassus. I'll fix that. Your objections were that 1) it was a legal duty, and 2) that since religion is a choice, it's less entitled, correct? The issue with the first is that, and I think you'll agree, it's not inconceivable to create a scenario without such a duty. A religious person declines something they don't legally have to do, at the expense of someone else, and justifies it on the grounds of offense. We're then back to where we started. The issue with the second is that it doesn't work with the logic you've already used: is the offense generated by a choice less intense then offense generated by something that is not? If not, then 'I feel' should be respected either way. Or what if the religious person simply didn't feel they had a choice, they had a dream or an intense experience that they feel means they're compelled to follow that particular maxim, are they then on equal footing? I'm personally not satisfied either way, I think there's no real escaping imposing a constraint on reasonable grounds, which means going back to saying that it is, in fact, okay to offend people, but it's not okay to disrespect them. That means negotiating when something is and is not granted, in a way that's hard to exploit, but protects the vulnerable, and gives them a space to live. Does that make sense? rudatron fucked around with this message at 11:28 on Mar 27, 2016 |
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Mar 27, 2016 11:26
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I agree with Rudy. I don't want to use personal genders because I don't believe in gender. I don't want to live in a society that validates people for creating their own private genders, so I will use call people "he" "she" or "they" depending on their personal preference and if I can remember. I won't do third genders though, I think they are a step in the wrong direction.
The Kingfish fucked around with this message at 15:58 on Mar 27, 2016 |
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Mar 27, 2016 15:05
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The Kingfish posted:I agree with Rudy. I don't want to use personal genders because I don't believe in gender. I don't want to live in a society that validates people for creating their own private genders, so I will use call people "he" "she" or "they" depending on their personal preference and if I can remember. I won't do third genders though, I think they are a step in the wrong direction. I don't believe in race, I'm colorblind, and that's why I oppose racist institutions like affirmative action and the UNCF.
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Mar 27, 2016 16:11
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Nude Bog Lurker posted:I don't really understand why you have spent so many words to try and justify not having good manners. Adhering to societal norms is more or less the definition of having good manners..
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Mar 27, 2016 16:46
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"What are the bounds of self-determination in the eyes of society" is a fundamentally interesting question and I'm glad the slap fights in this thread have started to ebb.
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Mar 27, 2016 17:06
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Archonex posted:Dude. This is the same thread (And I think the same poster. Though maybe that was Flanders.) where people have said that they don't think a woman that looks sufficiently feminine in their eyes deserves to be called a woman. This is on top of referring to a definitive female experience that all women fit into within society at one point. I'd love to be a fly on the wall when they called a butch lesbian a man and continued to do so. I have a feeling it wouldn't end well.
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Mar 27, 2016 17:48
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Effectronica posted:I don't believe in race, I'm colorblind, and that's why I oppose racist institutions like affirmative action and the UNCF. If people started to invent new races that they wanted to be called I would have a problem with that. Race isn't real and we don't need to encourage that sort of nonsense.
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Mar 27, 2016 18:24
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Commie NedFlanders posted:now you are putting words in his mouth Hey commie nedflanders, just wanted to say you are consistently one of the best posters in this thread and you have given me a lot to think about when it comes to transexuality and its place in society edit: the rest of you idiots can go gently caress yourselves (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 27, 2016 18:45
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I'm sat through and even been stupid enough to participate in a lot of this kinda thread, but I think this is the first time someone has actually gone to the point of reinforcing gender stereotypes as the true ontology of gender like Rudatron has here.
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Mar 27, 2016 19:06
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The rest of this thread is also rather strange in that a number of people have invoked Martin Luther King, Jr's success in civil rights as a counter to people yelling at them on the internet. People calling you a bigot on the internet is a much less disruptive and confrontational tactic than anything Dr. King did. While I don't think things like bathroom sitins would be useful in terms of advancing trans rights, they're certainly more in keeping with his methods of civil disobedience.
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Mar 27, 2016 19:10
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I would be thrilled to see you guys go up to a ninety mile an hour bull lesbian and call her a man to her face
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Mar 27, 2016 19:49
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tl;dr:  this stupid thread and everyone in it
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Mar 27, 2016 20:02
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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This thread reminds me of what Samantha Bee discovered interviewing trump supporters
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Mar 27, 2016 21:19
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Respecting someone's pronouns is literally the easiest thing to do in the world and there's no reason not to do it other than show disdain for the other person.
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Mar 27, 2016 22:49
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If you use xir instead of they I unironically think you're retarded and I refuse to join you in the short bus. Does that qualify as disdain?
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Mar 27, 2016 23:37
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DeusExMachinima posted:If you use xir instead of they I unironically think you're retarded and I refuse to join you in the short bus. Does that qualify as disdain? You're being rude.
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Mar 27, 2016 23:44
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DeusExMachinima posted:If you use xir instead of they I unironically think you're retarded and I refuse to join you in the short bus. Does that qualify as disdain? Disdain or not, you aren't wrong.
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Mar 27, 2016 23:53
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Nude Bog Lurker posted:You're being rude. Yeah and?
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Mar 27, 2016 23:55
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blowfish posted:Yeah and?
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Mar 28, 2016 00:01
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Cingulate posted:Not being rude to marginalized people is good. Why? What if they are acting like idiots?
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Mar 28, 2016 00:02
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The Kingfish posted:Why? What if they are acting like idiots? You can handle people who act like idiots without being rude
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Mar 28, 2016 00:10
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The Kingfish posted:Why? What if they are acting like idiots? If someone is an rear end in a top hat, they are an rear end in a top hat independent of their gender identity. Assholes can be found everywhere. Somebody isn't an rear end in a top hat if they politely request that you atleast verbally acknowledge the identity that doesn't end up causing them distress. You are however an rear end in a top hat if you deny this simple, unobtrusive request.
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Mar 28, 2016 00:27
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blowfish posted:Yeah and? You should try not to be rude. This is obvious.
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Mar 28, 2016 00:42
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The problem is, you aren't arguing that declining to use made up personal genders is rude. You are arguing that declining to acknowledge personalized genders "activates", in the words of one poster, a "suicide chip" in the brains of these people.
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Mar 28, 2016 01:04
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The Kingfish posted:The problem is, you aren't arguing that declining to use made up personal genders is rude. You are arguing that declining to acknowledge personalized genders "activates", in the words of one poster, a "suicide chip" in the brains of these people. I am arguing that it is rude, to which the response has been varying degrees of teenage misanthropy and autism.
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Mar 28, 2016 01:10
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It is socially acceptable to be rude to 'assholes', and if it is possible to be handle them without being rude, then that would apply to both marginalized and non-marginalized people. What is respect cannot be declared by fiat of the 'injured' party. If they're presenting, I think it's fair to say they deserve it, but I don't thing being asked means it must be respected. It's interesting, no? What do you think about it?
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Mar 28, 2016 01:14
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Nude Bog Lurker posted:I am arguing that it is rude, to which the response has been varying degrees of teenage misanthropy and autism. Cool. I already explained why I think it is worth it to be rude in this situation.
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Mar 28, 2016 01:14
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Given that I have no way of understanding, knowing or evaluating the internal life of other people, how do I know when to accommodate someone or when to roll my eyes and scoff? Or do I just indulge otherkins and people with "headmates" for fear of being rude?
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Mar 28, 2016 01:16
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The Kingfish posted:Cool. I already explained why I think it is worth it to be rude in this situation. Your argument doesn't really work however because while gender may be a stupid social construct, unfortunately it remains a stupid social construct which is integral to our society. Your suggestion is akin to saying we should strike off all anti-racism laws because race is a stupid idea. Stupid or not it has a marked effect on actual people who are alive and suffering because of it, and while it is good to work towards a postracial society, until you have one, refusing to support those who are victimized by the concept and how it is applied, is very stupid. the trump tutelage posted:Given that I have no way of understanding, knowing or evaluating the internal life of other people, how do I know when to accommodate someone or when to roll my eyes and scoff? Or do I just indulge otherkins and people with "headmates" for fear of being rude? Take a guess and we'll be sure to correct you when you get it wrong.
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Mar 28, 2016 01:18
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the trump tutelage posted:Given that I have no way of understanding, knowing or evaluating the internal life of other people, how do I know when to accommodate someone or when to roll my eyes and scoff? Or do I just indulge otherkins and people with "headmates" for fear of being rude? how often do you run into otherkin and headmates people or have to refer to them in conversation? I went to art school and I didn't even have that happen, so maybe don't worry about outlandish hypotheticals.
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Mar 28, 2016 01:19
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OwlFancier posted:Take a guess and we'll be sure to correct you when you get it wrong.
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Mar 28, 2016 01:22
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Troposphere posted:how often do you run into otherkin and headmates people or have to refer to them in conversation? I went to art school and I didn't even have that happen, so maybe don't worry about outlandish hypotheticals. I knew someone who thought/believed that she was a real life snow-leopard.
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Mar 28, 2016 01:23
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Troposphere posted:how often do you run into otherkin and headmates people or have to refer to them in conversation? I went to art school and I didn't even have that happen, so maybe don't worry about outlandish hypotheticals. e. They were all anime characters or something and it sounded outlandish but so does a non-binary gendlr, frankly. e2. I also know a guy who unlimited shrimp fucked around with this message at 01:27 on Mar 28, 2016 |
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Mar 28, 2016 01:24
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the trump tutelage posted:I knew a girl who claimed to have headmates so it isn't a hypothetical for me. maybe just don't talk to that person again if it's something that really bothers you? I really don't understand this. I met a ton of obnoxious people in college and if they bothered me I just avoided them and took myself out of the situation instead of being rude to their faces. and headmates and otherkin really have nothing to do with gender identity...
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Mar 28, 2016 01:28
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OwlFancier posted:Your argument doesn't really work however because while gender may be a stupid social construct, unfortunately it remains a stupid social construct which is integral to our society. Gender is a stupid social construct that we are stuck with for the time being, and I accept the necessity of gender-based laws and the three pronouns we currently use. That doesn't mean we should just allow the concept of gender to expand into an even more complicated mess than what we already have. My suggestion doesn't really correlate well into a race metaphor. If it did, it would be akin to refusing to recognize new races that were being created, because race is a social construct and I don't think it's good to legitimize the philosophical concept that way.
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Mar 28, 2016 01:31
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The Kingfish posted:Gender is a stupid social construct that we are stuck with for the time being, and I accept the necessity of gender-based laws and the three pronouns we currently use. That doesn't mean we should just allow the concept of gender to expand into an even more complicated mess than what we already have. Perhaps allowing everyone to define their own race and gender would be an excellent way of delegitimizing the concept as a prescriptive quality?
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Mar 28, 2016 01:32
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from what I've seen most otherkin don't even use "cute" pronouns, that was a thing going around that mostly teenagers were doing on tumblr and has generally died down. I think the solution to the people still using them is not to talk to or about Internet teenagers and let them have their spaces to be goofy kids and pretend to be animes and hopefully they will grow out of it. this has nothing to do with transgender people.
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Mar 28, 2016 01:35
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the trump tutelage posted:Given that I have no way of understanding, knowing or evaluating the internal life of other people, how do I know when to accommodate someone or when to roll my eyes and scoff? Or do I just indulge otherkins and people with "headmates" for fear of being rude? i already spoke about this earlier in the thread. there is a long historical, medical, and psychiatric tradition of nonbinary, trans, and otherwise gender variant people that goes back several hundreds of years. trans and nonbinary issues are comparable to otherkin and suchlike only in the most facile and tedious of ways so naturally this thread keeps latching onto that. since it is so onerous to you and many others, you should be relieved to know that there is no slippery slope to blanket acceptance of every invented malady a lonely teenager on the internet might concoct. identities take time and concerted effort to coalesce as social forces. this is good, because this effort is a strong indicator of legitimacy. this whole thread is nothing but the ugly expression of the average goonlord's deep anxiety about having nobody to feel inherently superior to. a litany of maladjusted children asking in a panic who will be left for them to make fun without even the slightest self-awareness that this is not a healthy concern to have. you may continue to cling to outmoded ideas and unthinking belligerence if that's what keeps you going through the day, but no amount of flailing equivocation between legitimate health and identity issues and the fantasies of neglected kids on tumblr will change the fact that your own gut intuition about the rightness or wrongness of gender variance amounts to less than nothing.
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Mar 28, 2016 01:35
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Troposphere posted:maybe just don't talk to that person again if it's something that really bothers you? I really don't understand this. I met a ton of obnoxious people in college and if they bothered me I just avoided them and took myself out of the situation instead of being rude to their faces. and headmates and otherkin really have nothing to do with gender identity... And I get that otherkin and headmates don't have anything to do with gender identity, and I get that the psychological distress that often haunts those with non-conforming gender identities gives gender identity issues a weight tumblrina nonsense doesn't have. But the question remains, given that I have no way of truly understanding, knowing or evaluating the internal life of other people, how do I know when someone's nonbinary identity is valid (i.e. a genderqueer person with unconventional pronouns) or is invalid or even problematic (ie. otherkins)? unlimited shrimp fucked around with this message at 01:38 on Mar 28, 2016 |
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Mar 28, 2016 01:35
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OwlFancier posted:Perhaps allowing everyone to define their own race and gender would be an excellent way of delegitimizing the concept as a prescriptive quality? That's how it already is. E: And if a white person defines themself as black they might receive a rude interaction(!) Same with somebody claiming to be a wood elf or an ork.
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Mar 28, 2016 01:36
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