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neonnoodle posted:Not really. In studio terms, it's just as expensive if not more. The advantages lie in: perfectly consistent characters without having to worry about draftsmanship; easier to make changes and move the camera or reuse assets; easier to do complex stuff like highly detailed character designs or crowd scenes. I see. But then how come most game developers comment how much more expensive it is to do high quality 2D rather than 3D?
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Mar 28, 2016 02:48
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Game animation isn't the same deal at all. It's just a bunch of preset animations (often mo-capped) for various actions with no regard for composition that get reused, often with software taking over when things get too complicated (e.g. physics). Studio animation for TV and films etc is hand crafted from start to finish. They're barely even comparable when you're thinking about cost or time.
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Mar 28, 2016 03:11
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Koramei posted:Game animation isn't the same deal at all. It's just a bunch of preset animations (often mo-capped) for various actions with no regard for composition that get reused, often with software taking over when things get too complicated (e.g. physics). Studio animation for TV and films etc is hand crafted from start to finish. They're barely even comparable when you're thinking about cost or time. I understand. Its just that I've been hearing some people say things that the reason why high quality 2D animation die was due to cost. However, I didn't think about some of things you just said. Then again IIRC many fighting games like Street Fighter don't use things like mocap. I really wish 2D will fall in favor again in the future. punk rebel ecks fucked around with this message at 04:30 on Mar 28, 2016 |
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Mar 28, 2016 04:05
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Also I think the "2D costs more than 3D" thing about game development has really, really become outdated with the kinds of budgets games have nowadays But for a small indie team, it would cost more, unless you've just got one dude chained to a desk animating everything and that's going to take a long time.
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Mar 28, 2016 06:15
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Quest For Glory II posted:Also I think the "2D costs more than 3D" thing about game development has really, really become outdated with the kinds of budgets games have nowadays I've actually heard somewhere that it costs significantly more money to make character in Street Fighter IV than it does for Skullgirls. That blew my mind.
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Mar 28, 2016 06:29
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in regards to OpenToonz, I do want to learn it in case someone wants to do the crazy thing and start up more indie animation studios over the internet, but I think for now, I'm gonna use the software I bought because I need to use it Rough animation and/ or boards in CSP EX (once I upgrade once it's on sale again) and then clean-up in Toon Boom (yet another thing I can upgrade, if the difference between Studio and Harmony Essentials is great enough)
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Mar 28, 2016 07:18
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If more independent animation studios pop up on the internet they will probably stick to industry standards since most people have them already. The last job I took online, I was swapping Flash CS3 and CS4 files back and forth. The artists that are too young to have bought and owned animation software legitimately most likely have a pirated version of Flash anyway, and they'll be the ones poached by the non-unionized studios to do unpaid intern work, so they'll be spoken for The 7th Guest fucked around with this message at 09:17 on Mar 28, 2016 |
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Mar 28, 2016 09:15
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Bruce Timm said at a recent comic-con that 2D is much more cost effective than 3D but 3D is favored by executives because it makes the series look more like the toys, and is considered classier because it's in vogue with the Hollywood studios, who do actually have the budgets to make 3D look amazing. The only TV show that really did great 3D is the How to Train Your Dragon TV series, and that was done in China by a horrendously overworked staff. Though some limited-animation series like Pocoyo actually look great using 3D. But that's due to very clever art direction.
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Mar 29, 2016 03:20
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Ccs posted:Bruce Timm said at a recent comic-con that 2D is much more cost effective than 3D but 3D is favored by executives because it makes the series look more like the toys, and is considered classier because it's in vogue with the Hollywood studios, who do actually have the budgets to make 3D look amazing. The only TV show that really did great 3D is the How to Train Your Dragon TV series, and that was done in China by a horrendously overworked staff. I still find it odd that 3D can cost more than 2D. Maybe that's due to the cost of rendering farms and less of the actual process? Then again, I know that even money doesn't rule everything in business. IIRC, practical effects are far cheaper to do than CGI, yet studios still favor CGI for their special effects. Anyway, do you guys think big budget 2D could make a comeback? The film Klaus recently got funded and produced. punk rebel ecks fucked around with this message at 04:16 on Mar 29, 2016 |
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Mar 29, 2016 04:13
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punk rebel ecks posted:I still find it odd that 3D can cost more than 2D. Maybe that's due to the cost of rendering farms and less of the actual process? Here's Cheapo the Rabbit:  Time it took me to badly draw rabbit: <5 minutes Time it would take someone to model the character: multiple hours OK, time to animate Cheapo!  Time it took me to trace the character and raise his arm: <5 minutes Time it would take someone to rig the character so that it can raise its arm: multiple hours (The actual animation itself is roughly the same amount of hours for 2D or 3D.) Oh, wait, he needs an efficiency apartment:  Time it took to draw the room: 5 minutes Time it would take to model the lamp, set up the room, light the scene, texture the assets... you get the picture. And the stupidest thing of all is that drawings get away with murder. They are much more forgiving to the eye. You can get away with a mere suggestion of a facial expression, a room, a chair, a mouth, a hand. Drawings cause people to fill in the blanks. You can't do that with CG or it looks like poo poo. You have to invest way more with CG to get to the same level, and I'd say much of that time and money is wasted. punk rebel ecks posted:Anyway, do you guys think big budget 2D could make a comeback?
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Mar 29, 2016 12:48
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neonnoodle posted:Great write up. neonnoodle posted:It's not that they wouldn't make money, or that they wouldn't make a profit. For example, the 2011 Winnie the Pooh movie was made for $30 million and made $33 million box office. Disney's Planes cost $50 million and grossed over $230 million. I recall Princess and the Frog doing well and wondered why Disney saw it as a failure, but your post does explain that as 3D movies typically make a killing. It only seems like recently they are beginning to slow down.
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Mar 29, 2016 14:14
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Did some more animation on a bear I've been working on and off on for a while. Apart from moving like a rabbit, some minor resizing (bear gets smaller in some parts) and speed tweaks (the attack at the end is way too slow) I'm pretty content with it so far, especially since I didn't have any reference to go from apart from a photo or two of a bear >_>
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Mar 29, 2016 14:26
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Nice atmosphere you've been able to achieve there.punk rebel ecks posted:This all makes perfect sense. Though it just goes against what I've been told about the cost of doing 2D and 3D for years. But again, that was in video games. And being that you seem to be a professional, I believe you.
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Mar 29, 2016 14:41
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neonnoodle posted:2D vs 3D I think this is generally true for blockbusters or really small productions (one man projects), but in some cases it could be cheaper to produce in 3D if you can reuse assets and need lots of content.
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Mar 29, 2016 16:06
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So I really want to practice coloring in backgrounds. Is there a site that has templates of non-colored in drawings that I can import to Toon Boom or Gimp to color in?
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Mar 29, 2016 16:52
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punk rebel ecks posted:So I really want to practice coloring in backgrounds. Also quick question concerning composition; is it just me or is this book just ridiculously hard to sparse through? It's quite a thick and comprehensive guide but trying to read through it makes it a bigger chore than it ought to be. Any tips on how to approach reading this book? I've had it in my collection for years, and yet I haven't been able to go through all of it.
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Mar 29, 2016 18:02
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HelloWinter posted:I've found that a quick google search for 'background line art' gives some relatively good ones to start with, varying in complexity. I would recommend starting to colour simpler-looking ones first, just to get a hang of filling in the big shapes and learning about composition.
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Mar 29, 2016 18:24
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punk rebel ecks posted:The reason I ask for templates is because unless I am insanely careful I'll begin to paint over the lines. It would be much easier to use a template and then add a layer behind the drawing and paint it. I don't really follow you. Do you have access to painting programs that have the Layers tool enabled? It'll make the process easier.
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Mar 29, 2016 18:58
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punk rebel ecks posted:So I really want to practice coloring in backgrounds. Google Image Search: animation layout drawings Have a party 
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Mar 29, 2016 19:42
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So yeah Opentoonz is pretty much awesome. After a day of watching tutorials and monkeying around I think I'm confident in saying that it's basically a non intuitive Flash/Toonboom. Yes you can do raster, onion skinning, motion pathing, xsheets, 3D integrated systems, multicel coloring, custom workspaces, unlimited cels and audio layers, etc... You just have to set up your workspace including shortcuts before you get started with anything. It's a pain to start, but if you are going from Flash to Toonboom it might take you a day up to a week to transition over. I haven't found voice syncing like in Toonboom yet. IMHO I think it's just about the most powerful 2d animation program out there that is license free.
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Mar 29, 2016 21:02
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So Opentoonz for a new animator yay or nay? Up to now I have been drawing in Sai and then stringing all the images together in Graphicsgale.
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Mar 30, 2016 19:40
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Applewhite posted:So Opentoonz for a new animator yay or nay? There are programs out there that are more intuitive. If you go into opentoonz just know that you will be learning the program and animation where as some other programs will have you frame by framing, motion pathing, cut-outs, directly out of the box (or download). I'd say this is more for someone that is already familiar with the usage, workflow, and terminology used in Flash and Toonboom without having to pay money. It is not user friendly to start. There are menus hidden under tabs in context menus... Almost all of which can be customized to shortcuts. So if you are willing to take the time to create a custom workspace then it can and will mimic almost everything those others programs can do. Your ability to do that may be slow going as the community translates everything from Japanese to English. EDIT: As a side note, everyone keeps mentioning Ghibli, but this was also the program used by Rough Draft Studios to make Futurama. So yeah, now go make your own Futuramas everyone! An Ounce of Gold fucked around with this message at 20:26 on Mar 30, 2016 |
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Mar 30, 2016 20:17
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I think mainstream theatrical 2D animation is due for a comeback in 10-20 years, or whatever amount of time it takes between the current hollywood system collapsing in on itself and inexperienced young producers looking to make money on risky projects. And then it'll fall out of vogue again in 2050 or 2060 or so or just whenever the new system becomes complacent like the old one did, just like how it happened in the seventies, etc etc
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Mar 30, 2016 21:13
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An Ounce of Gold posted:There are programs out there that are more intuitive. If you go into opentoonz just know that you will be learning the program and animation where as some other programs will have you frame by framing, motion pathing, cut-outs, directly out of the box (or download). Thanks! I'll read back through the thread to find some good, free animation software recommendations (I know they've been mentioned, I just can't recall them). Unless you can think of some off the top of your head?
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Mar 30, 2016 21:17
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An Ounce of Gold posted:EDIT: As a side note, everyone keeps mentioning Ghibli, but this was also the program used by Rough Draft Studios to make Futurama. So yeah, now go make your own Futuramas everyone!
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Mar 30, 2016 21:27
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Korea does a lot of hand-drawn animation for American shows, as well as some Toon Boom stuff, but it can always shift if wages are lower somewhere else. Rough Draft Korea does the animation work that is pre-produced by Rough Draft in California. Right now the Korean government is pouring lots of government money into maintaining/growing their animation sector, but compete fiercely with China/India/Phillipines/Taiwan/Canada/Brazil, etc. etc. Fun fact, part of the reason Klaus got greenlit is because it's being done in Montreal, a place with heavy gov't subsidies for animation. Add in the low Canadian dollar, and it's affordable to make a 2D animated movie there.
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Mar 31, 2016 04:08
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Are there any places that animate in America?Ccs posted:Fun fact, part of the reason Klaus got greenlit is because it's being done in Montreal, a place with heavy gov't subsidies for animation. Add in the low Canadian dollar, and it's affordable to make a 2D animated movie there. Always wondered why there were so many Canadian animation studios.
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Mar 31, 2016 04:33
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punk rebel ecks posted:I still find it odd that 3D can cost more than 2D. Maybe that's due to the cost of rendering farms and less of the actual process? It all depends on the scope of the project in question. If you have a TV show or short film with a constant cast of characters, a few set locations and a style that's not too rubbery and loose, 3D would probably be the cheapest and easiest. Once you start having a bunch characters that only appear for a few scenes or using a wide variety of locations, the amount of work required for modeling/rigging/lighting rapidly inflates.
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Mar 31, 2016 20:32
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Christo posted:It all depends on the scope of the project in question. If you have a TV show or short film with a constant cast of characters, a few set locations and a style that's not too rubbery and loose, 3D would probably be the cheapest and easiest. Once you start having a bunch characters that only appear for a few scenes or using a wide variety of locations, the amount of work required for modeling/rigging/lighting rapidly inflates. In short: More models to make leads to 3D being more costly and taking longer. More animation frames to make leads to 2D being more costly and taking longer. Obviously when not taking things to account such as art or animation style.
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Mar 31, 2016 21:22
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South Park is kinda cool in that respect because they animate it with maya nowadays. And I imagine most of the characters are made out of premade shapes. Or are simple enough they can just make them quickly. And some other shows like Futurama or Archer are mostly in 2D but use 3D at times.
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Mar 31, 2016 23:05
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punk rebel ecks posted:Are there any places that animate in America? TV series, movies, web series, and commercial animation is all done in America at varying levels. But most cities have production bubbles and busts for larger scale projects, so one city might be really hot for TV of feature work for a while, then the industry will die for a while, then a few years later they'll be another burst of work. NYC had a boom during the time that Nickelodeon and MTV were there, nowadays they have some web companies like Mashable. Archer is animated somewhere in the states. Part of the Gumball Cartoon Network series was animated recently at a place called The Animation Collective that recently went out of business. One studio owner I know keeps running his business in NYC by going out of business every few years, discharging his debts through his LLC, and then starting up a new studio in the same place under a different name. tldr: Yes, but sporadically.
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Apr 1, 2016 00:53
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punk rebel ecks posted:More animation frames...2D huh?
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Apr 1, 2016 00:58
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Ccs posted:TV series, movies, web series, and commercial animation is all done in America at varying levels. But most cities have production bubbles and busts for larger scale projects, so one city might be really hot for TV of feature work for a while, then the industry will die for a while, then a few years later they'll be another burst of work. Koramei posted:huh? More frames of animation.
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Apr 1, 2016 06:45
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Really, guys. Just get TVPaint.
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Apr 1, 2016 17:35
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FunkyAl posted:I think mainstream theatrical 2D animation is due for a comeback in 10-20 years, or whatever amount of time it takes between the current hollywood system collapsing in on itself and inexperienced young producers looking to make money on risky projects. And then it'll fall out of vogue again in 2050 or 2060 or so or just whenever the new system becomes complacent like the old one did, just like how it happened in the seventies, etc etc What is your rationale for this?
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Apr 1, 2016 17:58
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bitmap posted:Really, guys. Just get TVPaint. It's a pretty expensive software though. I just went to look at the price and I was dismayed.
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Apr 2, 2016 10:31
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HelloWinter posted:It's a pretty expensive software though. I just went to look at the price and I was dismayed. Not sure about TV Paint but if you buy a full license of Toon Boom you can get each upgraded software for very cheap. I brought Toon Boom Animate while I was a student for a few hundred dollars. I kept it for years and last year finally upgraded to Harmony Advance for only $230. The initial price of these software programs is expensive, especially if you aren't a student, but in the long run it isn't too bad assuming you stick to the same program.
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Apr 2, 2016 12:50
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HelloWinter posted:It's a pretty expensive software though. I just went to look at the price and I was dismayed. its worth the full price, but it's cut in half if you have access to a student email address. also: imagine backpacking central america and getting an offer to animate mickey mouse for a disney campaign, due around when you plan to be in Belize and your computer and cintiq is on a boat to England! haha! haha! hah!
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Apr 2, 2016 18:26
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hahhhh
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Apr 2, 2016 18:26
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bitmap posted:its worth the full price, but it's cut in half if you have access to a student email address. quote:also: imagine backpacking central america and getting an offer to animate mickey mouse for a disney campaign, due around when you plan to be in Belize and your computer and cintiq is on a boat to England! haha! haha! hah!  Is there no way for you to work on it?
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Apr 2, 2016 18:30
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