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the trump tutelage posted:If you believe that individualism is too dominant an ethos in Western culture, then it follows that you may not want to indulge someone with a de facto narcissistic concern with being perceived "correctly" regardless of how they actually appear, or someone who arrogantly insists that society reshape itself to accommodate them when is they who should accommodate society. What is the limit of the violence that can be used to make someone accommodate society?
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Mar 29, 2016 03:16
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SwimmingSpider posted:
hokay
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Mar 29, 2016 03:20
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No one uses neo-pronouns to "feel special",
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Amused to Death posted:hokay Do you know someone who's told you they do it to feel special, or do you feel that anyone who is nonconformist is doing it to feel special until proven otherwise, or what?
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Mar 29, 2016 03:22
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the trump tutelage posted:If you believe that individualism is too dominant an ethos in Western culture, then it follows that you may not want to indulge someone with a de facto narcissistic concern with being perceived "correctly" regardless of how they actually appear, or someone who arrogantly insists that society reshape itself to accommodate them when is they who should accommodate society. Anybody who would say this is being profoundly stupid and using too many words to say "shut up and do what society wants." A black person wants to sit at the front of the bus? How arrogant! A gay couple wants to get married? How narcissistic, accommodate society!
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Mar 29, 2016 03:23
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Brainiac Five posted:What is the limit of the violence that can be used to make someone accommodate society?
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Mar 29, 2016 03:25
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the trump tutelage posted:How violent is internet eye rolling? So in other words, people should accommodate society, but nothing be done to ensure that this happens. This seems like a really interesting morality, where you uphold it by refusing to uphold it. Did you get it from Zen Buddhism? The Three Stooges?
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Mar 29, 2016 03:26
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"shut up and accommodate" would be ok if these conflicts about identity weren't a representation of a struggle against oppression. I mean like, not everyone is treated by society-at-large the way you are. You're arguing as if everyone was you. But that's not the case!
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Mar 29, 2016 03:28
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Brainiac Five posted:So in other words, people should accommodate society, but nothing be done to ensure that this happens. This seems like a really interesting morality, where you uphold it by refusing to uphold it. Did you get it from Zen Buddhism? The Three Stooges? SHISHKABOB posted:"shut up and accommodate" would be ok if these conflicts about identity weren't a representation of a struggle against oppression.
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Mar 29, 2016 03:39
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Brainiac Five posted:Do you know someone who's told you they do it to feel special, or do you feel that anyone who is nonconformist is doing it to feel special until proven otherwise, or what? 1. It reminds me of demigirl/demiboy bullshit 2. loving Xih
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Mar 29, 2016 03:41
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the trump tutelage posted:How violent is thinking society at large does not have an ethical obligation to accommodate atypical expressions of identity? Do you think gay people should not fight for acceptance?
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Mar 29, 2016 03:44
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Amused to Death posted:1. It reminds me of demigirl/demiboy bullshit
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Mar 29, 2016 03:45
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the trump tutelage posted:If you believe that individualism is too dominant an ethos in Western culture, then it follows that you may not want to indulge someone with a de facto narcissistic concern with being perceived "correctly" regardless of how they actually appear, or someone who arrogantly insists that society reshape itself to accommodate them when is they who should accommodate society. So you're saying that someone's gender is subservient to their physical appearance?
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Mar 29, 2016 03:47
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the trump tutelage posted:How violent is thinking society at large does not have an ethical obligation to accommodate atypical expressions of identity? What are the limits of being able to refuse to accommodate?
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Mar 29, 2016 03:47
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Krysmphoenix posted:And what's wrong with being demigirl/demiboy? Its actually so wrong I can argue against it from both a trans and a terf viewpoint
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Mar 29, 2016 03:49
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Krysmphoenix posted:And what's wrong with being demigirl/demiboy? I dunno what that is but I think I like it better than any other pronoun.
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Mar 29, 2016 03:49
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Amused to Death posted:Its actually so wrong I can argue against it from both a trans and a terf viewpoint Then please, go ahead. 
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Mar 29, 2016 03:51
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Krysmphoenix posted:Then please, go ahead. Trans: its absurd to say someone is a demigirl or demiboy, or any kind of gender variant outside of the usual man/women just because they sometimes do and associate with masculine/feminine norms of the opposite gender. Its frankly belittling to trans people and possibly even imtersexed people and what they go through and their desire for them to be taken seriously. Terf: look at what the loving genderist cult is pushing. Now instead of a girl just being a girl who likes so called boyish things she's now a ~demiboy~ because she likes baggy jeans and playing football. This is just a crazy enforce!memt of gender norms, which is the whole trans agenda anyways.
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Mar 29, 2016 04:14
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[edit: argh, why am I still posting in this idiotic thread]
DeathMuffin fucked around with this message at 04:25 on Mar 29, 2016 |
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Mar 29, 2016 04:15
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Amused to Death posted:Trans: its absurd to say someone is a demigirl or demiboy, or any kind of gender variant outside of the usual man/women just because they sometimes do and associate with masculine/feminine norms of the opposite gender. Its frankly belittling to trans people and possibly even imtersexed people and what they go through and their desire for them to be taken seriously. Okay...so...looking at the bolded parts there; are you honestly saying that there are no other options other than MALE or FEMALE? That everyone exists solely on the two poles of the binary? That there's no such thing as, say, an androgynous or agender individual?
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Mar 29, 2016 04:18
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jivjov posted:Okay...so...looking at the bolded parts there; are you honestly saying that there are no other options other than MALE or FEMALE? That everyone exists solely on the two poles of the binary? Yes. At best one could argue trans and intersexed people occupy an outsider place on the binary, but that's because of an unusual life experience and/or mixture of male and female physical characteristics. Like being androgynous and breaking gender roles doesn't make you non binary, or Xir or whatever gender variant
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Mar 29, 2016 04:26
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Amused to Death posted:Yes. At best one could argue trans and intersexed people occupy an outsider place on the binary, but that's because of an unusual life experience and/or mixture of male and female physical characteristics. Like being androgynous and breaking gender roles doesn't make you non binary, or Xir or whatever gender variant Okay; so you are just completely and utterly wrong here; and you really should just shut up and go away because you don't know a thing about gender identity. Gender is a spectrum, not two binary poles. I'm really trying to keep a civil tongue here...but you basically just said that one of my best friends is lying to me about who they are, or that they're "just confused" or some other poo poo. So seriously; go educate yourself and don't post again until you have a goddamn clue as to what you're talking about.
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Mar 29, 2016 04:33
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Amused to Death posted:Like being androgynous and breaking gender roles doesn't make you non binary Actually that's exactly how it is. When you move away from gender roles you move away from the gender binary. Some people decide that at some point (and it is their job to decide when, not anyone else) they've strayed so far away from the binary that they're something completely different. Being androgynous is just one such way to accomplish this.
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Mar 29, 2016 04:35
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What on earth would being non binary be if not the bisexual to gender's male and female? I mean I guess you can certainly have an entirely different concept of gender but 'neither one nor the other' is surely the most obvious meaning of nonbinary gender?
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Mar 29, 2016 04:37
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Krysmphoenix posted:Actually that's exactly how it is. When you move away from gender roles you move away from the gender binary. Some people decide that at some point (and it is their job to decide when, not anyone else) they've strayed so far away from the binary that they're something completely different. Being androgynous is just one such way to accomplish this. Yeah; everyone please take note of this parenthetical. Nobody gets to tell someone else what their gender is or isn't.
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Mar 29, 2016 04:38
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OwlFancier posted:What on earth would being non binary be if not the bisexual to gender's male and female? Well for starters non-binary is a umbrella term to represent every single gender identity that is not male or female...so the equivalent here is that being non-binary gender wise would be "not straight" sexual orientation wise.
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Mar 29, 2016 04:38
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Krysmphoenix posted:Well for starters non-binary is a umbrella term to represent every single gender identity that is not male or female...so the equivalent here is that being non-binary gender wise would be "not straight" sexual orientation wise. Yeah I worded that a bit wrong, just really weird that someone would have a concept of non binary which doesn't include the most obvious non-binary position.
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Mar 29, 2016 04:41
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jivjov posted:Okay; so you are just completely and utterly wrong here; and you really should just shut up and go away because you don't know a thing about gender identity. Whatever you say, Xir OwlFancier posted:What on earth would being non binary be if not the bisexual to gender's male and female? I mean yeah, this is true,and like I said there are people who could in fact fall into an "other" category, but these aren't most of the people on the internet trying to use this term
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Mar 29, 2016 04:42
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Amused to Death posted:Whatever you say, Xir
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Mar 29, 2016 04:45
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Amused to Death posted:Whatever you say, Xir Okay, look here you mouthy little poo poo; you do not get to tell me, or my friends, who or what I or they are. Whatever you think you know about gender, you loving don't. You are an offensive jackass. There are SO many people that don't meet your narrow little view of gender. Just because you don't understand it, just because you REFUSE to understand it, does not mean that non-binary individuals are making it up, or wrong about their own gender identities. Educate yourself and stop being an rear end to people; seriously.
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Mar 29, 2016 04:45
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Amused to Death posted:I mean yeah, this is true,and like I said there are people who could in fact fall into an "other" category, but these aren't most of the people on the internet trying to use this term Uh, how would you know? I mean that's kind of something you have to take people's word for because you can't really see in their head.
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Mar 29, 2016 04:46
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OwlFancier posted:Uh, how would you know? This exactly! There is precisely ONE person that can say with certainty what someone's gender identity is...and that is that one person.
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Mar 29, 2016 04:48
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OwlFancier posted:Uh, how would you know? Because despite what Xir said up, I actually am a bit educated on this stuff since I've for years been in the orbit of trans/other lgbt communities and have inevitably read a lot of stuff from a lot of people, I've been a first hand witness to the rise of non binary and other neo pronouns and a good deal of people using them currently I wanna go "pffffft" to
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Mar 29, 2016 04:52
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Amused to Death posted:Because despite what Xir said up, I actually am a bit educated on this stuff since I've for years been in the orbit of trans/other lgbt communities and have inevitably read a lot of stuff from a lot of people, I've been a first hand witness to the rise of non binary and other neo pronouns and a good deal of people using them currently I wanna go "pffffft" to Does that make you psychic?
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Mar 29, 2016 04:53
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Amused to Death posted:Because despite what Xir said up, I actually am a bit educated on this stuff since I've for years been in the orbit of trans/other lgbt communities and have inevitably read a lot of stuff from a lot of people, I've been a first hand witness to the rise of non binary and other neo pronouns and a good deal of people using them currently I wanna go "pffffft" to Your opinion on someone else's identity doesn't matter one IOTA. You can "pffffft" til you pass out, and be as closeminded and arrogant as you drat well please and its not going to change the simple fact that you. Are. Wrong. You haven't the faintest idea what is going on in the head of a non-binary individual because you have already decided that their experience is somehow faulty and not worth incorporating into your limited little worldview.
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Mar 29, 2016 04:54
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OwlFancier posted:Does that make you psychic? We can't rule it out
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Mar 29, 2016 04:55
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Amused to Death posted:We can't rule it out Ahh good; so you are just trolling. Glad to know I can safely just discount everything you've posted as some manner of performance art rather than being sad that someone with those opinions actually exists.
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Mar 29, 2016 04:57
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jivjov posted:Ahh good; so you are just trolling. Glad to know I can safely just discount everything you've posted as some manner of performance art rather than being sad that someone with those opinions actually exists. Actually while I am trolling a bit I also fully believe in what I was saying, and to make it worse you have to accept the fact these opinions are coming from a leftist trans person, not your Trump voting aunt at the family dinner (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 29, 2016 05:00
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I have a lovely image of some goon on a chair dispensing gender idenities like some kind of marginally more horrifying version of king minos.
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Mar 29, 2016 05:02
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Amused to Death posted:Actually while I am trolling a bit I also fully believe in what I was saying, and to make it worse you have to accept the fact these opinions are coming from a leftist trans person, not your Drumpf voting aunt at the family dinner Oh; okay; so you do in fact believe that non-binary people don't exist. I feel very sorry for any trans individuals in your life that you marginalize with your toxic attitude, but am secure in the fact that you're fundamentally incorrect. OwlFancier posted:I have a lovely image of some goon on a chair dispensing gender idenities like some kind of marginally more horrifying version of king minos. Goddamn; excellent reference. Well done.
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Mar 29, 2016 05:05
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Amused to Death posted:Because despite what Xir said up, I actually am a bit educated on this stuff since I've for years been in the orbit of trans/other lgbt communities and have inevitably read a lot of stuff from a lot of people, I've been a first hand witness to the rise of non binary and other neo pronouns and a good deal of people using them currently I wanna go "pffffft" to For what it's worth, I know a fair number of non-binary folks in real, for real life. Many of them have put just as much thought as both of us have into gender stuff and honestly find themselves in identification with neither gender. Mostly they seem happy with singular "they" though. Which nicely sidesteps many of the most contentious bits of this thread. At least aside from the idiotic poo poo about how we can scientifically determine people's true gender or how we just need to load up harder on reparative therapy/drugs and it'll really start working this time.
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Mar 29, 2016 05:18
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