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Xae posted:They should increase the Point value of the ship by 5% per level past 1. Straight percent is really not that great because not all upgrades are equally strong (and never will be). Every upgrade needs it's own points cost, so you can properly balance them (like in every other wargame, including the original BFG). They'd probably have to pump up the max points of most matches by a few points (100 more might do it) but that's a ridiculously simple change and it's not like anyone is going to run out of ships to deploy - that's what escorts are for. DatonKallandor fucked around with this message at 12:00 on Mar 29, 2016 |
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Mar 29, 2016 11:53
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Psykmoe posted:But every cruiser that's not chaos lacks dorsal turrets so that's not really a unique Dominator problem either. Yeah, Imperial cruisers are pure line ships meant for stand off type engagements. IIRC even the little sword class was a broadside ship on tabletop, you can see the little casemate guns just behind the prow. If you want trickery, that's what torpedoes are for.
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Mar 29, 2016 12:17
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I'm having a blast running two Slaughters with mark of Slaanesh, speed boosts, and one with the sensor jamming. I keep them in very tight formation with a pair of Tzeentch Hellraisers and they can just cruise past enemy formations at 275 and gang up on any enemy that leaves formation. Works really well in just about any mission since you can engage whenever you want and just keep running if the odds aren't good. Only really has problems with really disciplined enemies who hide in a corner, or Taunt-chainers. Sometimes it has problems with stealing the data or assassinating a Retribution or whatever really difficult task but I don't need to win every single game. Does Camo upgrade the time on Winds of Change? Would be pretty boss if I could stay cloaked for 90 seconds at a time.
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Mar 29, 2016 12:31
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Yep, it does, and with max leveled slaves, your cooldown for special order is only ~100 seconds as well. You can pretty much stay cloaked 90% of the time. I am thinking of ways to counter chain taunt, perhaps chain dropping a few stasis bombs can minimize damage taken, especially if they start taunting from further away. Why did they increase the cd on stasis again? pedro0930 fucked around with this message at 13:35 on Mar 29, 2016 |
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Mar 29, 2016 13:03
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Arghy posted:I fought against you! Arghy posted:Yeah but most cruisers don't feel the loss so keenly as the dominator and honestly you never want to get that close to another ship unless their chaos in which point it won't matter anyhow. Most dominators i've come across are kitted out for ranged work and just get slaughtered up close. Even my SM favor dominator thats kitted for broadsides seems to just suck at it. Every battle i bring it to it either gets destroyed or heavily damaged unless i use it to sit back and lob nova cannon shots. I think its the lack of turreted weapons--even a full broadside with AP macros isn't that big of a deal. You need to get multiple volleys in and your getting hit right back.
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Mar 29, 2016 14:28
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I keep getting kicked out to the main menu during fights and I have no idea why. It's really annoying when I'm about to win, too! It's really annoying getting 600 and higher point games when I only have two ships of the line left, too. Guess it's time for more ork escort spam! Jarvisi fucked around with this message at 14:44 on Mar 29, 2016 |
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Mar 29, 2016 14:41
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Sgt. Anime Pederast posted:It's really annoying getting 600 and higher point games when I only have two ships of the line left, too. Guess it's time for more ork escort spam! I did this the other night and it was amazing. I got rolled one match and was in the exact same situation. The next game I took both ships and 16 ram ships. It was glorious.
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Mar 29, 2016 14:51
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Takkaryx posted:I had a great game where I had three Dominators in a wedge formation, and a pack of swords off to the side. The ork player jammed the cogitator slow and MWJ'd a bunch of ships circling the lead Dom and Big Red Buttons. I guess I was faster on the draw, cause I push the invuln shields before he can taunt it. He lets up the cogitator, and I immediately jam it, full stop and MWJ my other two doms *backwards*, which puts me juuuussstt in minimum range for 2 nova cannons, which I center on my Dom. A quick prayer to the Emperor as I unpause, AAF and lock on the two Doms and my escorts. Both novas go off, cripple a bunch of his ships, my Dom's fine, and I sweep up. My hands were shaking after, I was so wired. This is really clever.  Cool enough it should be like, a named maneuver. The "Takkaryx Maneuver" is now when you fire novas at your own invincible-shielded ship to splash nearby enemies.
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Mar 29, 2016 15:45
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I'm starting to think Convoy needs to be reworked. Its too easy to waste transports with novas or ramming attacks. A blob of Brutes or Dominators is all you really need to win and there isn't all that much the defender can do to stop you unless they're packing stasis bombs on every single one of their ships.
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Mar 29, 2016 16:41
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The_Angry_Turtle posted:I'm starting to think Convoy needs to be reworked. Its too easy to waste transports with novas or ramming attacks. A blob of Brutes or Dominators is all you really need to win and there isn't all that much the defender can do to stop you unless they're packing stasis bombs on every single one of their ships. Doubling the number of transports would be a great start. I'd love to swim into a blob of weedy escorts.
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Mar 29, 2016 16:50
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They had to nerf nova cannons in tabletop right off the bat as well. A hitscan weapon with a huge engagement range is not a great idea for game balance. Doesn't help that it looks like launch bays have been severely nerfed from tabletop in the vidya game. That was necessary too as unlimited ordnance broke the game, but having one stupidly long-ranged weapon nerfed and one not is dumb. I bet they will have to nerf nova cannon dispersion. The big problem with BFG right from the beginning is that it couldn't decide if it wanted to be WWI or WWII naval combat. In real life over-the-horizon cannon fire (nova cannon) and to a much greater extent strike aircraft were totally dominant over line-of-battle ships. Trying to make both viable is a recipe for trouble.
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Mar 29, 2016 16:51
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Xae posted:They should increase the Point value of the ship by 5% per level past 1. I disagree, personally. Skill selection is a big deal and there are a lot of good options that aren't taunt. Granted, nearly everyone is taking MWJ on every ship (I know I am!) but committing both a skill slot (taunt) and a use of your MWJ, in addition to an upgrade slot? I think that's more than enough commitment to receive the desired effect (dragging a kiting opponent towards you). I've been playing orks at max rank admiral, and while I do definitely use taunt, there's other compelling options competing for those limited slots - WAAAAAGH, MWJ, maneuver refuel, etc. Only my BCs and Battleship actually carry it due to skill slot limitations. While it's absolutely very strong, it's also kind of necessary as orks to have a hope against anyone kiting you - your ships are noticeably slower and your gun range is hot loving trash. In the time it takes me to close, taunt, and then dumpster a ship, I've taken some serious hits from anyone built for long ranged fighting. I think the thing really frustrating people is fights against orks tend to be bloody. Orks are really good (better than the IN, certainly) at making sure even if they lose, you've got a ship or two destroyed or heavily damaged, unless they just get thoroughly outplayed. As orks, even when I'm losing I still generally make it hurt. 
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Mar 29, 2016 16:58
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Maybe just get rid of the destroyed and heavily damaged penalty then? If I had one complaint about the game it would be that.
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Mar 29, 2016 17:09
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2 SPOOKY posted:I disagree, personally. Skill selection is a big deal and there are a lot of good options that aren't taunt. Granted, nearly everyone is taking MWJ on every ship (I know I am!) but committing both a skill slot (taunt) and a use of your MWJ, in addition to an upgrade slot? I think that's more than enough commitment to receive the desired effect (dragging a kiting opponent towards you). Maybe it's more of an IN problem than a Chaos one, but the only Imperial Navy ships that are faster than ork ships of the same class are the Dauntless and maybe the Retribution. Yeah they corner better with high energy turn but that's about it. Unfortunately, even in a scenario where an IN player rocks all the mobility upgrades and skills (speed, turning, MWJ etc) and the ork player doesn't, the IN's kiting weaponry is kind of trash. All the good broadside weapons top out at 9k (that's with using yet another upgrade slot), well within range of various skills, there's only 3 ships total with 12k base range lances in dorsal turrets, and plasma macro guns have the usual accuracy issues with macro weaponry (even with the targeting upgrade you're at like 40% at 12k) Plasma macros do worse damage than normal macros, are affected by armor, and have poor accuracy at the ranges one would like to engage orks at. Add the fact that all ork line ships have more hitpoints for their class and even successful kiting feels extremely tedious. I'm okay with this. Orks are close range kings and Chaos are best at long range, I don't mind if IN isn't the best at either. Chaos lance boats don't do that much damage by numbers, but they're consistent  None of this would be a problem if taunt didn't exist in its current form. All other means of bracketing or boxing in an enemy fleet still allow for gameplay attempts to lessen the impact. Play and counterplay. And the opportunity cost of actually making an Imperial fleet able to stay ahead of orks and do at least some reliable damage at range isn't exactly smaller than the opportunity cost of selecting Taunt as a skill. Taunt has no real counter outside 'not caring about the ship that's about to be overrun'. At least the traktor beam for the Evil Sunz can be countered to some extend with all ahead full if they just pull you back a bit, bombs can be dodged, although that can of course mean slowing down and letting the enemy catch up. If your ship gets taunted, even just once without chaining it, you get to watch it slowly turn about and waste its time. Even if you microjump away afterwards, it'll have taken guaranteed damage by the catching up ork fleet. It's just crappy gameplay to take away all control. Really, you're suiciding into the enemy for making fun of you, but you won't turn on overcharged void shields or issue the Brace for Impact call? Okay, captain. I wish I could just execute my captain for apparently not having the discipline to set the comms to mute when the orks are yelling UR MOM. Yes, even though executing the captain causes a guaranteed crit now. At least then I'm making a choice in reaction to what the other player is attempting. Even if that choice is just "Watch my ship sail into the teeth of crazy 3k range ork guns or permanently nerf my ship for the rest of the fight."Taunt is just weirdly non-interactive. Psykmoe fucked around with this message at 17:57 on Mar 29, 2016 |
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Mar 29, 2016 17:36
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That's fair. I certainly wouldn't mind seeing people being able to activate other skills while taunted - at that point, you're trading cooldowns. My only concern is that playing keep away can win a lot of the current game modes. In Cruiser Clash, sure, you might have the time to slowly corner and out maneuver the other player even with slower ships, but there's currently a fair few modes where games last 3-4 minutes which isn't really enough time for that to play out. Maybe it's a game mode problem at its root, then, having modes that are so short.
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Mar 29, 2016 17:59
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The gimmicky games modes are a big issue. Like, the shock attack gun being able to steal the data from across the map is probably unintended, but Chaos, for example, is really well-suited to playing keep away. They can field a fleet with 225 base speed across the board if they want, Tzeentch flavor is extremely useful because you can switch places with the warp echo decoy across the map. Even their non-Slaughter cruisers and BCs have higher base speed than the competition. IN at least gets decently quick light cruisers. Orks have to take a specific favor to get silent running and also can't extend its duration via upgrade. Plus, think of what you might want to put on a dedicated assassination/data recovery defender ship. Okay. Speed, turning. MWD. Maybe the instant gauge refuel if you can take two skills. Oh. That's all stuff orks already want to even get to grips with enemies in any other game mode too And if they're attacking, Taunt is huge crutch because the time limit is short and outplaying a dedicated chaos or even IN ship equipped for those modes is slow and tedious. Orks, in some ways, feel really unsuited to data recovery and to some extend assassination, and it's just dumb game design to patch that up with Taunt.
Psykmoe fucked around with this message at 18:16 on Mar 29, 2016 |
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Mar 29, 2016 18:11
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I'm thinking about doing a gimmick build for my Ork battleship. Micro warp, turning speed, speed, quick refuel and traktor kanon for the ultimate ramming ship.
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Mar 29, 2016 18:21
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Demiurge4 posted:I'm thinking about doing a gimmick build for my Ork battleship. Micro warp, turning speed, speed, quick refuel and traktor kanon for the ultimate ramming ship. But +50% ramming damage on the "ultimate ramming ship"  Honestly I find the Traktor Kanon weirdly unintuitive. Maybe I'm just using it wrong? I have it automated on my ork ships with that favor, and they do a decent job. The AI is strangely fond of grabbing enemy escorts and slamming into them, which is hilarious.
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Mar 29, 2016 18:29
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Battleships take extra rramming damage? poo poo.
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Mar 29, 2016 18:32
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Demiurge4 posted:Battleships take extra rramming damage? poo poo. No no no. I was just saying the better favor for an ultimate ramming ship would probably be the Goff, which gives an extra boarding attempt and +50% ramming damage, rather than the Traktor Kanon. Goff battleships do hilarious things with ramming smaller ships. You can splat light cruisers on your windshield like they're escorts. It's great.
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Mar 29, 2016 18:59
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2 SPOOKY posted:No no no. I was just saying the better favor for an ultimate ramming ship would probably be the Goff, which gives an extra boarding attempt and +50% ramming damage, rather than the Traktor Kanon. Oh nice, I'll put the traktor on support ships then!
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Mar 29, 2016 19:06
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2 SPOOKY posted:But +50% ramming damage on the "ultimate ramming ship" You can control the direction the Traktor Kanon moves its target via click and drag.
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Mar 29, 2016 19:11
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Is there some sort of check the game engine performs before letting you ram ships? The controls seem really wonky and more times than not I can't pull off a ram because my ship veers off at the last second like it ran into an invisible jello ship.
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Mar 29, 2016 19:46
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How are you initiating the ram? I've never had any issues (except missing sometimes because lol aiming is hard) with just right click move-ordering my ship to a point past an enemy ship that sets them on a collision course.
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Mar 29, 2016 19:51
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Also make sure to use All Ahead Forwards whenever possible. That'll override their usual collision-avoiding behaviour, not to mention just make it straight-up easier to hit in the first place. Just make sure you don't right-click the target directly, since that'll make the AI try to maneuver to just shoot at the target.
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Mar 29, 2016 19:58
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Perestroika posted:Also make sure to use All Ahead Forwards whenever possible. That'll override their usual collision-avoiding behaviour, not to mention just make it straight-up easier to hit in the first place. Just make sure you don't right-click the target directly, since that'll make the AI try to maneuver to just shoot at the target. Yeah I'm an idiot and have not been doing this. First time I tried it, worked like a charm. Thanks! Can someone explain the best way to prevent a ship from warping away? Unzip and Attack fucked around with this message at 20:27 on Mar 29, 2016 |
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Mar 29, 2016 20:14
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Every boarding roll (boarding works, lightning strike works, assault boats are a maybe - I can't confirm those) has a chance of canceling a warp-out. The other option is taunting and slaneesh active, but only if they're used before the warp-out starts.
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Mar 29, 2016 20:34
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Board/Lightening striking gives a chance to stop the warp. Also I believe destroying the generators removes the ability flat out.
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Mar 29, 2016 20:34
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All these stats about the dominator doesn't change the fact it has the highest casualty rating of all my ships. It has the same broadside as the dauntless except it has 2 of them, if you have 2 dauntless cruisers you have more DPS then a dominator because you now have the same broadside and 2 light macro turrets. The fact is you have a slow cumbersome ship that attracts fire and needs to get close to do anything meaning you won't catch the targets you'll hurt the most and you won't win any fight against a target you can catch. I remember jumping my dominator into the middle of a chaos fleet formation thinking i'd just slaughter them. It was 2 hellbringers and that carrier cruiser so not a lot of fire power. I jump in the middle of them and proceed to take their shields to half while boarding a hellbringer doing nothing significant. What did they do in return? they all boarded the dominator destroying its deck, generator, and causing 2 fires. They need to change IN macro battery accuracy so you can reliably engage from 6k.
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Mar 29, 2016 20:42
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Arghy posted:It has the same broadside as the dauntless except it has 2 of them, if you have 2 dauntless cruisers you have more DPS then a dominator because you now have the same broadside and 2 light macro turrets. If the damage values work like I think they do, that's damage per gun. That would give the Dominator a broadside damage of 144 per volley. The Dauntless' volley is only 36 damage, so it's worth four Dauntless broadsides, not two. Light guns do fire faster so the dps number would be somewhat closer but it's still a big difference. Judging from the ginormous damage output of a Dominator at close range that seems about right to me. Elukka fucked around with this message at 20:52 on Mar 29, 2016 |
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Mar 29, 2016 20:49
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Excelsiortothemax posted:Board/Lightening striking gives a chance to stop the warp. A destroyed generator slows down the warp out charging (and completely disables shields for the rest of the match).
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Mar 29, 2016 20:51
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How do you target particular parts of a ship? That's the one button/toggle I haven't found yet. Thanks for all the help.
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Mar 29, 2016 20:52
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All this talk about how to balance Taunt, is silly, it just shouldn't be in the game to begin with. Its just a daft mechanic that doesn't make any drat sense. So some Ork Kaptain got on the viewscreen and shouted "lol, I fuked yer mom", and all of a sudden my highly trained Admiral, veteran of many battles, captaining an Inquisitorial ship suddenly loses all reason, starts frothing at the mouth with pure rage and turns his ship about in a suicidal charge at the enemy and orders his men not to do anything else upon pain of death? What a load of nonsense, the Commissar standing beside him would put a bullet in his head for that.  Besides Stasis Bomb is better anyway.
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Mar 29, 2016 20:55
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Unzip and Attack posted:How do you target particular parts of a ship? That's the one button/toggle I haven't found yet. Thanks for all the help. Just left click the enemy ship to select it, like you would one of your own. On the bottom in the UI you can change which subsystem you want to target in particular. Note that this doesn't actually guaranteed that that system is destroyed first, it just makes it somewhat more likely. In the same screen you can also set a target priority for the ship, which will influence what your ships will fire on when there are several targets available and how they use abilities set on auto-cast. It's a pretty great feature for properly focusing fire even in a huge kerfluffle.
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Mar 29, 2016 21:07
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Depends on the taunt, really- 'lol i fuked ur mum' isn't much, 'lol imma go to Terra and roger yer Emprah' is something that'd have the Commissar frothing at the very least.
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Mar 29, 2016 21:08
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"Commander, their admiral... he's... suggesting your very sexuality is, to him, simply a meme!"
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Mar 29, 2016 21:13
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Tindahbawx posted:All this talk about how to balance Taunt, is silly, it just shouldn't be in the game to begin with. It should be a damage bonus and speed boost, sure you now taunted that ship but holy poo poo he had you on speaker and everyone is working 110% to kill you now. Give it a long duration also so you really need to weigh its use, taunt the wrong ship and hes now dealing 30% more damage for 20 seconds and hes in broadside range.
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Mar 29, 2016 21:18
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Dandywalken posted:"Commander, their admiral... he's... suggesting your very sexuality is, to him, simply a meme!" 
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Mar 29, 2016 21:33
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Arghy posted:It should be a damage bonus and speed boost, sure you now taunted that ship but holy poo poo he had you on speaker and everyone is working 110% to kill you now. Give it a long duration also so you really need to weigh its use, taunt the wrong ship and hes now dealing 30% more damage for 20 seconds and hes in broadside range. It could increase turn rate and speed so that it has a great chance to ram the taunter. I would like that.
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Mar 29, 2016 21:34
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Tindahbawx posted:All this talk about how to balance Taunt, is silly, it just shouldn't be in the game to begin with. CommissarMega posted:Depends on the taunt, really- 'lol i fuked ur mum' isn't much, 'lol imma go to Terra and roger yer Emprah' is something that'd have the Commissar frothing at the very least. It also depends upon the forces. Maybe a veteran Admiral would be able to ignore the taunts, but an Ultramarines captain or a Ork warboss sure is gonna jump all over that bait. Smurfs never shut up about their honor. And didn't Behemoth explicitly taunt the Ultramarines' pride in order to make them engage more foolishly? Totally canon. You just gotta remember what a ridiculous setting 40k is 
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Mar 29, 2016 21:40
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