CanPol Megathread: Big Changus

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Legit Businessman: Sep 2, 2007

Legit Businessman fucked around with this message at 16:53 on Sep 9, 2022

# ? Mar 31, 2016 04:37

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# ? May 14, 2024 11:38

terrorist ambulance: Nov 5, 2009

Criminal justice issues shouldn't be decided on the basis of stories from the headlines and by people who have no knowledge or experience

# ? Mar 31, 2016 04:47

flakeloaf: Feb 26, 2003; Still better than android clock

It would be really nice if we had a way to keep shitstains like Basil Borutski in a box before they get around to committing the crime literally everyone who's ever had contact with the guy knew he was going to commit. I have no idea what shape that might take and I can promise you it would be abused pretty much instantly, but him getting freedom was a really bad idea.

A guy can make a few posts on facebook that vacillate between supporting and condemning ISIS and that guy can go to jail for precrime, but a dude who beat the poo poo out of every woman he'd met in increasingly violent and terrible ways can tell you to shove your peace bond up your rear end and there didn't seem to be any recourse.

flakeloaf fucked around with this message at 04:50 on Mar 31, 2016

# ? Mar 31, 2016 04:48

terrorist ambulance: Nov 5, 2009

flakeloaf posted:

It would be really nice if we had a way to keep shitstains like Basil Borutski in a box before they get around to committing the crime literally everyone who's ever had contact with the guy knew he was going to commit. I have no idea what shape that might take and I can promise you it would be abused pretty much instantly, but him getting freedom was a really bad idea.

Good of you to declare from your armchair and with the benefit of hindsight. Can you tell us what you think about some other murders you read about in the papers

# ? Mar 31, 2016 04:50

Jordan7hm: Feb 17, 2011; Lipstick Apathy

flakeloaf posted:

It would be really nice if we had a way to keep shitstains like Basil Borutski in a box before they get around to committing the crime literally everyone who's ever had contact with the guy knew he was going to commit. I have no idea what shape that might take and I can promise you it would be abused pretty much instantly, but him getting freedom was a really bad idea.

this right here is pretty much the problem.

I would also like longer sentences in general actually. I just think that even with longer sentences you would want to maintain a very robust parole system.

e: and more important than longer sentences is a significant increase in resources for corrections, especially at a provincial level. and mental health resources, so that those people don't just clog corrections.

# ? Mar 31, 2016 04:51

namaste friends: Sep 18, 2004; by Smythe

terrorist ambulance posted:

Criminal justice issues shouldn't be decided on the basis of stories from the headlines and by people who have no knowledge or experience

no you see, my point of view is valid because you don't need to be an expert in criminal justice and

# ? Mar 31, 2016 04:52

flakeloaf: Feb 26, 2003; Still better than android clock

terrorist ambulance posted:

Good of you to declare from your armchair and with the benefit of hindsight. Can you tell us what you think about some other murders you read about in the papers

Are you trying to make a point or are you just shitposting?

# ? Mar 31, 2016 04:53

terrorist ambulance: Nov 5, 2009

flakeloaf posted:

Are you trying to make a point or are you just shitposting?

I think the point is pretty clear, it's not shitposting just because it's critical of your obvious and boring posts

oh really, you think a guy who murdered some women should have been stopped before he did that. v. interesting stuff

# ? Mar 31, 2016 05:00

flakeloaf: Feb 26, 2003; Still better than android clock

I was wondering out loud about what the mechanism to keep a guy like him contained might look like. You don't have to be a lawyer to have opinions about that sort of stuff, you know.

Leaving aside the bucket of things he did after he got out that could've gotten him breached and the creative reasons why that didn't happen, why didn't they just breach him when he refused to sign the probation order in the first place? They knew he was a threat. I only know what the system looks like up to the part where you take the guy to FA court, everything that happens after that point is a dark mystery.

Are we going to get yet another "poorly-thought-out law named after a person" that tries to close a loophole that shouldn't have existed in the first place?

flakeloaf fucked around with this message at 05:13 on Mar 31, 2016

# ? Mar 31, 2016 05:11

Patrick Spens: Jul 21, 2006; "Every quarterback says they've got guts, But how many have actually seen 'em?"; Pillbug

I don't mind answering your questions, but I would appreciate if you would read my answers before asking more. I recommended fines for one of my answers. But yeah, I am aware of alternatives to prison terms.

The reason I was so heavy handed with sentencing in my answers was A) you asked me what I thought should happen, not was practicable, so I wasn't asking questions like "do we have a bed for this person anywhere." And part of it was that I don't think we treat crimes that make people unsafe with the respect they deserve.

If using more dangerous offender designations would require more funding for the courts than I am in favour of more funding for the courts. And why isn't "this guy has assaulted the same woman 3 times including after serving 2 sentences for assaulting that woman a clear enough case?

I work with group homes for developmentally delayed sex offenders.

Edit:

flakeloaf posted:

I was wondering out loud about what the mechanism to keep a guy like him contained might look like. You don't have to be a lawyer to have opinions about that sort of stuff, you know.

At the risk of being a flippant rear end in a top hat: We could say that this guy is an unusually dangerous person and decide that rather than being required to release him after a fixed period of time, he would need to demonstrate that he was no longer a threat those around him in order to be released. We could then make sure his case is reviewed, lets say every two years, to ensure that we are not imprisoning someone who is no longer a threat.

Somebody fucked around with this message at 17:18 on Sep 9, 2022

# ? Mar 31, 2016 05:20

terrorist ambulance: Nov 5, 2009

Even if they'd coerced him into signing the order with the threat of custody and he'd signed it, do you think he'd be any less likely to do what he did?

If the correctional authorities held every rear end in a top hat who thought that his sentence was unjust and he did nothing wrong in custody forever, we'd have incarceration statistics like North Korea or the US.

# ? Mar 31, 2016 05:22

apatheticman: May 13, 2003; Wedge Regret

Cultural Imperial posted:

Then stop voting.

I spoiled my ballot last federal election.

# ? Mar 31, 2016 05:26

Patrick Spens: Jul 21, 2006; "Every quarterback says they've got guts, But how many have actually seen 'em?"; Pillbug

terrorist ambulance posted:

Even if they'd coerced him into signing the order with the threat of custody and he'd signed it, do you think he'd be any less likely to do what he did?

If the correctional authorities held every rear end in a top hat who thought that his sentence was unjust and he did nothing wrong in custody forever, we'd have incarceration statistics like North Korea or the US.

If you are trying to make the case that longer prison terms aren't a good thing, attacking the effectiveness of probation orders is probably not the best way to go about it.

# ? Mar 31, 2016 05:44

Kafka Esq.: Jan 1, 2005; "If you ever even think about calling me anything but 'The Crab' I will go so fucking crab on your ass you won't even see what crab'd your crab" -The Crab(TM)

flakeloaf posted:

People say weird stuff when they're be-reeved.

Technically, we've been DE-reeved by Ford's death.

# ? Mar 31, 2016 08:59

Professor Shark: May 22, 2012

I'm off my Charity Probation now and I just wanted to give a shout out to PT6A, who donated $100 to the Alberta Children's Hospital Foundation. Overall we raised over $1500 USD for a bunch of great causes!

# ? Mar 31, 2016 10:54

Precambrian Video Games: Aug 19, 2002

The article says Borutski was ignoring court orders so maybe the solution involves enforcing them?

# ? Mar 31, 2016 12:13

flakeloaf: Feb 26, 2003; Still better than android clock

terrorist ambulance posted:

Even if they'd coerced him into signing the order with the threat of custody and he'd signed it, do you think he'd be any less likely to do what he did?

If the correctional authorities held every rear end in a top hat who thought that his sentence was unjust and he did nothing wrong in custody forever, we'd have incarceration statistics like North Korea or the US.

Realistically, no. Even if they'd put him back in the box right then, how long could they have kept him, a month? That's just kicking the can down the road. We can't hold him for precrime. He has rights, he's going to get out, and pretty much all we can do to protect his victims is to put him on conditions and hope someone notices him violating them before he does something terrible. Hell, we've released actual convicts whom we knew would do something terrible, and despite public warnings about it with the guy's picture on tv and everything, it still went badly.

Better monitoring sounds like an answer to me. It's great and all for people to be saying "oh yeah he was driving, he was within 100 metres, he wasn't being of good behaviour" now, but where were these observations when they mattered?

# ? Mar 31, 2016 12:52

Postess with the Mostest: Apr 4, 2007; Arabian nights
'neath Arabian moons
A fool off his guard
could fall and fall hard
out there on the dunes

eXXon posted:

The article says Borutski was ignoring court orders so maybe the solution involves enforcing them?

I agree with this guy. As usual, chronic OLP underfunding of important services is the real murderer.

quote:

�I just couldn�t really believe it that we didn�t get an immediate statement from the premier�s office,� said Pamela Cross, a Kingston lawyer who is a leading activist in preventing violence against women.

�I am a bit bewildered by why it hasn�t happened, because I do think (Wynne) is sincere in her desire to address violence against women.�

Three women � Nathalie Warmerdam, 48, Anastasia Kuzyk, 36, and Carol Culleton, 66 � were killed in their separate rural homes near Wilno on Sept. 22. Basil Borutski, who has a long history of violence against former partners and had had relationships with all of the women, was arrested after a five-hour manhunt. He is charged with three counts of first-degree murder.

...

Renfrew County has one probation officer who visits once a week.

For those who haven't visited our lovely, somewhat destitute county, it's 7000 square km or about the size of the GTA.

Edit: The Ontario Liberals are trading cash for access. How is that even legal? (Actual headline)

quote:

For instance, on Dec. 7 of last year, one of the banks involved in the privatization of Hydro One held a $7,500-per-person fundraiser that raked in $165,000 for the Ontario Liberals. The event was billed in an e-mail from the Bank of Nova Scotia executive who promoted it to his counterparts at other banks as a chance for �a small group of senior executives to spend an informal evening with the Ministers of Energy & Finance.�

Under Ontario�s extra-loose election finance laws, this appears to be legal. And yet, at the same time, the Criminal Code of Canada says anyone commits an indictable offence who, �having or pretending to have influence with the government or with a minister of the government or an official, demands, accepts or offers or agrees to accept for himself or another person a reward, advantage or benefit of any kind as consideration for co-operation, assistance, exercise of influence or an act or omission in connection with the transaction of business with or any matter of business relating to the government.�

That could fairly describe the Ontario Liberal Party. It is using its influence over cabinet ministers to sell access to the ministers to people who have a financial interest in the ministers� decisions.

Yes, as Ms. Wynne keeps saying, it is perfectly acceptable under Ontario law for corporations, unions and individuals to donate large sums of money to political parties. The spending limits are high, and the loopholes almost bottomless. Donors can write almost all the cheques they want and send them to the party or parties of their choice.

While there is no explicit promise of a quid pro quo in this exchange, there has always been a nudge-nudge, wink-wink relationship between large donors and the politicians they support. Nobody is donating out of the goodness of their heart. It�s a trade.

Postess with the Mostest fucked around with this message at 14:16 on Mar 31, 2016

# ? Mar 31, 2016 14:13

DariusLikewise: Oct 4, 2008; You wore that on Halloween?

I love this election

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/brandon-west-candidate-close-hospitals-1.3513428

quote:

The day after losing four candidates due to improper paperwork and another to disqualification for having been an enumerator, Manitoba's Liberal Party is again in the spotlight, this time for comments a Westman candidate made at a debate.

Billy Moore, the Liberal candidate in Brandon West, said he hasn't read the party's platform yet, but he is running on "love and harmony."

He's the second Liberal candidate in recent days to admit publicly to not having read the platform. Thompson candidate Inez Vystrcil-Spence declared the same at the beginning of a CBC News mini-debate this week on health care.

Moore said he decided to run "the Thursday before last."

He told those at a debate hosted by the Brandon Friendship Centre Wednesday that there are too many hospitals in Manitoba and that has driven up wait times.

"To me, when we have too many hospitals, psychologically people think they are sick because the hospital is there to use," Moore told CBC News afterwards. "And if we take one or two hospitals [out], you will see a difference."

"You will have no hospital to go to."

He said that he believes people are more inclined to use hospitals if more are available.

"People wouldn't want to get sick because they have nowhere to go. They would want to stay healthy and work," he told the approximately two dozen people in attendance at the debate.

Moore said the idea to close hospitals came from a personal analysis.

Moore is up against Progressive Conservative incumbent Reg Helwer and NDP candidate Linda Ross in the constituency.

Moore's comments came the same day the party's candidate in Gimli, Joanne Levy, dropped out. The NDP had complained about her working as an enumerator before she became a candidate. The Elections Act says enumerators cannot become candidates. Four other Liberal candidates also had their paperwork rejected.

CBC News has requested an interview with Liberal leader Rana Bokhari about Moore's comments but was not immediately available.

"I need to have a conversation with Bill, obviously," said party spokesperson Mike Brown Wednesday. "Some of our candidates are going to speak out and say things that aren't necessarily on target, and we allow that.

"We're not like the other parties. We don't regulate our candidates. When people ask to speak to them, we provide them."

# ? Mar 31, 2016 14:54

EvilJoven: Mar 18, 2005; NOBODY,IN THE HISTORY OF EVER, HAS ASKED OR CARED WHAT CANADA THINKS. YOU ARE NOT A COUNTRY. YOUR MONEY HAS THE QUEEN OF ENGLAND ON IT. IF YOU DIG AROUND IN YOUR BACKYARD, NATIVE SKELETONS WOULD EXPLODE OUT OF YOUR LAWN LIKE THE END OF POLTERGEIST. CANADA IS SO POLITE, EH?; Fun Shoe

I was just about to post that. The MB Libs are such a hilarious train wreck. I just hope the NDP manage to hang on to power so the Cons can't privatize hydro and car insurance.

# ? Mar 31, 2016 14:57

flakeloaf: Feb 26, 2003; Still better than android clock

Ikantski posted:

For those who haven't visited our lovely, somewhat destitute county, it's 7000 square km or about the size of the GTA.

If my job involved getting within a mile of this fuckin thing

you bet I'd only make it out there once a month, tops.

Ontario Auditor General posted:

At March 31, 2002, the Ministry employed approximately 770 probation and paroleofficers throughout the province. In addition, as part of the Program, the Ministrycontracts with selected community agencies to provide a variety of counselling andtreatment programs. As of April 1, 2004, there were about 1,100 probation andparole staff working throughout the province, of which about 700 were employed bythe Ministry. The balance of about 400 staff was transferred to the new Ministry ofChildren and Youth Services. In 2003/04, total program expenditures amounted toapproximately $95 million (approximately $82 million in 2001/02).

That's one officer for every 85 parolees/probation..eer..s (??). But at least they're well-trained and equipped to do thei

quote:

Significant findings included the following:
� The Ministry did not have adequate processes to ensure that probation and parole officers completed risk assessments for all offenders within the required six weeks of offenders� initial appointments
with an officer. Completing risk assessments is critical to establishing an effective rehabilitation plan for an offender.
� The Ministry did not have reliable information on offenders who breached the conditions of their release, nor did probation and parole officers use effective measures to ensure that conditions imposed by courts, such as curfews and house arrest, were enforced.
� Many probation and parole officers have not been trained to effectively oversee higher-risk offenders or those with mental health issues.
� Rehabilitation programs intended to reduce the risk of offenders reoffending are not consistently available across the province. About 40 of 100 probation and parole offices did not have core programs available, such as anger management and substance abuse programs.
� Contacts with community service providers for rehabilitative programming were not adequately managed to ensure payments were only for those offenders attending programs.

oh.

# ? Mar 31, 2016 15:05

Postess with the Mostest: Apr 4, 2007; Arabian nights
'neath Arabian moons
A fool off his guard
could fall and fall hard
out there on the dunes

Storyland freaks me out every single time I drive past it to get my cheap french beer. Also, there's much newer auditor data on the probation system

http://www.auditor.on.ca/en/content/annualreports/arreports/en14/301en14.pdf

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/national/reevely-ontarios-probation-system-in-shambles-auditor-reports

quote:

We�re talking about a system of 101 offices, with 800 probation officers, supervising 51,200 offenders on any given day. In one sense, obviously, it�s not surprising that 60.3 per cent of offenders who are considered very high risks to re-offend went on to commit fresh crimes in the year the auditor studied, 2010-2011. That�s what �very high risk� means. But these are also the offenders who are supposed to be monitored most closely and given the most help.

Most of the time � most of the time! � the system fails.

...

Corrections staff supervising offenders go through a five-week training course, which it is normal to take in bits and pieces over the first couple of years of their employment. But as Lysyk reports: �A number of officers hired over the last several years told us that they began supervising offenders without having received any formal training; a few were meeting offenders during their first day on the job.�

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ontario-probation-officers-understaffed-1.3245289

quote:

Gord Longhi, a probation officer for 25 years and current union leader, said there's no way of knowing what impact a probation officer could have had in the preventing the three deaths.

He said that when probation officers are able to keep a close eye on offenders � especially by doing home visits � they can help prevent tragedies, but said an understaffed department limits their ability to do so.

"We should be able to know what these people are doing in their homes and out in the community," he said. "Most officers rarely get out on home visits anymore. I'd be surprised if most officers do a couple a year."

Postess with the Mostest fucked around with this message at 15:25 on Mar 31, 2016

# ? Mar 31, 2016 15:23

PT6A: Jan 5, 2006; Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

The failures of the probation system should hardly be taken as a reason to impose harsher sentences or keep people imprisoned longer; rather, it should result in us fixing the issues in the probation system.

# ? Mar 31, 2016 15:26

quaint bucket: Nov 29, 2007

flakeloaf posted:

If my job involved getting within a mile of this fuckin thing

you bet I'd only make it out there once a month, tops.

That's one officer for every 85 parolees/probation..eer..s (??). But at least they're well-trained and equipped to do thei

oh.

I did parole work for 2 years.

I enjoyed both but I will definitely agree there's no real training for managing offenders with mental illnesses. High risk offenders, I don't think you can really train for that. It depends on the parole officer predisposition to really watch for the little signs.

I remember I busted some guy's request for parole because his new employment gave me a sketchy vibe. I guess it had something to do with it being a front for illegal businesses and they didn't account Google and phone book into consideration!

For most part, the officers I worked with are pretty good at what they do but that's just my experience in the prison system and community parole.

I miss reading the case files.

# ? Mar 31, 2016 15:36

Patrick Spens: Jul 21, 2006; "Every quarterback says they've got guts, But how many have actually seen 'em?"; Pillbug

PT6A posted:

The failures of the probation system should hardly be taken as a reason to impose harsher sentences or keep people imprisoned longer; rather, it should result in us fixing the issues in the probation system.

That depends on what the problem is. If the issue is just that we don't have the staff/they aren't trained enough then yeah, that's fixable within the probation system.

If the issue is that probation officers are being asked to monitor people in the community who should not be in the community, then longer imprisonment is an answer.

# ? Mar 31, 2016 15:39

DariusLikewise: Oct 4, 2008; You wore that on Halloween?

EvilJoven posted:

I was just about to post that. The MB Libs are such a hilarious train wreck. I just hope the NDP manage to hang on to power so the Cons can't privatize hydro and car insurance.

The Liberals imploding should be enough to get anyone that was going to vote for them back into the NDP camp I would think. An NDP minority sounds like the best outcome for the province.

# ? Mar 31, 2016 16:46

A Typical Goon: Feb 25, 2011

Patrick Spens posted:

That depends on what the problem is. If the issue is just that we don't have the staff/they aren't trained enough then yeah, that's fixable within the probation system.

If the issue is that probation officers are being asked to monitor people in the community who should not be in the community, then longer imprisonment is an answer.

I work in the criminal justice system and its the first one. Most probation officers are awful and do very little to help the people the are supposed to be monitoring.

# ? Mar 31, 2016 16:51

namaste friends: Sep 18, 2004; by Smythe

And here you all are talking about strengthening government unions.

# ? Mar 31, 2016 17:02

A Typical Goon: Feb 25, 2011

Cultural Imperial posted:

And here you all are talking about strengthening government unions.

Strengthening unions is a Good Thing and I don't get why some many Canadians are fervently anti-Union

# ? Mar 31, 2016 17:12

CLAM DOWN: Feb 13, 2007

A Typical Goon posted:

Strengthening unions is a Good Thing and I don't get why some many Canadians are fervently anti-Union

While I am overall not anti union, because of a certain BC union from my last job I will actively avoid ever working anywhere in the future where I have to join one.

# ? Mar 31, 2016 17:17

Jan: Feb 27, 2008; The disruptive powers of excessive national fecundity may have played a greater part in bursting the bonds of convention than either the power of ideas or the errors of autocracy.

A Typical Goon posted:

I don't get why some many Canadians are fervently anti-Union

Because those filthy public employees already have the best pensions ever and yet they keep asking for more! :bahgawd:

# ? Mar 31, 2016 17:18

DariusLikewise: Oct 4, 2008; You wore that on Halloween?

A Typical Goon posted:

Strengthening unions is a Good Thing and I don't get why some many Canadians are fervently anti-Union

Because rather than get angry at their own situation most people would rather blame unions and union employees for being greedy.

# ? Mar 31, 2016 17:23

Patrick Spens: Jul 21, 2006; "Every quarterback says they've got guts, But how many have actually seen 'em?"; Pillbug

DariusLikewise posted:

The Liberals imploding should be enough to get anyone that was going to vote for them back into the NDP camp I would think. An NDP minority sounds like the best outcome for the province.

It's Manitoba, we are going to swing back to a Conservative sooner or later. A Brian Pallister lead minority government strikes me as a not so bad version of something that is coming sooner or later.

A Typical Goon posted:

I work in the criminal justice system and its the first one. Most probation officers are awful and do very little to help the people the are supposed to be monitoring.

I don't have a ton of experience with P.Os, but the ones I have met have all been on the ball and helpful. But they are working with a fairly elaborate support system, I don't know how things go with more typical offenders.

Patrick Spens fucked around with this message at 17:31 on Mar 31, 2016

# ? Mar 31, 2016 17:26

Wistful of Dollars: Aug 25, 2009

A Typical Goon posted:

Strengthening unions is a Good Thing and I don't get why some many Canadians are fervently anti-Union

Scapegoats and believing you're a temporarily depressed millionare.

# ? Mar 31, 2016 17:30

Baronjutter: Dec 31, 2007; "Tiny Trains"

They rather other people have less and be in the same lovely situation their own situation improving. Or they're realistic enough to know the working class is hosed and absolutely lost the "class war" so just drag all the crabs back into the pot and dehumanize your self and face to bloodshed.

Basically it's a lot easier to build populist pressure to dismantle the few strongish unions we have left in society than to build some sort of new pro-labour social movement. Happiness is judged mostly relative to others, so by dragging government employees down they're making their own lives a tiny bit better.

# ? Mar 31, 2016 17:47

DariusLikewise: Oct 4, 2008; You wore that on Halloween?

Bring back the General Strike

# ? Mar 31, 2016 17:54

namaste friends: Sep 18, 2004; by Smythe

then maybe you dumb shitstains shoudl stop complaining about lousy government employees

# ? Mar 31, 2016 18:01

A Typical Goon: Feb 25, 2011

Cultural Imperial posted:

then maybe you dumb shitstains shoudl stop complaining about lousy government employees

Unions are good for people. It's a shame most people are useless

# ? Mar 31, 2016 18:22

Helsing: Aug 23, 2003; DON'T POST IN THE ELECTION THREAD UNLESS YOU JOE BIDEN

CI you've been particularly incoherent since getting off your last probation. I hope you're giving your liver a bit of down time, we wouldn't want to lose CanPol's the closest thing it has to its own Rob Ford.

CLAM DOWN posted:

While I am overall not anti union, because of a certain BC union from my last job I will actively avoid ever working anywhere in the future where I have to join one.

Economies with higher union densities tend to be much better for the average worker but unfortunately individual unions are still just bureaucracies staffed by human beings and they can be every bit as inefficient, alienating or illogical as any other form of bureaucracy.

# ? Mar 31, 2016 18:27

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# ? May 14, 2024 11:38

The Butcher: Apr 20, 2005; Well, at least we tried.; Nap Ghost

CLAM DOWN posted:

"He's the mayor of heaven now"

http://www.cbc.ca/news2/interactives/breaking/ford-funeral/

smoking rocks with the angels :angel:

# ? Mar 31, 2016 18:28

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > CanPol Megathread: Big Changus

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