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They should have actually made the broccoli stand have three points of contact instead of one. Wriggle wriggle.
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Apr 3, 2016 11:23
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I'm probably never going to use the thing because I'm not a fan of large-base ships to begin with. The Attack Shuttle, on the other hand, is pretty awesome.
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Apr 3, 2016 11:28
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Endman posted:I reckon they should have kept it as a large-base rather than Epic ship, but they should have modelled it in the Epic scale. I agree; part of the reason why I'm holding off buying one is because it's just so big! I wouldn't be able to fit it in my case at all, and I don't really have any shelf-space to spare, either. On the other hand, all those upgrades that I could use with other Rebel ships (and the shuttle)... Also, I'm struggling to think of a good third ship for a Contracted Scout+Trandoshan Slaver combo. I've tried the Mist Hunter which is decent enough, but I feel I could do better with it (just a shame I can't really afford Guri unless I ditch the torps and EPT on the JM). My current version of the list is the following: quote:N'Dru Suhlak — Z-95 Headhunter 17 Going for a decent alpha-strike with Manaroo+N'Dru, with the slaver likely being the main late-game damage dealer, assuming I can keep the opposition in-arc. (Only really upgraded the Scout to Manaroo because I had the spare points and the ability could be useful for N'Dru) Although I dunno, I'm not sure if I'm so keen on a lone Z supporting the JM and YV, even if it is N'Dru. Does anyone else have experience running lists with both the JM and the YV? If so, I'd greatly appreciate some input - I'm just failing to come up with any other solutions, other than going back to the G1A or using a naked Talonbane (who'll likely die early on, what with him having "focus-fire me ASAP" written on his forehead)
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Apr 3, 2016 11:52
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Endman posted:I reckon they should have kept it as a large-base rather than Epic ship, but they should have modelled it in the Epic scale. Epic scale is (IIRC) 1:500 compared to the regular 1:270, so the Ghost would have been tiny in Epic scale; and frankly looked ridiculous next to every other ship. The bigger issue with comparing the Ghost to the GR-75 is that the Rebel Transport just doesn't translate well to the scale shift. GR-75s look small next to bog-standard X-Wings, since the command pod ends up being about the same size as an X-Wing cockpit. Epic scale works a lot better with the Raider and Corvette. Major Isoor posted:Also, I'm struggling to think of a good third ship for a Contracted Scout+Trandoshan Slaver combo. I've tried the Mist Hunter which is decent enough, but I feel I could do better with it (just a shame I can't really afford Guri unless I ditch the torps and EPT on the JM). My current version of the list is the following: My pal got beat by double Jumpmasters and N'Dru during the first or second round of the second cut at Hoth Open, but I think in practice it's probably tough to use him as an alpha strike along with two large ships, and I imagine it's much easier to hold him back as a second strike or finisher to make sure you get all the bonuses for being outside Range 2. I guess if you're holding the slaver back he could work in the initial joust. I just think the Slaver is about the most awful closer imaginable, and any list with average dials is going to be able to get around one and stay around it if you're aiming for the Slaver to be around the longest, past your support. Especially without Engine Upgrade to help you swing around faster. e: I was fooling around with Latts Razzi and Dengar for a little bit, but only a game or two, and only built a list with Contracted Scout, Slaver, and Mist Hunter without playing at all, so I can't say I've got a ton of experience, but I don't think it's a poor combination in theory.
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Apr 3, 2016 14:43
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I think one of the biggest problems for rebels right now and even moreso in the future is tractor beam. Any small ship with 2 green dice or less has a world of pain heading it's way in Imperial Veterans. It may not do direct damage but putting you on a rock and all the effects of that really hurt. I think any winning rebel list needs to be based around at least one large ship that can at least shoot every round, and or high PS Aces, to at least get shots off. Ruthless Vessery would give me pause on a Z swarm also.
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Apr 3, 2016 14:44
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Epic scale is variable, that's the thing. The GR75 and the Corvette are in different scales. It's easy enough to see a size comparison: https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=c...rN7PHV7ObIhM%3A - having it the same scale as the CR90 probably would have been fine. hoiyes posted:I think one of the biggest problems for rebels right now and even moreso in the future is tractor beam. Any small ship with 2 green dice or less has a world of pain heading it's way in Imperial Veterans. It may not do direct damage but putting you on a rock and all the effects of that really hurt. I think any winning rebel list needs to be based around at least one large ship that can at least shoot every round, and or high PS Aces, to at least get shots off. Ruthless Vessery would give me pause on a Z swarm also. Seriously: the rocks are the least of the problems with tractor beams. The range control and agility penalties are by FAR more important, from experience of testing it since it was spoiled.
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Apr 3, 2016 14:45
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hoiyes posted:I think one of the biggest problems for rebels right now and even moreso in the future is tractor beam. Any small ship with 2 green dice or less has a world of pain heading it's way in Imperial Veterans. It may not do direct damage but putting you on a rock and all the effects of that really hurt. I think any winning rebel list needs to be based around at least one large ship that can at least shoot every round, and or high PS Aces, to at least get shots off. Ruthless Vessery would give me pause on a Z swarm also. Problem with large ship rebels, besides their inherent weakness to TLTs and ordnance, is that the Tractor Beam turns off the YT-1300's C-3P0, and taking Dash down to 1 green really hurts him, at least if he's not out of arc of everything else. Dash's HLC however has trouble getting damage through on autothrusters and/or stealth devices without dice modification. Although I'm kinda curious if something like Han/PtL/Kanaan/Jan/Title/Engine Upgrade along with a pair of concussion missile Talas for alpha would do okay. Being able to alpha down a jumpmaster and then either boost out of arc with Han or double evade. I think Imperials would still tear up Han without Gunner over time, though.
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Apr 3, 2016 14:51
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hoiyes posted:I think one of the biggest problems for rebels right now and even moreso in the future is tractor beam. Any small ship with 2 green dice or less has a world of pain heading it's way in Imperial Veterans. It may not do direct damage but putting you on a rock and all the effects of that really hurt. I think any winning rebel list needs to be based around at least one large ship that can at least shoot every round, and or high PS Aces, to at least get shots off. Ruthless Vessery would give me pause on a Z swarm also. yep. most of the ships that could survive tractor beam have been pushed out already by JM5K or Palp Aces. others, like Dash, get hosed because somehow they decided to make Tractor beams fire at range 3.
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Apr 3, 2016 14:56
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What about Lone Wolf Poe? If you're already dropping to PS8 for Luke, why not for Poe as well? Also, 4 ship list with Lone Wolf is going to be very tough to fly and actually have LW be active. Not impossible, but you're basically not going to have Luke in the fight during the first turn of shooting unless you can get him waaaay out on a flank.
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Apr 3, 2016 15:43
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Anybody have links to the tournament?
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Apr 3, 2016 15:58
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The Gate posted:What about Lone Wolf Poe? If you're already dropping to PS8 for Luke, why not for Poe as well? Also, 4 ship list with Lone Wolf is going to be very tough to fly and actually have LW be active. Not impossible, but you're basically not going to have Luke in the fight during the first turn of shooting unless you can get him waaaay out on a flank. PS10 is slightly better on Poe since he has Boost on his dial, and Lone Wolf is situationally less of a jump on the defensive when he's already got Autothrusters. The extra point probably matters more as well since he's more expensive than Luke is.
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Apr 3, 2016 16:06
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guts and bolts posted:I'm pretty sure Strobe is still running XXX no matter what, though. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9RVS8cjNN0
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Apr 3, 2016 16:34
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thespaceinvader posted:Seriously: the rocks are the least of the problems with tractor beams. The range control and agility penalties are by FAR more important, from experience of testing it since it was spoiled. I'd disagree, though I've not played many games, and none with the Defender double tap, which obviously loves dragging a hapless victim into range 1 for a two dice swing in it's favor. However Zuckuss PS 9 loves setting up the opponent at range 1 with no action to make his ability shine, while denying a shot is the holy grail of X-Wing Take That. Rolling for damage 2x on the rock is just the sweet crit-centered cherry on top. Ultimately though it really depends on squad set-up.
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Apr 3, 2016 17:28
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Say what you want about Sheev, he ended up being a great fix to get the Lambda in the meta. 
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Apr 3, 2016 17:31
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Getting your shot turned off by a tractoroid on the opening joust is so disastrous I'm just going to run debris.
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Apr 3, 2016 17:38
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I'm considering a Lothal Rebel tactical jammer/autoblaster/AC build paired with superdash, with the idea that the large ships patrol the outside of the board with Dash on the outside playing like a cover shooter. Ghost autoblaster discourages close attacks, and front guns on the Ghost discourages flanking
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Apr 3, 2016 17:44
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General Battuta posted:Getting your shot turned off by a tractoroid on the opening joust is so disastrous I'm just going to run debris. What's the current list, good General, and what's getting you tractored? Most tractor beams I'm running into are either low PS chumps built with a bunch of other low PS ships, or Mist Hunters at PS 7. Vessery, thanks to the lack of released title, hasn't been seeing a lot of play in my area (especially not with VI). If that's a problem, there are ways to deploy such that you avoid being within tractor beam threat range of an asteroid anyway.
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Apr 3, 2016 17:51
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Thanks for the advice guys!
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Apr 3, 2016 18:11
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hoiyes posted:I think one of the biggest problems for rebels right now and even moreso in the future is tractor beam. Any small ship with 2 green dice or less has a world of pain heading it's way in Imperial Veterans. It may not do direct damage but putting you on a rock and all the effects of that really hurt. I think any winning rebel list needs to be based around at least one large ship that can at least shoot every round, and or high PS Aces, to at least get shots off. Ruthless Vessery would give me pause on a Z swarm also. Imperial Veterans being overpowered has been my opinion for a while, and the latest results and meta-shifting as a consequence of wave 8 have done nothing to dissuade that notion. Since I started playing has been, granted, like four months and some change I think? but it has been a non-stop string of Empire buffs, and then Empire players complaining about Rebels anyway. Locally this has been especially comical, with a frequent high-placing finisher running POW saying that Wave 8 would make "Empire not even a faction" (paraphrasing). Yeah, sure is Empire that's been struggling, what with Omega Leader's release, The Inquisitor's release, the continued Palp aces shitshow and Veterans looming. Empire, surely, is the weakest faction. Tangent aside, I think that Tractor Beam is not all that worrisome for the Rebels - not any more than the rest of the nonsense that's happened recently. Vessery/TAP/OL is a scary list, to be sure, but there are a lot of ways to handle it within faction. The problem is that lists in Rebels that beat aces get crushed by 3JM5K, and vice-versa. Trying to find a list that can deal with aces and ordnance in about equal measure is the only viable option at present in a highly competitive scene. I'm not sure it's possible, but I'm also not willing to just toss it in and say it's impossible, either. alg posted:yep. most of the ships that could survive tractor beam have been pushed out already by JM5K or Palp Aces. others, like Dash, get hosed because somehow they decided to make Tractor beams fire at range 3. Tractor Beam firing at range 3 is arguably as big a mistake as printing a range 3 turret, except they had all the time in the world to realize the mistake they made with TLT and then made it again anyway. I love X-Wing, but some of the design decisions that keep getting made strike me as incredibly weird and/or bad. This is one of them. It would be one thing if TIE/D didn't exist, since you'd be trading all of the damage on a higher-than-the-rest-of-your-list PS ship in exchange for maximizing the other shots, but it will exist, so there's that. The Gate posted:What about Lone Wolf Poe? If you're already dropping to PS8 for Luke, why not for Poe as well? Also, 4 ship list with Lone Wolf is going to be very tough to fly and actually have LW be active. Not impossible, but you're basically not going to have Luke in the fight during the first turn of shooting unless you can get him waaaay out on a flank. Strategically my plan has been to just leave the Zs and the stresshog clumped in a formation, and having Luke start nearer than your average split-off ace but also putting him at 90 degrees from my edge of the mat. Taking advantage of the speed 3 banks and turns is crucial, and if they decide to chase Luke, you can just not turn in. It's hard, but I think it's doable. With regards to Lone Wolf Poe, he's too expensive at 39 points compared to LW Luke (34), VI/PTL/PRockets Jake (33), or Wedge Antilles (34). If you start from the Gray/Z/Z shell, you just don't have the salary cap space to make it happen. More to the point, I'm not sure LW Poe is even as good as LW Luke in a lot of ways, particularly when it comes to action denial of any kind (stress, bumping, rocks, whatever). If you wanted a solid-offense primary gun who doesn't immediately melt under fire, LW Luke feels like the choice. I'm not sure that the "jack of all trades regen ace" is viable in the current meta, but if it is, I'd be willing to be it looks a lot like this. Devlan Mud posted:PS10 is slightly better on Poe since he has Boost on his dial, and Lone Wolf is situationally less of a jump on the defensive when he's already got Autothrusters. The extra point probably matters more as well since he's more expensive than Luke is. This is also succinct and relevant. Poe rarely Boosts, but because he can PS10 is slightly better on him than on most jousting aces. I still don't think PS10 on him is very good, and early data would bear that out, most notably since at the Hoth Open the only Poe in the top 16 was Predator, not VI. I've been saying this for a while, now, though. Seeing my thoughts validated at this early stage is still maybe meaningless, but so far it checks out. Otisburg posted:Say what you want about Sheev, he ended up being a great fix to get the Lambda in the meta. I'm not, in principle, opposed to Palpatine by himself - I think it's okay that he exists, and I don't think he's the same level of bad-for-game-health that Crack Shot, TLT, and Omega Leader are. The issue is that OL and the TAP are so cheap against the cap that "Palp aces" can reliably fit four goddamn ships in this list. The problem isn't Sheev, it's that the other low-cost, extremely-high-impact small ships the Empire has are genuinely making game balance an issue. As people improve with triple aces or Palp aces, you can expect to see a lot of disappointed 3JM5K players going forward.
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Apr 3, 2016 18:12
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Otisburg posted:Say what you want about Sheev, he ended up being a great fix to get the Lambda in the meta. His name is Palpy. 
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Apr 3, 2016 18:20
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I'm actually not too concerned about the Inquisitor and Omega Leader's relatively low cost. If you're bringing both of them and a Palpshuttle, you're bringing neither VI Vader nor Soontir nor Whisper, which means you're bringing more ships to make up for the offense you no longer have, and said ship will also not be an offensive savant (in this sense, Soontir counts because while he may be mediocre on actual red dice, he punishes poor positioning disproportionately; I think Wampa is the best ship you can fit into the rest of a fully kitted OL/Inq/Palpshuttle list, and he's kind of 'scary' but not actually terribly effective.). If you're bringing only one of them, there still aren't enough points to fit an offensive savant and something else. They basically serve to make it easier to fully kit out Whisper while also having a support ace. It's a tough matchup, but Palpaces only really scares me when Palpatine is supporting an offensive monster that doesn't need red dice help, and can put those mods toward defense. EDIT: Incidentally, that's why my priority target against any palpaces list is the shuttle. Unlike most other things in those lists, it can't dodge a full jousting alpha from a group of X-wings, it can't take advantage of its own defensive rolls to great effect, I may be able to force the mod out on offense before it can be used against me while I'm defending, and once it's off the table it's (usually) two stupid high PS X-wings against a pair of Imp Aces that can no longer rely on Palp's defensive mods, and have to fly defensively or risk exploding at the drop of a hat. Palpatine is mediocre as an offensive mod, but on defense he's absolutely ridiculous. Strobe fucked around with this message at 18:39 on Apr 3, 2016 |
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Apr 3, 2016 18:20
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Strobe posted:stuff The issue isn't just the present, though (although it is still the present; OL and TAP's low costs are absolutely a problem right now), it's also the future. When you have two very effective aces that possess obscene pilot abilities, great dials, and cost a combined 60 points at fully built, you've created an incredibly exploitable design "space." FFG basically can't print a cheaper ace ever again or Empire will go from "probably the strongest faction" to "why even play anything else, this is boring." They don't just make Palpshuttles scary, they make 3/4 ship lists a much easier puzzle to solve for the Imps. With some finagling you could very easily do a kitted-out Whisper/TAP/OL build, or run Vessery/TAP/OL (which feels so oppressive it's comical), or pull a four-ship Palpshuttle list together with Wampa like you mentioned, or any number of other poo poo we haven't taken into account. I get that you're not concerned about it, but you also are evidently a goddamn wizard, because I've never been able to replicate any success at competitive levels with XXX, nor has anyone else I've ever spoken to. You're sui generis, Strobe. Shine on, you crazy diamond.
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Apr 3, 2016 18:55
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To be fair, I've never actually won a Store Championship, or even broken to finals (#5 at the Geekery, cut to top 4, #11 at Tabletop, cut to top 8  ). I'll typically go 4-1 and miss on MOV or 4-2 and know exactly where I hosed up bad enough to keep me out of the cut. At Tabletop, it was trying to kite a TIE swarm through debris. He turned faster than I expected and I ended up taking a turn of fire before I got turned around (and that turn was with no mods). As you can imagine, that didn't end well. Amusing note: I played against two of the guys that cut to Top 8 at Tabletop. One of them wrecked my face with a lucky crit (pulled a direct hit on Wedge with PS 11 Vader) the turn I was going to eviscerate the shuttle. We traded Luke for Soontir (I had a horrible misplay on this one, too, taking a TL with Luke on turn 1 instead of a focus. It cost me two damage that might have been decisive) in the second turn of shooting straight up, and then Wedge lit up the shuttle for four hits, exploded the next turn without firing, and Wes managed to roll exactly one hit per attack for the rest of the game. The other was against a Palpaces list packing Howlrunner, Omega Leader, Wampa, and an Academy flying escort. I ended up pulling a modified win out of it at time (Wes versus OL at time, I won by 7 points). I'm pretty okay going 1-1 against Top 8 in a 50 person tournament on my way to a 4-2 record.I'm an upper mid-tier player at best, and even then I'm only that good because I've spent hours upon hours fiddling around with templates and dials so I know with a fair degree of accuracy what will and will not clear an asteroid, will and will not bump, and what sort of angles I'll end up facing when I do bump. That, intimately knowing the T-65's dial, and kitting myself out with a list that functions at near peak efficiency even when I'm bumped to hell and back and stressed on top of that, is how I compete against a meta full of ships that dodge arcs and forces bumps. EDIT: When it comes right down to it, I get my performance out of having played the same goddamn list with minor tweaks for new cards for a year and a half. If you play something long enough, you will get good at it. Dipping your toes into something unfamiliar isn't going to win you anything. Strobe fucked around with this message at 19:10 on Apr 3, 2016 |
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Apr 3, 2016 19:02
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guts and bolts posted:With some finagling you could very easily do a kitted-out Whisper/TAP/OL build, or run Vessery/TAP/OL Hell, this doesn't even really take any finangling. You can run: "Whisper" (32) Veteran Instincts (1) Fire-Control System (2) Agent Kallus (2) Advanced Cloaking Device (4) The Inquisitor (25) Push the Limit (3) Autothrusters (2) TIE/v1 (1) "Omega Leader" (21) Juke (2) Comm Relay (3) Total: 98 Now, whether Whisper's still got what it takes to exist in the new meta is a whole other thing. I feel like two ships without boost might make the JM15K list really tough to handle, but it's hard to say without testing it. Plus, I'm still on my Dengar kick at the moment.
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Apr 3, 2016 19:24
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Dengar in particular also wildly fucks with Whisper if you don't have initiative, as do any number of PS9+ aces. WHisper's still strong, but not at the top of the peak of the Imperial stable I don't think.
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Apr 3, 2016 19:37
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rebel advice: wait for rebel vets
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Apr 3, 2016 19:49
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Fly some gat dang X-wings
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Apr 3, 2016 19:49
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I AM THE MOON posted:rebel advice: wait for rebel vets It'll be two Ghosts and all the cards will be the same but with Veteran in front of the name.
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Apr 3, 2016 19:54
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Are we really freaking out that rebels might not be the dominant faction (for maybe the first time) on the strength of a couple of tournaments?
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Apr 3, 2016 20:30
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Smegmalicious posted:Are we really freaking out that rebels might not be the dominant faction (for maybe the first time) on the strength of a couple of tournaments? lol if you don't think Imperials were dominant before the Phantom nerf.
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Apr 3, 2016 20:34
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This is why I like having games which have a theme or some other limitations: a buddy and I want to have lists with at least a K-Wing or a TIE Punisher, lists that have no named pilots, lists that are limited to 60 pts, etc. Yeah 100 points standard is good but when some of it devolves to min/maxing everything, there's no "challenge" of having limits.
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Apr 3, 2016 20:38
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Strobe posted:lol if you don't think Imperials were dominant before the Phantom nerf. I think the phantom was broken and fixed. I also think that wasn't a terribly long time. My point is wave 8 just dropped. Some people don't even have it yet. The meta is in a state of flux. Yeah the Empire looks strong right now but it's only been a couple of tournaments.
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Apr 3, 2016 21:49
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canyoneer posted:I'm considering a Lothal Rebel tactical jammer/autoblaster/AC build paired with superdash, with the idea that the large ships patrol the outside of the board with Dash on the outside playing like a cover shooter. People will just chip away at the ghost from its blind spot at range 3 with dash too far out to shoot back.
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Apr 3, 2016 21:58
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Paging Chill to this thread http://www.teefury.com/i-can-fly-an...paign=dailyfbad
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Apr 3, 2016 22:05
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Smegmalicious posted:I think the phantom was broken and fixed. I also think that wasn't a terribly long time. Phantoms lasted 8+ months un fixed. Even during the TLT era Rebels weren't top dawg.
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Apr 3, 2016 22:52
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Smegmalicious posted:I think the phantom was broken and fixed. I also think that wasn't a terribly long time. The Empire was in a good place before wave 8 dropped, improved with wave 8's release, and is going to get buffed again in a fairly significant way pretty soon unless the boat sinks again. Moreover, stuff in X-Wing never rotates out of competitive play, so it isn't like you can undo Omega Leader or The Inquisitor or the Crack Shot errata without creating controversy from your playerbase with a sweeping ruling or a restricted/banned list. That stuff just exists, and will exist until the heat death of the universe. Also yeah the Phantom getting its nerf took upwards of six months if I understand the timeline correctly - it wasn't "whoops, we hosed up, let us fix that" within like a few weeks. Also also it took the Phantom down from being blatantly and ridiculously unfair to just pretty drat good. The problem will persist until other factions get good arc-dodgers or improved action economy, which right now are the Empire's greatest strengths. Instead of Brunas's suggestion of giving Rebels a new faction identity, I actually think it's Empire that needs a new one, and that other teams need to have the same options that they do with regards to not getting shot at all with decently skilled piloting.
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Apr 3, 2016 23:11
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 Wave 8 went "On the boat" Dec 17th.
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Apr 3, 2016 23:24
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Brunas posted:
As someone who has bought a thing from China before I assume that the FFG employees forget what's being shipped to them until they actually receive it.
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Apr 3, 2016 23:29
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So the next FFG sanctioned tournament in KC is the April 23 Regionals at Game Cafe. Am I the only KC goon that plays X-wing? After trying out Ion Torpedoes a couple times to deal with swarms, I've come to the conclusion that since my squad runs almost perfectly fine without actions in the first place, I'm going back to Wedge with Protons. The extra crit on most rolls is enough to outright kill a ship in a number of cases where Ion Torpedoes wouldn't, and the ion effect is nice but I've been having trouble actually capitalizing on it, and the not-dead ship that should be dead has been doing not insignificant damage on those. Plus it's totally useless against things like Brobots and other large based ships that I want to be dealing more crits to anyway. I'm going back to my previous iteration, which was doing very well obliterating some poor sucker (sometimes two) in the opening joust. Wedge Antilles (29) Predator (3) Proton Torpedoes (4) Guidance Chips (0) Wes Jansen (29) Adaptability (0) R3-A2 (2) Integrated Astromech (0) Luke Skywalker (28) Adaptability (0) R2-D2 (4) Integrated Astromech (0) Total: 99 Leaves a one point bid, though I'm definitely waffling back and forth between R2 Astromech or not on Wedge. Being able to hard 2 after a k-turn is great, but the initiative bid is pretty necessary now that I'm 9/9/9 instead of 9/10/10.
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Apr 3, 2016 23:57
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canyoneer posted:I'm considering a Lothal Rebel tactical jammer/autoblaster/AC build paired with superdash, with the idea that the large ships patrol the outside of the board with Dash on the outside playing like a cover shooter. I run almost this exact list and just breezed through a local tournament today undefeated. My one suggestion is upgrade the rebel to chopper. The stress helps, but more importantly it lets you PS kill jumpmasters and makes your list vs a JM15k list basically an autowin.
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