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Covok posted:It's not hyperbolic at all. It's actually a completely valid term from both a diction and connotation standpoint especially when one considers the levels of harassment that have occurred in the industry and by gamers. Sexual harassment, sexual assault, swatting (calling swat teams to people's homes with the aim of hurting them and killing their pets), and many other acts that got one of the groups she called out branded terrorists by many media outlets and university professors. is there a place to read about Swatting because its something ive heard about but only in passing and its sucha loving bizarre thing that i want to learn more about how and when it happens
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Apr 3, 2016 21:23
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Alien Rope Burn posted:It's a grey use of the word terrorism, since terrorism conventionally means trying to push a political or ideological end. Whether or not this qualifies is an exercise for the reader. It's clearly meant to provoke, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. YMMV. That was sort of my point. Going back and reading all of it, yes, that is all awful stuff. But using the current the current boogeyman buzzword, to me, doesn't help the author appear credible to the casual reader coming into this without any backstory.
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Apr 3, 2016 21:24
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Countblanc posted:is there a place to read about Swatting because its something ive heard about but only in passing and its sucha loving bizarre thing that i want to learn more about how and when it happens Swatting happens when a person's real world address is found online, then people call the local police and report a serious danger in the house, like a guy with a gun holding hostages, so that the SWAT team is deployed to the house. Then something like this happens: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEdw_rujgs4 It happens because the people doing are probably hoping the scare the poo poo out of the whoever they call in the threat on, maybe even get them tazed/shot/arrested because US police are pretty lovely Nuns with Guns fucked around with this message at 21:29 on Apr 3, 2016 |
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Apr 3, 2016 21:25
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Nuns with Guns posted:so what you're saying is that you're dismissing the accusations she levels re:misogyny in tg circles because you think she's being too hysterical about it all? No, I am saying that word choice matters and these days "terrorism" is starting to mean a pretty specific thing and the author isn't helping get her point across by using it, even for shock value.
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Apr 3, 2016 21:26
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Alien Rope Burn posted:It's a grey use of the word terrorism, since terrorism conventionally means trying to push a political or ideological end. Whether or not this qualifies is an exercise for the reader. It's clearly meant to provoke, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. YMMV. Gamer Nerds might as well be an ideology, or at least treated as one. They have an inherent distrust of the Other, those that "don't belong" and who sap Gamers of enjoyment of their hobbies. See basically any time anyone complains about SJW's "ruining" their game/hobby. So they employ violent tactics (even if it's just harsh words, but as the article expounds, it's FAR worse than that) to intimidate and silence Others so they can keep their hobby "pure." They're gaming fascists, basically. And what is fascism's favorite tactic? Yeah.
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Apr 3, 2016 21:27
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bongwizzard posted:That was sort of my point. Going back and reading all of it, yes, that is all awful stuff. But using the current the current boogeyman buzzword, to me, doesn't help the author appear credible to the casual reader coming into this without any backstory. i would say the point of the work, on some random tumblr blog, is to embolden people who have experienced similar instances to speak out and to give suggestions for people who do agree with the authors claims. the anecdotes are there for Pathos and to talk about the severity of the instances. i agree that there need to be works which are aimed at people who are much less decided on particular issues like this but i also don't think any one author needs to cater to that need
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Apr 3, 2016 21:27
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bongwizzard posted:No, I am saying that word choice matters and these days "terrorism" is starting to mean a pretty specific thing and the author isn't helping get her point across by using it, even for shock value. So like... disregarding the word, what do you think about the rest of her blog post? Does she have a point?
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Apr 3, 2016 21:30
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bongwizzard posted:It's not valid if you care about getting anyone who doesn't already agree with you to give a gently caress. It is hyperbolic in the extreme and isn't going to help get any point you are making to be taken seriously. It's the literal definition of the word.
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Apr 3, 2016 21:31
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Countblanc posted:i would say the point of the work, on some random tumblr blog, is to embolden people who have experienced similar instances to speak out and to give suggestions for people who do agree with the authors claims. the anecdotes are there for Pathos and to talk about the severity of the instances. But that is literally the first thing I posted, that hyperbolic word choice isn't going to help in convincing anyone who isn't already a reader of your random tumble blog that this is a serious issue. And ultimately, I think think any other civil rights/social justice issue, the only way to get any change is to get the uninformed/apathetic majority on your side.
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Apr 3, 2016 21:32
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bongwizzard posted:See, I quit reading after the author said that emails were terrorism. How about we do this: since you quit reading the post on the seventh word of the title and therefore have nothing of substance to say about it, stop posting about it or anything related it or this discussion, that way you'll save everyone from having to read your worthless, uninformed opinions. 
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Apr 3, 2016 21:32
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It isn't actually hyperbole if your use of the word is perfectly and absolutely correct.
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Apr 3, 2016 21:32
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Nuns with Guns posted:So like... disregarding the word, what do you think about the rest of her blog post? Does she have a point? Well yea, duh. Lemon-Lime posted:It's the literal definition of the word. Well, literally now can can also mean figuratively, if the OED is to be believed. Also good job at winning hearts and minds there.
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Apr 3, 2016 21:34
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Hi, I'm Somethingawful forums user bongwizzard and I'm here to tell you that the woman who has been consistently terrorized over a period of years isn't allowed to use the word "terrorism" because I don't like it 
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Apr 3, 2016 21:35
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I thought the blog post was a mean-spirited parody of actual harassment victim blogs. But I stopped reading at "a guy handed me a roofie Pepsi and then the cops called me a slut." It counts on it being always-wrong to question a victim, then rides the premise to the absurdity rodeo for whatever laughs assholes get out of doing that.
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Apr 3, 2016 21:36
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When did I say that, I said it likely wasn't helpful in advancing her cause?
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Apr 3, 2016 21:36
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Some dipshit figured out my email from my username and used it to bitch about my posting and I'm still pretty mad about that  There are plenty of places to verbally abuse others, in designated, public venues. Anyway, intensely curious as to what caused Wyrd fans' beef with her.
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Apr 3, 2016 21:40
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Bedlamdan posted:Some dipshit figured out my email from my username and used it to bitch about my posting and I'm still pretty mad about that In my long experience on the internet, I'm going to go with the high crime of "being a woman", with a possible misdemeanor of "having an opinion".
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Apr 3, 2016 21:42
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bongwizzard posted:Well yea, duh. Dude seriously, shut the gently caress up.
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Apr 3, 2016 21:44
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bongwizzard posted:Well yea, duh. what do you think about misogyny in tabletop gaming? Bedlamdan posted:Some dipshit figured out my email from my username and used it to bitch about my posting and I'm still pretty mad about that If it really is based on that thread someone linked earlier, some dude asked for more bare boobs on wargame minis because it can enhance them somehow, she sarcastically disagreed, so someone found her personal email and sent graphic porn to it etc
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Apr 3, 2016 21:45
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bongwizzard posted:Also good job at winning hearts and minds there. Given your posts so far, it doesn't sound like you have a heart or a mind to win.
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Apr 3, 2016 21:48
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One can see how folks may find it disrespectful in viewing an equation of violent, military-style terrorism with rape and death threats, or argue over the provocative title of the Tumblr post. But the problems underlying the whole thing are very, very real and I'm sad to see folks quibbling over the title instead of the meat of the thing. I'm thankful that I have yet to receive such kinds of threats in my years of tabletop gaming, but there have been times where I noticed that previous attempts to discuss such issues in nerd communities had negative blowback. I'm very much a man and identify as such, and don't really talk about or identify my race or sexual orientation, but in spite of this some attempts to say "hey, this is kind of worrisome/gross/mean" in a context of sexist behavior, some of the reactions I got were very, very angry. And in the one major instance I didn't call people out or said that they sucked or used foul language, or that even "playing a game with sexist elements means you contribute to rape culture" or any such hyperbole. I know that women gamers have it worse, but that experience was enough to show that even if you're a gamer part of the dominant social paradigm (male, caucasian, hetero, etc) delivering a message in a rational, nonobstructive way, you are still going to kick up a hornet's nest in many gaming circles simply by acknowledging that the problem is there. Libertad! fucked around with this message at 22:19 on Apr 3, 2016 |
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Apr 3, 2016 21:50
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NTRabbit posted:Seems like a considerable number of events and actions for just one person moths posted:I thought the blog post was a mean-spirited parody of actual harassment victim blogs. It is chronicling twenty years in the hobby. It can't be proven, no, taking your implied skepticism. But the problem with holding up evidence is that it generally leads to greater harassment, since it often identifies the person holding it up to the original perpetrator. It's a bit of a catch-22 for victims, and I do wish there were better ways of dragging that sort of behavior into the light. Maybe she's a liar. Maybe you're a liar. But it makes it hard to have any sort of conversation when that's the premise you start from.
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Apr 3, 2016 21:51
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Kai Tave posted:Dude seriously, shut the gently caress up. Not likely but I will take it under consideration. Serf posted:Given your posts so far, it doesn't sound like you have a heart or a mind to win. How on earth do you get this from anything I have posted? I was questioning word choice in a blog post, which I assumed was written to raise awareness about an issue.
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Apr 3, 2016 22:02
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It's like, going against the prevailing consensus of a community means you will get poo poo on a great deal, by that community. What do you think, bongwizzard???
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Apr 3, 2016 22:10
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bongwizzard posted:Not likely but I will take it under consideration. Because in a post about a woman being harassed and sexually assaulted for years your response is question her "word choice" as if that's the real issue here. At best you're concern trolling, which really isn't helpful (though I doubt you're sincerely concerned). Also, bongwizzard posted:See, I quit reading after the author said that emails were terrorism. You clearly don't actually give a poo poo, so go ahead and gently caress off.
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Apr 3, 2016 22:11
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I don't have that much of a problem with it in the end, because she clearly explains early on in the piece why she considers it to be terrorism in the technical sense. You may or may not still disagree with it, but the author's done their due diligence to articulate themselves. That's how usage changes occur and neologisms become legitimate: by people promoting their use to describe a phenomenon that (in their opinion) nothing else describes well enough. I might not have used it in the title, though, because for better or for worse it's relatively common for people to have developed an allergy to sensationalist-sounding language in social media, and you don't want to turn off otherwise sympathetic readers just because you initially appear to not be using language correctly.
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Apr 3, 2016 22:19
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I don't think word choice is the determinant factor, because that would amount to a declaration that the average person is too stupid to deal with ideas and needs to be led like livestock.
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Apr 3, 2016 22:20
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bongwizzard posted:How on earth do you get this from anything I have posted? I was questioning word choice in a blog post, which I assumed was written to raise awareness about an issue. I knew as soon as I saw her use the word, that some idiot in this thread was going to focus laser-like on that, to the exclusion of the actual point and any relevant discussion of it. I just wasn't sure who. By the time I was halfway through the article, I was also sure that someone was going to question whether her anectodes of being sexually assaulted and straight-up raped were truthful. This is of course the immediate and constant reaction victims of all kinds tend to get when they describe what's happened to them. It's far easier to assume that the woman is being overly dramatic, or is lying, or is just trying to stir up poo poo, than it is to turn around and look at your friends, or the tribe you identify with, and recognize that there are violent sexual predators among them. Did she use the wrong word? Was she actually repeatedly assaulted, humiliated, and at least once (by legal definition in most jurisdictions in north america) drugged and raped? It doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is if the problem she's describing is real. And I suspect enough of us on this forum have seen it first-hand to agree that it absolutely is real. I can tell you for my own part that I personally know a woman gamer who was raped by her gamer roommate. She is suffering severe psychological trauma even now, five years later, which includes diagnosed PTSD, depression, and recently, psychosis. I don't know that many women gamers. The other one I know pretty well has been groped, harassed, cyber-stalked, and bullied, and the main reason she's still able to attend cons and events safely is because she's always accompanied at all times by her husband. Think about that. A woman needs an escort in order to safely attend a con. That's literally a thing.
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Apr 3, 2016 22:20
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Serf posted:Because in a post about a woman being harassed and sexually assaulted for years your response is question her "word choice" as if that's the real issue here. At best you're concern trolling, which really isn't helpful (though I doubt you're sincerely concerned). If the issue is "getting people to give a gently caress about harassing/abusive behavior in the greater tg community", then how do you propose addressing it, other then taking about it, in writing, on the Internet, where are we see is the written word? Why would you doubt that I am concerned? My concern would be that by making hyperbolic/inflammatory word chooses, she makes any rando who comes across her post less like to believe her and less likely to take her story seriously. Is expressing this thought somehow worse then just back clicking and reading the next thread in line?
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Apr 3, 2016 22:20
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bongwizzard posted:Not likely but I will take it under consideration. So you're going with a tone argument instead. It is no different than the people who say "Maybe if those blacks were more respectful, people would listen to them more." "I know she's dealt with 20 years of this sort of thing but maybe if she was nicer about explaining it, it would achieve more than the previous 20 years of trying to be be polite or brush it off." - bongwhizzard 2016
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Apr 3, 2016 22:22
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bongwizzard posted:If the issue is "getting people to give a gently caress about harassing/abusive behavior in the greater tg community", then how do you propose addressing it, other then taking about it, in writing, on the Internet, where are we see is the written word? Ah, so concern trolling it is. Gotcha.
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Apr 3, 2016 22:22
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bongwizzard posted:If the issue is "getting people to give a gently caress about harassing/abusive behavior in the greater tg community", then how do you propose addressing it, other then taking about it, in writing, on the Internet, where are we see is the written word? Why do you hate people so much?
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Apr 3, 2016 22:23
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JerryLee posted:I might not have used it in the title, though, because for better or for worse it's relatively common for people to have developed an allergy to sensationalist-sounding language in social media, and you don't want to turn off otherwise sympathetic readers just because you initially appear to not be using language correctly. Exactly. Leperflesh posted:It doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is if the problem she's describing is real. And I suspect enough of us on this forum have seen it first-hand to agree that it absolutely is real. So then how do you get the vastly larger percentage of the community that doesn't read this forum to take it seriously? That was my point, her word choice IMHO is counter productive, correct or not, isn't going to help the underling cause any and might actually hurt it.
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Apr 3, 2016 22:25
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Bongwizzard is full of poo poo and a regressive individual who is trying to ignore the real issues of discrimination in the industry by focusing on word usage. Most of us seem to agree on that. However, by focusing on him, we aren't discussing the issues brought up by the article. Since its obvious he isn't changing his stance as evident by his rhetroic, instead of beating our head against the wall, it'd be best just to shun him in this discussion and go on to discuss the actual issues brought up by the article.
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Apr 3, 2016 22:27
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There is missing the forest for the trees, and than there is missing the forest to focus on a squirrel that just fell from a tree. Reading about stuff like this makes me sick in the stomach. How the gently caress did it develop is what I'd like to know: how do so many people that do not realize that molesting another human being is wrong just happen to all be into elfgames? Why is this a thing? Is there something in the ink of the D&D's PHB that messes with your head?
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Apr 3, 2016 22:37
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bongwizzard posted:So then how do you get the vastly larger percentage of the community that doesn't read this forum to take it seriously? One way is to call out people who want to redirect the conversation into a criticism of the tone, word choice, or attitude of the people who are doing the complaining, and pile on them until they are willing to stop derailing the conversation. By doing that, we can help keep the conversation going where it needs to go: loud, explicit acknowledgement that there is a big problem, and that it's incumbent upon everyone involved in gaming to not just accept that there's a problem, but to be proactive about dealing with it. That includes getting everyone we game with on board, confronting people who aren't willing to get on board, and forcing the people who hold power - whether that's store owners, con officials, game company representatives, or GMs of our games - to actively and vocally take responsibility for what is going on within their purview.
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Apr 3, 2016 22:37
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Bongwizzard is a perfect example of why things are lovely, and the answer is to stand up and not allow this poo poo to happen and kick the fuckers out.
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Apr 3, 2016 22:37
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Leperflesh posted:One way is to call out people who want to redirect the conversation into a criticism of the tone, word choice, or attitude of the people who are doing the complaining, and pile on them until they are willing to stop derailing the conversation. If that is what you guys want, then sure, I will drop it. But I don't believe at all that it will help anything. "Getting people on board" requires getting them to take you seriously, which was the point I was trying to address.
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Apr 3, 2016 22:44
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bongwizzard posted:So then how do you get the vastly larger percentage of the community that doesn't read this forum to take it seriously? That was my point, her word choice IMHO is counter productive, correct or not, isn't going to help the underling cause any and might actually hurt it. The problem is less with her wording (this is terrorism in the same way that gerbergrime is terrorism -- it's meant to terrify people into shutting up and drive them out for existing in a hobby and/or having opinions) and more with people who can only think of terrorism in terms of Scary Brown People blowin' stuff up in other countries. Domestic terrorism is a thing! There are lots of different flavors of domestic terrorism and some of them involve angry nerd dudes deluging women/PoC/queer folx with death threats and sustained harassment. also speaking of bad opinion havin' motherfuckers moths posted:I thought the blog post was a mean-spirited parody of actual harassment victim blogs. But I stopped reading at "a guy handed me a roofie Pepsi and then the cops called me a slut." It counts on it being always-wrong to question a victim, then rides the premise to the absurdity rodeo for whatever laughs assholes get out of doing that. lmao i don't even know what to say
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Apr 3, 2016 22:46
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If anything the problem with the word "terrorist" is that it associates the real, actual, constant threat of misogynist white men with the sporadic and scattershot threat of people trying to kill for political aims. In other words, I am absolutely positive that the average men's rights activist is more likely to cause harm to the average woman than is the average terrorist. Even if obviously the level of harm the terrorist seeks to inflict is much more publicly devastating.
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