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Magic vs martial in D&D makes sense if you remember that the writers and vocal fans are still really, really mad about high school gym class.
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Apr 6, 2016 00:22
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Someone post Dark Dungeons it's page 666. Also someone post the 5E point buy thing I need it and can't find it.
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Apr 6, 2016 00:31
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It really is the "core audience" that's the biggest problem. Remember, in the final playtest, Fighters had features like "recover your maneuver dice as an action, not an hour of rest" and "recover half your hp" and "You have advantage on all saves" and "when you hit a mook, it just dies" and "when you take a meteorswarm to the face, make an easy con save with advantage to nosell it". The fans went absolutely nuts over it and all of those features were nerfed to the point of being next to worthless. The designers realized that an optimized fighter should never be as good at combat as an unoptimized spellcaster, made it so, and called it a day.
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Apr 6, 2016 00:32
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Razorwired posted:Magic vs martial in D&D makes sense if you remember that the writers and vocal fans are still really, really mad about high school gym class. Don't forget about anime, and World of WarCraft.
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Apr 6, 2016 00:39
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Food for thought: The spell list of a level 1 Wizard in Everquest d20: Frost Bolt: deal 1d8 cold damage Minor Shielding: grants caster +2 AC and +2 HP Numbing Cold: 1d6 cold damage to all within a 10-foot burst Shock of Frost: 1d6 cold damage Sphere of Light: creates a glowing globe that illuminates an area True North: caster senses true north The spell list of a level 1 Warmage in D&D 3rd Edition: Lesser acid orb Burning hands Chill touch Lesser cold orb Lesser electric orb Lesser fire orb Magic missile Shocking grasp Sleep Lesser sonic orb True strike The spell list of a level 1 Wizard in D&D 5th Edition: Alarm Burning Hands Charm Person Chromatic Orb Color Spray Comprehend Languages Detect Magic Disguise Self Expeditious Retreat False Life Feather Fall Find Familiar Fog Cloud Grease Identify Illusory Script Jump Longstrider Mage Armor Magic Missile Protection from Evil and Good Ray of Sickness Shield Silent Image Sleep Tasha’s Hideous Laughter Tenser’s Floating Disk Thunderwave Unseen Servant Witch Bolt The very first spell on that last list, Alarm, already takes a poo poo on the stereotype of the grizzled warrior taking first watch while the rest of the party sleeps encamped. It's possible to create a magical spellcaster class that doesn't outshine everyone else. You just have to be willing to actually design it.
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Apr 6, 2016 00:48
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Kai Tave posted:"Do a bunch of work patching the game yourself" is a solution of sorts, as is "play a different game," but they're admittedly not very helpful solutions for someone who wants to play Next but doesn't really want to have to also play the "which deficiencies am I going to have to spackle over this week?" minigame alongside it. oh I was just speaking in generalities. how to fix the problem for a hypothetical improved system
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Apr 6, 2016 01:14
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Everquest D20's "True North" is a good example of a useful utility spell that doesn't step on anyone's toes. The wizard can find North (a neat trick if you can't see the sky and your compass is unreliable, broken, or lost) but is still going to need someone to navigate to where they're going.
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Apr 6, 2016 01:24
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The playtest had a bunch of fun and cool stuff for the fighter. For a while superiority dice were per round! At level 20 the fighter could often just say 'no, I don't die' and had good saves. There was a two-handed finesse weapon that I built a fun barbarian around which really scratched my out of the box character building itch! There was meaningful pay-off to building a reach fighter without needing three feats! Then people complained and most of the creative things that I enjoyed got taken out of the game outright and I'm still pretty upset that 'no that's unrealistic' politics bullshit turned the playtest which I quite enjoyed into whatever this is. E: Legitimately someone running a mix of the playtest packet classes would make me want to play again but as it is I look at the character sheets and just feel sad that I could do something fun with wild shape and the barbarian, or I could just go druid 20 and cast the spell shapeshift and abuse the gently caress out of access to legendary resistance on the first half dozen forms instead is that good fucked around with this message at 02:05 on Apr 6, 2016 |
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Apr 6, 2016 02:01
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Allstone posted:The playtest had a bunch of fun and cool stuff for the fighter. For a while superiority dice were per round! At level 20 the fighter could often just say 'no, I don't die' and had good saves. There was a two-handed finesse weapon that I built a fun barbarian around which really scratched my out of the box character building itch! There was meaningful pay-off to building a reach fighter without needing three feats! Then people complained and most of the creative things that I enjoyed got taken out of the game outright and I'm still pretty upset that 'no that's unrealistic' politics bullshit turned the playtest which I quite enjoyed into whatever this is. As someone who temporarily bought into the playtest once before losing interest quickly, are there any archives for playtest-version things for 5E, classes in particular?
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Apr 6, 2016 02:04
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Ditch skills and every pure utility spell. Everyone gets their class, race and a background, and justify how those help them do a noncombat thing, and roll under a number based on that and a relevant stat rather than a dm-set target. I don't know what the numbers should be but it's simple and fun enough for in-between combats.
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Apr 6, 2016 02:05
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Even with that people have trouble breaking out of the habit of 'no he's a wizard that seems reasonable' 'I'm not sure a fighter could do that' kind of stuff.
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Apr 6, 2016 02:08
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The wizard does get way more stuff but it opens up more social stuff for fighters, gives a mechanically level playing field and gives a chance of failure for wizard stuff. It's not perfect but it makes things more interesting.
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Apr 6, 2016 02:11
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"The flying castle soars overhead." "Um, I'll cast fly?" "Kay, roll under your intelligence." "I'll jump!" "No." "I'll rip a tree from the ground and use it to pole vault!" "gently caress no." "I'll tie a large rock to a rope, and throw it to the castle, then climb up?" "Okay. Roll a dexterity check for the knot tying, roll a strength check for the throw--extra hard, because that castle is high up there--I'll roll a straight 1d20 to see if you're lucky enough for your rock to not just fall off. Now roll another strength check to climb. Actually, better make that three, because that's 60 feet of rope."
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Apr 6, 2016 02:45
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chaos rhames posted:Ditch skills and every pure utility spell. Everyone gets their class, race and a background, and justify how those help them do a noncombat thing, and roll under a number based on that and a relevant stat rather than a dm-set target. I don't know what the numbers should be but it's simple and fun enough for in-between combats. Maybe I should just play Burning Wheel.
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Apr 6, 2016 02:52
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Quadratic_Wizard posted:"The flying castle soars overhead." You can tell the fighter has int as a dump stat because he didn't ask the flying wizard to just tie the rope off for him.
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Apr 6, 2016 02:55
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Machai posted:You can tell the fighter has int as a dump stat because he didn't ask the flying wizard to just tie the rope off for him. Oh god "you are not smart enough to come up with that plan" is just the worst and I'm glad its never come up in a game I've played.
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Apr 6, 2016 03:01
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TorakFade posted:One thing that could kinda "balance" mages is that they are usually frail guys. Unless they're buffed with defensive spells and magic items, they should go down easily, all it takes is a sword through the gut and boom, no more mage; it might be difficult to get in melee range, but once you do they're toast. They need martials to protect them against physical threat. Perhaps one of the most egregious apologies for 5e is this notion of the Fighter protecting the Wizard while the Wizard warms up, which isn't supported by the design at all. Fighters have very few means for actually defending their allies, and spells are all instantly activated because doing nothing for five minutes while your spell warms up is kinda boring.
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Apr 6, 2016 03:37
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gradenko_2000 posted:Oh god "you are not smart enough to come up with that plan" is just the worst and I'm glad its never come up in a game I've played. I've never had a DM enforce that against me, but it's been a lot of fun to roleplay around. In the paladins case it was, "The goddess has granted me a revelation, we should try doing $thing." I also played an 8 int noble fighter with history proficiency. Every time I came up with a plan I'd just start with "I recall by tutor taught me about a battle where the outnumbered heroes were in a situation exactly like ours and this is what they did..."
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Apr 6, 2016 03:40
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Wow if you create a situation where skills that aren't designed to be universal don't fit and then assume a bad GM is in charge it doesn't work to allow fighters to do exactly what wizards do.
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Apr 6, 2016 04:10
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I still say the biggest problem with magic is the whole notion of Vancian casting. It's dumb. It makes your spells, themselves, the resource and creates the illusion that scarcity should equal power. I don't know why DnD didn't ever make a class designed around at-will casting and just heavily pushing it toward a very specific implementation. After call, only in literally Vance do wizards cast one spell and take a pee break. They always have magic at hand - they might choose not to use it because of the consequences but rarely do they just shrug and say, "oops, can't, out of spells today." Magic should be a skill the same way being a burly guy is a skill. It should have about the same level of utility too.
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Apr 6, 2016 05:03
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Mendrian posted:I still say the biggest problem with magic is the whole notion of Vancian casting. It's dumb. It makes your spells, themselves, the resource and creates the illusion that scarcity should equal power. I don't know why DnD didn't ever make a class designed around at-will casting and just heavily pushing it toward a very specific implementation. After call, only in literally Vance do wizards cast one spell and take a pee break. They always have magic at hand - they might choose not to use it because of the consequences but rarely do they just shrug and say, "oops, can't, out of spells today." Magic should be a skill the same way being a burly guy is a skill. It should have about the same level of utility too. That was the 3e warlock, which does exist in 5e.* I get the feeling it was significantly altered because of grogs whining about a caster being able to do things all day long; I know that's been a pain point in the past. (*Or the truenamer, m maybe?)
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Apr 6, 2016 05:08
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I think that in the TSR days, it was possible to get around Vancian casting limits anyway by spending your money to carry lots of spell scrolls around with you. Certainly the Magic-User in my AD&D game has been doing that, although obviously you couldn't do it at the start of the game. There was also finding rods, scrolls and staves which would then have dozens of spell charges available.
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Apr 6, 2016 05:38
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I could poo poo a better balanced martial vs magic system than 5e
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Apr 6, 2016 05:45
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Mendrian posted:I still say the biggest problem with magic is the whole notion of Vancian casting. It's dumb. It makes your spells, themselves, the resource and creates the illusion that scarcity should equal power. And even Vancian wizards aren't like D&D wizards. Since the very strongest Vancian wizard only had five spell slots, every Vancian wizard was skilled in normal combat and other non-magical pursuits. Under that model, wizard is basically a prestige class for high level characters that has five levels, each level giving a character exactly one spell slot.
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Apr 6, 2016 05:56
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Speaking of wizards, abjuration spec vs divination. Which one?
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Apr 6, 2016 06:26
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Arivia posted:That was the 3e warlock, which does exist in 5e.* I get the feeling it was significantly altered because of grogs whining about a caster being able to do things all day long; I know that's been a pain point in the past. (*Or the truenamer, m maybe?) The other at-will casters: binders, dragonfire adepts, and misc incarnum users, worked pretty well mechanically. I guess technically shadowcasters count, but honestly they're really just 'slightly sucky homegrown vancian'
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Apr 6, 2016 07:09
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Tunicate posted:Truenamer is totally nonfunctional, admittedly. They seriously hosed up the DC scaling on the abilities. :wizard101: You can actually jigger it so that you can pass the Truenaming DCs with relative ease, though the problem is that you have to do a fair amount of optimization, AND the end result is that you remain an exceedingly mediocre caster whose class wants them to dabble in gishing. No, getting Gate at level 20 does not save Truenamer.
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Apr 6, 2016 07:19
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A 50S RAYGUN posted:because that's generally how magic works? i don't know. i didn't make the spell lists, but none of the spells make me think 'why can magic do this?' magic isn't real, why can it do anything?
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Apr 6, 2016 07:43
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NachtSieger posted::wizard101: You can actually jigger it so that you can pass the Truenaming DCs with relative ease, though the problem is that you have to do a fair amount of optimization, AND the end result is that you remain an exceedingly mediocre caster whose class wants them to dabble in gishing. No, getting Gate at level 20 does not save Truenamer. Yeah if you can get the GM to approve custom items to make your class work, but if you can do that then even the fighter is salvagable.
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Apr 6, 2016 07:52
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Sharzak posted:I'm going to DM a one-shot adventure for our party, who is at level 3. I want it to be a spooky, atmospheric dungeon crawl. Anyone have any tips for running something scary in this? What are some good and horrifying encounter ideas? I think the basic notion is going to be they're lost in the woods, come across a hut, and in the basement is a trapdoor to an absurdly huge dungeon. The Dungeon is a manufacturing center for a Blood mage, Floor 1 is "Acquisitions" lots of undead/spirit guards and cells, 2nd is for "Manufacturing" people tied to tables. This is where they find the Blood River, which is a maintenance line on the outside of the dungeon that pipes all of the blood through while skeletons sprinkle in magic powder to stop coagulation. 3rd Floor is Research, tons of monsters spliced together into giant creatures in holding pins, maybe a few researcher mages. and finally, on the 4th floor you have Management, and that's where the powerful blood mage sits, waiting for the adventurers to drop in and they have a choice. Walk away, and forget they were ever there. Or perish.
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Apr 6, 2016 07:54
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Skellybones posted:I could poo poo a better balanced martial vs magic system than 5e Its called the tome of battle.
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Apr 6, 2016 08:05
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Turtlicious posted:The Dungeon is a manufacturing center for a Blood mage, Floor 1 is "Acquisitions" lots of undead/spirit guards and cells, 2nd is for "Manufacturing" people tied to tables. This is where they find the Blood River, which is a maintenance line on the outside of the dungeon that pipes all of the blood through while skeletons sprinkle in magic powder to stop coagulation. 3rd Floor is Research, tons of monsters spliced together into giant creatures in holding pins, maybe a few researcher mages. and finally, on the 4th floor you have Management, and that's where the powerful blood mage sits, waiting for the adventurers to drop in and they have a choice. Walk away, and forget they were ever there. Or perish. Or submit a resume. Don't assume things about your players in advance.
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Apr 6, 2016 08:09
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chaos rhames posted:Wow if you create a situation where skills that aren't designed to be universal don't fit and then assume a bad GM is in charge it doesn't work to allow fighters to do exactly what wizards do. In my experience, situations like that are actually pretty frequent. In the last session of 5e I played in a few weeks ago, we were stuck behind a trap hallway that had turned on, but one of the walls of the room we were in was shared with another room from earlier in the dungeon that we wanted to get into. I was playing a martial character with 20 Strength that was all about breaking things and wrestling people. I suggested breaking the wall down, and the DM questioned whether my character would have the locational awareness to know that the rooms shared a thin wall. After I pointed out that one of the party members was Good At Maps™, the DM asked what I would use to break the wall down. After I said I would use whatever furniture was nearby as a battering ram, the DM said that there weren't any objects around, because the halls and rooms were apparently empty and featureless. After I got the wizard to cast fabricate to create some sort of battering ram out of some spare weapons and armor I had on hand, the DM said it would take me an hour to break through the wall, and I'd suffer one rank of exhaustion. I decided to do it anyway. Then the wizard cast dimension door to go through the wall and turned all the traps off. Some people are just sticklers for ~realism~.
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Apr 6, 2016 08:18
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what was your intelligence? isn't like baseline human intelligence assumed to be 10, and creatures way way dumber than humans can understand things like 'two rooms next to each other share walls'
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Apr 6, 2016 08:37
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Tunicate posted:Yeah if you can get the GM to approve custom items to make your class work, but if you can do that then even the fighter is salvagable. You don't need custom items, actually. Keep in mind I haven't read up about Truenamers in years, but getting them to trivially pass Truenaming DCs can be done completely within the rules. That part I remember. Though again, the endpoint is extremely mediocre and 100% not worth the book slog.
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Apr 6, 2016 09:00
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Vanguard Warden posted:In my experience, situations like that are actually pretty frequent. Your dm sounds real boring.
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Apr 6, 2016 10:21
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DJ Dizzy posted:Speaking of wizards, abjuration spec vs divination. Which one? I played an Abj. wiz in Hoard of the Dragon Queen/Rise of Tiamat. Human Variant with the Healer feat. The party was fluid at first, hence the Healer feat. Finished Rise of Tiamat around (under-leveled, had DM problems; go go Adventurer's League) 11, so I never really had the chance to take advantage of the bonus to counterspells/dispells or the resistance. When facing >1 caster; counterspell is almost pointless, b/c you can use your reaction to counter another counter on the original turn of whatever you cast. You have a limited # of slots and reactions for and entire day. The fodder casters have all that they have for one encounter. In RoT I just happened to have a wand of fear from the lake when facing the group of mages in the tower (sorry to be vague, 1.5 year spoilers?). Not even sure how often you encounter multiple casters, but it IS a thing. Anyway, the arcane ward probably saved me a few times, but I'm positive a few encounter could've been ended earlier and party resources could've been saved if I had the right portent dice. I had two fluctuating un-optimized parties, so who knows? So in the end, it depends on the group composition, DM tendencies, type of adventure, allowed sources/alternate rules (be they UA, marking rules, spell points, hero points), and the expected level range. But my straight up gut feeling it to go Divination. It is one of those rare abilities that leaves nothing to chance and lets you control the flow of combat/narrative/dialogue. ------------- Since the WotC forums closed, I can remember a few guides/dudes off the top of my head. "Arrive on Time" which is on enworld now I believe. And Treantmonk20 who is on google. ------------ I actually never saw the theory crafting / math behind the Necromancy / Bone Zone. Anyone have an idea/page # when that happened?
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Apr 6, 2016 10:48
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Hitlers Gay Secret posted:Man, druids are OP. I wildshaped into a Goblin Boss when we encountered a shitton of goblins and watched as all but one were slaughtered because I kept switching places with them and their friends would take the blow instead. Goblins =/ Beasts. Did Dobby and Obould not teach us anything?
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Apr 6, 2016 10:53
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Libertad! posted:Don't forget about anime, and World of WarCraft. Man, I loving wish D&D had one tenth of the class balance WoW has.
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Apr 6, 2016 13:25
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Comrade Koba posted:Man, I loving wish D&D had one tenth of the class balance WoW has. Nine years on and through the lens of D&D, I feel like I have a better understanding of how vindictive people can be, especially when given the reins of game design.
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Apr 6, 2016 13:34
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