UKMT April 2016: David Cameron's P19 Form

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > UKMT April 2016: David Cameron's P19 Form

MrL_JaKiri: Sep 23, 2003; A bracing glass of carrot juice!

Guavanaut posted:

And the 'ban scary things that scare us even if they're ill defined or illogical' bit.

This is a core libertarian position, look at their reaction to any sort of non-(straight white cis male) inclusion in video games.

# ? Apr 6, 2016 12:24

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# ? May 29, 2024 11:49

Pissflaps: Oct 20, 2002; by VideoGames

ThomasPaine posted:

I'm getting the weirdest sense of deja vu

If that's because you sense I suggested Corbyn wouldn't win the labour leadership election then you'd be wrong.

# ? Apr 6, 2016 12:28

Spangly A: May 14, 2009; God help you if ever you're caught on these shores

A man's ambition must indeed be small
To write his name upon a shithouse wall

ThomasPaine posted:

Really though I just think it's actually a sham ideology selfish jackasses use to legitimise themselves

lets be absolutely clear, it has no origins in french post-communist Libertarianism and is the result of a Ford-led thinktank that was brought before the supreme court. I'll try and find the relevant rulings.

I'm dumb; it was the John Birch society and the original Koch that founded modern Libertarianism to stop blacks getting freedom because communists.

Spangly A fucked around with this message at 12:37 on Apr 6, 2016

# ? Apr 6, 2016 12:29

Phoon: Apr 23, 2010

liberalism (and therefore libertarianism) is all about the idea that nobody should exercise power over the liberal, including the power to stop him exercising power over others however he wants

# ? Apr 6, 2016 12:29

ThomasPaine: Feb 4, 2009; We have no compassion and we ask no compassion from you. When our turn comes, we shall not make excuses for the terror.

Pissflaps posted:

If that's because you sense I suggested Corbyn wouldn't win the labour leadership election then you'd be wrong.

Ok then

# ? Apr 6, 2016 12:30

Tesseraction: Apr 5, 2009

MrL_JaKiri posted:

This is a core libertarian position, look at their reaction to any sort of non-(straight white cis male) inclusion in video games.

Those are authoritarians, at least going by their coincidental idolisation of Ronald Dump.

# ? Apr 6, 2016 12:34

Fans: Jun 27, 2013; A reptile dysfunction

Liberalism is an extreme parody of the "gently caress you got mine" attitude except some people don't get that it's meant to be a joke

# ? Apr 6, 2016 12:34

goddamnedtwisto: Dec 31, 2004; If you ask me about the mole people in the London Underground, I WILL be forced to kill you; Fun Shoe

BizarroAzrael posted:

Always great to see "pettyfogging " in conversation.

I love it, it's such a perfect shibboleth for "Someone annoyed at having to show even the barest amount of care or consideration for another human being". You hear it in Daily Telegraph opinion pieces and letters an awful lot.

# ? Apr 6, 2016 12:35

Jose: Jul 24, 2007; Adrian Chiles is a broadcaster and writer

its good the UK business secretary is a big Ayn Rand fan

# ? Apr 6, 2016 12:39

dispatch_async: Nov 28, 2014; Imagine having the time to have played through 20 generations of one family in The Sims 2. Imagine making the original two members of that family Neil Buchanan and Cat Deeley. Imagine complaining to Maxis there was no technological progression. You've successfully imagined my life

Speaking of libertarian bullshit. BBC reveals right wing talking points are actually made up :aaaaa:

quote:

It has been suggested recently that there are 26,911 words of European Union regulation on the sale of cabbage. The claim is not true, but it has a long and interesting history dating back to the US in the 1940s.

"Lord's Prayer - 66 words, 10 Commandments - 179 words, Gettysburg address - 286 words, EU regulations on the sale of cabbage - 26,911 words."

With a referendum on UK membership of the European Union just around the corner, this cabbage statistic is proving rather popular on social media. It's cited as evidence that the EU is too bureaucratic and exerts excessive control over its members.

It was tweeted, for example, by Eamonn Butler, director of the free-market think tank the Adam Smith Institute in February, and last month Rachel Johnson repeated the statement in her Daily Mail column.

"As soon as I declared myself an 'inner' last week, I started veering like a wonky shopping trolley towards the Brexit and began to find the outers' arguments strangely compelling," she wrote, before quoting the list with some slightly different figures. "Take this example. The Lord's Prayer is 66 words long. The Ten Commandments: 79 words. The Gettysburg address: 272 words. EU regulations on the sale of cabbage? 26,911 words."

The claim goes back a lot further than this, however. The Tunbridge Wells branch of UKIP was tweeting about it back in 2014 and it appeared in a reader's letter published in the Leicester Mercury newspaper back in October 2000.

But surprisingly, it seems the origins of the statement lie not in Europe at all, but on the other side of the Atlantic in 1940s America.

During World War Two, the US government issued a memo to control the price of cabbage seeds. It was 2,600 words long, says Barry O'Neill, professor of political science at the University of California, who has researched the origins of the cabbage myth.

But at some point a rumour surfaced that the cabbage regulations were back - this time 10 times longer and not just confined to seeds.

In 1951 the president of a Chicago pickle and relish company mentioned it in a letter to food brokers across the country, and a newspaper quiz asked readers to match word counts with documents (Test Your Horse Sense 1951) - the cabbage regulation was said to be 25,000 words long. Soon this became 26,911 "suggesting careful research", says O'Neill.

# ? Apr 6, 2016 12:39

Spangly A: May 14, 2009; God help you if ever you're caught on these shores

A man's ambition must indeed be small
To write his name upon a shithouse wall

Tesseraction posted:

Those are authoritarians, at least going by their coincidental idolisation of Ronald Dump.

This is relevant to the bit I was looking for but modern Libertarianism was founded in the 50s to fight against the end of segregation. It was invented to promote white racial supremacy; there's a reason they look like they overlap with authoritarian racists. Koch and the Austrian school *are* authoritarian racists. They were nazi collaborators too.

# ? Apr 6, 2016 12:42

MrL_JaKiri: Sep 23, 2003; A bracing glass of carrot juice!

Tesseraction posted:

Those are authoritarians, at least going by their coincidental idolisation of Ronald Dump.

Yes, right wing libertarians/ancaps are authoritarians.

# ? Apr 6, 2016 12:43

Renaissance Robot: Oct 10, 2010; Bite my furry metal ass

dispatch_async posted:

Speaking of libertarian bullshit. BBC reveals right wing talking points are actually made up

It's a precise non-round number, so you know it must be true. Couldn't just make up a number like 26,911, nosir.

# ? Apr 6, 2016 12:45

Tesseraction: Apr 5, 2009

Spangly A posted:

This is relevant to the bit I was looking for but modern Libertarianism was founded in the 50s to fight against the end of segregation. It was invented to promote white racial supremacy; there's a reason they look like they overlap with authoritarian racists. Koch and the Austrian school *are* authoritarian racists. They were nazi collaborators too.

MrL_JaKiri posted:

Yes, right wing libertarians/ancaps are authoritarians.

True enough. There's also a hilarious overlap between libertarians and "child loving should be legal" that seems to be popping up a lot. By hilarious I mean terrifying, of course.

# ? Apr 6, 2016 12:45

Tesseraction: Apr 5, 2009

Renaissance Robot posted:

It's a precise non-round number, so you know it must be true. Couldn't just make up a number like 26,911, nosir.

Hang on... 26... nine eleven?

If we leave the EU it'll be like 26 9/11s!!! :supaburn:

# ? Apr 6, 2016 12:46

Fans: Jun 27, 2013; A reptile dysfunction

quote:

"Lord's Prayer - 66 words, 10 Commandments - 179 words, Gettysburg address - 286 words, EU regulations on the sale of cabbage - 26,911 words."

The Tradtional Lord's Prayer is 70 words long (Though I guess there are a lot of different versions), the 10 commandments requires 320 words (Again, different versions but it sure as gently caress ain't 179) and the Gettysburg Address is 272 words.

Someone can't count.

# ? Apr 6, 2016 12:48

Tesseraction: Apr 5, 2009

Are Fathre,
Who art in Heaven
Hallowed be thy name
gently caress the poor
I'll take all their money

Amen

# ? Apr 6, 2016 12:50

Spangly A: May 14, 2009; God help you if ever you're caught on these shores

A man's ambition must indeed be small
To write his name upon a shithouse wall

Fans posted:

The Tradtional Lord's Prayer is 70 words long (Though I guess there are a lot of different versions), the 10 commandments requires 320 words (Again, different versions but it sure as gently caress ain't 179) and the Gettysburg Address is 272 words.

Someone can't count.

which lords prayer? Matthew? Luke? which translation? Catholic or Protestant?

# ? Apr 6, 2016 12:50

Guavanaut: Nov 27, 2009; Looking At Them Tittys
1969 - 1998; Toilet Rascal

Tesseraction posted:

True enough. There's also a hilarious overlap between libertarians and "child loving should be legal" that seems to be popping up a lot. By hilarious I mean terrifying, of course.

Nah, that's just because they worked backwards and ended up with the wrong result.

1) I want to have all the power that people in hierarchical systems have.
2) One of those powers across a whole lot of them appears to be loving kids and getting off free.
3) Therefore I should be allowed to gently caress kids?

:gonk:

quote:

"Lord's Prayer - 66 words, 10 Commandments - 179 words, Gettysburg address - 286 words, EU regulations on the sale of cabbage - 26,911 words."

Atlas Shrugged is 561,996 words and half of those are galtse.cx

Guavanaut fucked around with this message at 12:53 on Apr 6, 2016

# ? Apr 6, 2016 12:50

Spangly A: May 14, 2009; God help you if ever you're caught on these shores

A man's ambition must indeed be small
To write his name upon a shithouse wall

holy poo poo the Yank lords prayer says "forgive us our debts"

what is wrong with that country

# ? Apr 6, 2016 12:52

Fans: Jun 27, 2013; A reptile dysfunction

Spangly A posted:

which lords prayer? Matthew? Luke? which translation? Catholic or Protestant?

The one that turns up first on Google obviously.

# ? Apr 6, 2016 12:54

kapparomeo: Apr 19, 2011; Some say his extreme-right links are clearly known, even in the fascist capitalist imperialist Murdochist press...

Spangly A posted:

holy poo poo the Yank lords prayer says "forgive us our debts"

what is wrong with that country

What are you on about? "Forgive us our debts" goes right back to the John Wycliffe Bible - published in 1395.

kapparomeo fucked around with this message at 13:06 on Apr 6, 2016

# ? Apr 6, 2016 12:56

Cerv: Sep 14, 2004; This is a silly post with little news value.

Spangly A posted:

holy poo poo the Yank lords prayer says "forgive us our debts"

what is wrong with that country

What's wrong with that? Rolls off the tounge easier than trespasses.

# ? Apr 6, 2016 12:58

Darth Walrus: Feb 13, 2012

lol

Another article that provides some interesting context.

# ? Apr 6, 2016 12:59

Phoon: Apr 23, 2010

the americans learned in south america that authoritarianism is required to maintain liberalism

# ? Apr 6, 2016 13:00

XMNN: Apr 26, 2008; I am incredibly stupid

that was from an episode of more or less that also had a p damning look at the evidence for nicky morgans academisation plan (spoiler alert: there isn't any)

the highlight was something along the lines of "this statistic is very specific so I assumed she had cherry picked a measure that made it look good... but it was just made up"

# ? Apr 6, 2016 13:06

communism bitch: Apr 24, 2009

My only regret is that this seems to have temporarily taken the heat off Osborne. Hope his fams are in there, but as I recall everybody already knows his dad's shop don't pay no tax.

# ? Apr 6, 2016 13:13

Spangly A: May 14, 2009; God help you if ever you're caught on these shores

A man's ambition must indeed be small
To write his name upon a shithouse wall

Cerv posted:

What's wrong with that? Rolls off the tounge easier than trespasses.

well in the context of what Matthew is saying "debt" makes no sense as an English translation, it's the whole braggart prayer thing. Sins, wrongs, faults all work better. Trespasses is a good translation. Infringe works too.

# ? Apr 6, 2016 13:18

Spangly A: May 14, 2009; God help you if ever you're caught on these shores

A man's ambition must indeed be small
To write his name upon a shithouse wall

Jesus giving a sermon on the mount and talking about debt, in the context of the practice of penalty indentured labourship to your victim, does not follow on to the modern use of debt. It's American Jesus and there's a reason we dont use it

kapparomeo posted:

What are you on about? "Forgive us our debts" goes right back to the John Wycliffe Bible - published in 1395.

hurrr durr what is historical context of language???

and debt/trespass changes the word limit

my mum is posting the email forward wish me luck

# ? Apr 6, 2016 13:20

OvineYeast: Jul 16, 2007; Freiheit ist immer Freiheit der Andersdenkenden

Spangly A posted:

well in the context of what Matthew is saying "debt" makes no sense as an English translation, it's the whole braggart prayer thing. Sins, wrongs, faults all work better. Trespasses is a good translation. Infringe works too.

Comes from the Latin tradition, where debita historically had a broader meaning akin to 'things one must account for', (cf. German Schuld).

# ? Apr 6, 2016 13:26

dispatch_async: Nov 28, 2014; Imagine having the time to have played through 20 generations of one family in The Sims 2. Imagine making the original two members of that family Neil Buchanan and Cat Deeley. Imagine complaining to Maxis there was no technological progression. You've successfully imagined my life

http://indy100.independent.co.uk/article/a-reminder-that-hmrc-actually-rents-its-hq-from-a-company-registered-in-a-tax-haven--bJ2PgGt9eZ

quote:

HMRC pays rent on its London headquarters to a private company called CIHL Infrastructure Holdings, registered in the tax haven of Jersey, and its 600 regional offices from a company called Mapeley Steps Limited, which is registered in the tax haven Bermuda, as the result of a private finance initiative (PFI).

Orignal story from 2002

quote:

The Inland Revenue has confirmed that it sold its estate of more than 600 buildings to a company based in a tax haven, and admits it wrongly announced the properties were sold to a UK firm.

The Inland Revenue confirmed its mistake following an investigation by BBC News Online.

The property firm says the Inland Revenue will be reaping financial benefits from dealing with a tax haven company.

In March 2001, the Revenue said it signed a private finance initiative (PFI) deal with the UK-registered Mapeley Limited, transferring to it the "ownership and management" of the estate.

In reality, though, the Inland Revenue sold the properties to a Bermuda-based sister company called Mapeley Steps Limited for �220m, while paying rent to a UK company called Mapeley Steps Contractors Limited.

"Inland Revenue and Customs & Excise dealt with Mapeley Limited during the two year procurement process," the Revenue said in a statement to BBC News Online.

"The precise contract structure was revealed fairly late in the procurement process and the press release incorrectly stated that the contract was awarded to Mapeley Limited."

"There was no intention to mislead."

All are part of Bermuda-based Mapeley Holdings Limited, a company ultimately owned by George Soros and US group Fortress Investment, which describes itself as an "alternative investment" company.

"Steps" stands for the "strategic transfer of the estate to the private sector".

# ? Apr 6, 2016 13:28

kapparomeo: Apr 19, 2011; Some say his extreme-right links are clearly known, even in the fascist capitalist imperialist Murdochist press...

Spangly A posted:

Jesus giving a sermon on the mount and talking about debt, in the context of the practice of penalty indentured labourship to your victim, does not follow on to the modern use of debt. It's American Jesus and there's a reason we dont use it

It's actually that the contemporary Aramaic uses the same word for both debt and sin, an evolution of the older concept of sin as a "weight", but in both cases a burden that we lay upon ourselves.

# ? Apr 6, 2016 13:30

dispatch_async: Nov 28, 2014; Imagine having the time to have played through 20 generations of one family in The Sims 2. Imagine making the original two members of that family Neil Buchanan and Cat Deeley. Imagine complaining to Maxis there was no technological progression. You've successfully imagined my life

Spangly A posted:

Jesus giving a sermon on the mount and talking about debt, in the context of the practice of penalty indentured labourship to your victim, does not follow on to the modern use of debt. It's American Jesus and there's a reason we dont use it

I believe the Church of Scotland (and Free church etc) uses debt/debtors. At least that's what my mother was taught as a child in Scotland.

# ? Apr 6, 2016 13:30

communism bitch: Apr 24, 2009

dispatch_async posted:

http://indy100.independent.co.uk/article/a-reminder-that-hmrc-actually-rents-its-hq-from-a-company-registered-in-a-tax-haven--bJ2PgGt9eZ

Orignal story from 2002

is this a fuckin joke am i dreaming

# ? Apr 6, 2016 13:34

Spangly A: May 14, 2009; God help you if ever you're caught on these shores

A man's ambition must indeed be small
To write his name upon a shithouse wall

you really would hope the catholic church learnt enough from the whole Mary debacle to translate things properly

Oberleutnant posted:

is this a fuckin joke am i dreaming

you aren't, the government isn't allowed to own things, it should exist only to create legislature (for the proles)

we don't even have enough time left as a society to kill the rich, despite there now being 69 people who own the poorer half of the world. It saddens me greatly that they'll never reap the whirlwhind because capitalism doesn't give you a clear enough face to punch.

Spangly A fucked around with this message at 13:36 on Apr 6, 2016

# ? Apr 6, 2016 13:34

Phoon: Apr 23, 2010

dispatch_async posted:

http://indy100.independent.co.uk/article/a-reminder-that-hmrc-actually-rents-its-hq-from-a-company-registered-in-a-tax-haven--bJ2PgGt9eZ

Orignal story from 2002

our reality is absurd

# ? Apr 6, 2016 13:46

Renaissance Robot: Oct 10, 2010; Bite my furry metal ass

Spangly A posted:

you really would hope the catholic church learnt enough from the whole Mary debacle to translate things properly

Don't think I've heard of this one, what was it?

Darth Walrus posted:

lol

Another article that provides some interesting context.

"Let me tell you about this one weird trick I discovered for holding on to my money"

Renaissance Robot fucked around with this message at 14:07 on Apr 6, 2016

# ? Apr 6, 2016 14:03

Hitler B. Natural: Feb 11, 2014

no.

Hitler B. Natural fucked around with this message at 14:10 on Apr 6, 2016

# ? Apr 6, 2016 14:05

Spangly A: May 14, 2009; God help you if ever you're caught on these shores

A man's ambition must indeed be small
To write his name upon a shithouse wall

Renaissance Robot posted:

Don't think I've heard of this one, what was it?

The immaculate conception was Mary being born free of sin, the idea she had a virgin birth is a mistranslation of I think the greek text via the bulgars?

e; Mary banged joseph is the point (or a Roman soldier), and this just got overruled by political use of zeitgeist.

Which would be my issue with using the word "debt" for its older meaning in a modern context. It does not now mean to laypeople what it once did, and while the virgin thing is funny somehow invoking finance with noted socialist JC is something that makes me feel queasy.

Spangly A fucked around with this message at 14:08 on Apr 6, 2016

# ? Apr 6, 2016 14:05

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# ? May 29, 2024 11:49

Dead Goon: Dec 13, 2002; No Obvious Flaws

Hitler B. Natural posted:

[tweet]https://twitter.com/LBC/status/717460847585574913[/tweet]

Check a few pages back.

# ? Apr 6, 2016 14:07

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