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euphronius posted:Han did become Han-dad. He didn't go back to being Han until Ben became a |sith lord| And Ben went evil because Han-dad doesn't work.
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Apr 6, 2016 17:48
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I'm going to throw a giant tantrum on the internet about how everything sucks because 'and they all lived happily ever after' is incompatible with the concept of a sequel
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Apr 6, 2016 17:48
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Big Mean Jerk posted:And Ben went evil because Han-dad doesn't work. Whoa that's a huge inference not supported by the text.
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Apr 6, 2016 17:49
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Big Mean Jerk posted:And Ben went evil because Han-dad doesn't work. It sounds like it's because Leia took him away and sent him to her brother.
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Apr 6, 2016 17:49
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if we're making the bar for parenting 'not working' sending the kid to boarding school then they really never had a chance in Hell They gave it a shot, poo poo happened, and they responded by reverting to their old roles (conveniently for a movie all about nostalgia for those old roles). That's not 'selfish' or 'not changing', that's a pretty normal go at the whole family thing that just... doesn't work out.
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Apr 6, 2016 17:50
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Big Mean Jerk posted:This guy gets it. You can have family conflict without portraying Han and Leia as selfish, negligent parents. There are some things you can't control. Children are separate individuals who make their own choices regardless of how well you guide them. That would be a far more interesting story to tell than what we got. Instead, the story is that Han and Leia just totally suck at being parents, and so of course Kylo turned out all hosed up. jivjov posted:And if the writers are going to make characters act certain ways, I appreciate consistency. Han and Leia long each other, deciding to start a family, and then being not the greatest at it is extremely consistent with how they're portrayed previously. Except it really isn't, because Han and Leia were portrayed as becoming mature, responsible adults. Which is now too unrealistic a concept for modern audiences to accept, apparently. A Wizard of Goatse posted:I'm going to throw a giant tantrum on the internet about how everything sucks because 'and they all lived happily ever after' is incompatible with the concept of a sequel What the hell? Stop stealing my moves, rear end in a top hat.
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Apr 6, 2016 17:50
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Ben probably goes bad because of drug abuse and rejection by his peers.
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Apr 6, 2016 17:53
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euphronius posted:Ben probably goes bad because of drug abuse and rejection by his peers. It's actually because he was molested by both Han and Luke. Leia was too busy working to notice anything was wrong.
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Apr 6, 2016 17:53
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Cnut the Great posted:Except it really isn't, because Han and Leia were portrayed as becoming mature, responsible adults. Which is now too unrealistic a concept for modern audiences to accept, apparently. was the scene where they filed a joint account and took out a mortgage for the bungalow with the nice garden on Coruscant in the new CGI-enhanced version, cause I think I only watched the first one of those
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Apr 6, 2016 17:53
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Cnut the Great posted:You can have family conflict without portraying Han and Leia as selfish, negligent parents. There are some things you can't control. Children are separate individuals who make their own choices regardless of how well you guide them. That would be a far more interesting story to tell than what we got. Instead, the story is that Han and Leia just totally suck at being parents, and so of course Kylo turned out all hosed up. No, the story is that Ben couldn't handle his family destiny (son of famous rebels and nephew of Jedi grandmaster) and started reading up on ol' grandad. Han and Leia being lovely parents enables all this, but Ben is hosed up because of his own choices.
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Apr 6, 2016 17:56
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This whole thing is almost certainly what Lucas really meant when he told that kid that all his favorite characters died after the movies. People want(and the EU delivered) Han and Luke and Leia's life to be non-stop adventure, but really the movies are showing us the biggest, most important moments of their entire lives. Sure, maybe Han goes back to smuggling, or maybe he doesn't. Maybe he and Leia have a few kids or maybe they don't. Then they die. We don't need to see any of that because its not exciting. That said, now that we're into a whole new era of Star Wars, I don't think it would have been a bad thing to have one or two of the returning characters subvert fan expectations more than they did. We may still get that though, we have no idea what's going on in Luke's head these days.
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Apr 6, 2016 17:56
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Mechafunkzilla posted:It's actually because he was molested by both Han and Luke. Leia was too busy working to notice anything was wrong. This is canon. If you don't like it, maybe you should just accept that sequels are fundamentally incompatible with the concept of happy endings.
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Apr 6, 2016 17:57
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I want Ren to send Leia an email so terrible that she dies also.
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Apr 6, 2016 17:57
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Viller posted:
Donnie Yen is totally a secret jedi and I bet there are hidden lightsabers in that staff
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Apr 6, 2016 17:59
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Basebf555 posted:This whole thing is almost certainly what Lucas really meant when he told that kid that all his favorite characters died after the movies. People want(and the EU delivered) Han and Luke and Leia's life to be non-stop adventure, but really the movies are showing us the biggest, most important moments of their entire lives. Sure, maybe Han goes back to smuggling, or maybe he doesn't. Maybe he and Leia have a few kids or maybe they don't. Then they die. We don't need to see any of that because its not exciting. it occurs to me that basically all of the big heroic myths Star Wars is cribbing from literally end with the hero dying violently, with the exception of Jason who dies a forgotten bum when a bit of his rotting ship falls on him A Wizard of Goatse fucked around with this message at 18:04 on Apr 6, 2016 |
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Apr 6, 2016 18:01
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computer parts posted:It sounds like it's because Leia took him away and sent him to her brother. Yeah she says she lost them both when she sent Ben away http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/mar/25/i-paid-to-have-my-daughter-kidnapped-experience
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Apr 6, 2016 19:08
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The Han and Leia romance was kinda lame in RotJ so I'm glad they got rid of it in TFA. I would never be able to accept Han as a family man
sponges fucked around with this message at 19:19 on Apr 6, 2016 |
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Apr 6, 2016 19:12
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NOT MY HAN SOLO
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Apr 6, 2016 19:36
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TFA is a bit of a downer in that it says "Remember all your favorite heroes? Yeah they had their little victories but ended up with hosed up lives. They were ultimately failures" Reminds me of the prequels which basically told the audience: "Remember when Obi Won talked up the Jedi as being these glorious protectors of peace and justice? Yeah well turns out they were actually a bunch of creepy monastic weirdo thugs for hire that got duped into being the drivers of their own destruction." It seems as if though the OT is the only place to go if you want Star Wars movies that aren't bleak and cynical. Y Kant Ozma Diet posted:The Han and Leia romance was kinda lame in RotJ so I'm glad they got rid of it in TFA. I would never be able to accept Han as a family man Both can be valid scenarios, and I've seen other parents relationships fall apart for less. G-III fucked around with this message at 20:13 on Apr 6, 2016 |
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Apr 6, 2016 20:07
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Basebf555 posted:People want(and the EU delivered) Han and Luke and Leia's life to be non-stop adventure, but really the movies are showing us the biggest, most important moments of their entire lives. Sure, maybe Han goes back to smuggling, or maybe he doesn't. There's a reason why, in the first and only non-EU EU novel, Splinter of the Mind's Eye, Han is only mentioned in passing, as just some smuggler that Luke knew. He had his interesting story, the plot was set up for the Luke/Leia romance, and that was going to be that. Instead, we got Empire, and the franchise is the better for it because it's a great film, but it's pretty easy to imagine a film series that didn't go that route. Here's Lance Parkin working out a hypothetical "cheap sequel": https://lanceparkin.wordpress.com/2013/02/12/star-wars-2/ quote:So it’s probably best to see what I’m about to say as a thought experiment, rather than some amazing intuition of an actual thing.
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Apr 6, 2016 20:07
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Toph Bei Fong posted:There's a reason why, in the first and only non-EU EU novel, Splinter of the Mind's Eye, Han is only mentioned in passing, as just some smuggler that Luke knew. He had his interesting story, the plot was set up for the Luke/Leia romance, and that was going to be that. Instead, we got Empire, and the franchise is the better for it because it's a great film, but it's pretty easy to imagine a film series that didn't go that route. That plus nobody knew if they could get Harrison back for a sequel even if they'd wanted to.
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Apr 6, 2016 20:13
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G-III posted:TFA is a bit of a downer in that it says "Remember all your favorite heroes? Yeah they had their little victories but ended up with hosed up lives. They were ultimately failures" Well, they did get a few decades of relative peace as the Empire kept shrinking. They may have ended up as bad parents, but thats entirely realistic; even the best of people can end up unprepared to raise a child. Especially one getting tugged around by light side and dark side influence. Is it sad? A bit, But thats life. You have your good moments and your bad moments. Few people actually die peacefully in their sleep. Ultimately what's more important is the question "was their failure necessary for the story?", and (in my opinion) it was; by leveraging this tragic element they've succeeded in creating a new Darth Vader figure that is just as menacing and pitiable as Anakin in the span of one film. On top of that, their failure in enacting Everlasting Peace Forever allows them to tell a story more relatable to our current situation and our current generation. Han's (and eventually Leia's) failure and end becomes a noble, redemptive end, precisely because he tried to be Luke and make things right in spite of all odds, and even in failure has resulted in a huge influence in both Rey and Kylo (which puts Han in a similar role as Kenobi, insert poetry joke here).
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Apr 6, 2016 20:21
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Vintersorg posted:NOT MY HAN SOLO The irony is that this is exactly what people who want Han Solo to always be who he was in ANH are saying. If you want to justify the existence of a sequel that didn't really need to exist, "the new characters are quippy young adults, just like millenials!" doesn't really cut it as a justification. If they can't think of anything interesting to do with the old characters, then they could've set it far enough in the future that those characters were no longer around. A passing of the torch narrative doesn't work so well if you disrespect the characters who formerly held the torch. I'm curious how you guys would react if in the next movie Rey were to get a lightsaber through the dome and be replaced by another character without ever accomplishing much more beyond bringing Luke a lightsaber. Would you explain how sometimes young people full of potential die young In Real Life and it's totally fine? Or would you be disappointed that the character didn't really live up to what she was supposed to be because Disney wanted to make someone else the hero? There are right ways and wrong ways to pass the torch to new generations and the theme of legacies doesn't justify anything and everything one does with the older generation of characters.
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Apr 6, 2016 20:35
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Han didn't die unceremoniously, and had far more of an impact in TFA than he did in ROTJ.
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Apr 6, 2016 20:37
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Neurolimal posted:Han didn't die unceremoniously, and had far more of an impact in TFA than he did in ROTJ. Yeah but if the shield generator had been online, then the attack on the Death Star II would have failed!
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Apr 6, 2016 20:50
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Neurolimal posted:Han didn't die unceremoniously, and had far more of an impact in TFA than he did in ROTJ. But it's not the death itself that people like Cnut and computer parts are talking about, it's the sense of the old characters being little more than failures to be pushed aside for the "real" heroes. The new heroes don't seem to be facing their own new challenges, they're instead facing the same challenges as the old ones, but the "right" way this time. That's both disrespectful to the iconic original characters and a pretty boring way of bigging up the new ones. No one is bothered by the prospect of there being a new generation of heroes/protagonists, it's the way it's done that's raising some eyebrows. While I'm not trying to resurrect the "Mary Sue" thing, if I were to write a fanfiction for, let's say, Sherlock Holmes, and I introduced Sherlock's smarter, tougher, more talented, more attractive son or daughter who comes on the scene as we realize that every case Sherlock Holmes ever solved was actually solved incorrectly and Professor Moriarty is actually still around, so that said son or daughter can solve all the crimes the right way and beat Moriarty for real this time, who is accompanied by the child of John Watson who is also better than the previous Watson in nearly every way, people would rightly criticize it as bad writing. Now, almost nothing in TFA is that exaggerated, but there's some similarities between it and that style of fanfiction.
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Apr 6, 2016 21:07
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This has more to do with hopeless devotion to these characters. Who cares if TFA disrespects loving Han Solo? The OT was a lifetime ago.
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Apr 6, 2016 21:12
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Y Kant Ozma Diet posted:This has more to do with hopeless devotion to these characters. Who cares if TFA disrespects loving Han Solo? The OT was a lifetime ago. And yet they've endured for generations. Big, iconic characters mean a lot to a lot of people, so the notion that when you finally "replace" them it should be done carefully isn't particularly outlandish.
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Apr 6, 2016 21:19
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Beeez posted:And yet they've endured for generations. Big, iconic characters mean a lot to a lot of people, so the notion that when you finally "replace" them it should be done carefully isn't particularly outlandish. They weren't replaced, and it was done carefully. Being a good character does not mean "keep them alive and relevant forever so that old people don't get mad". People grow old, they make mistakes, they die. The fact that the senior citizen shows up at all, let alone gets an enormous influential role for three of the main characters, is in itself a display of respect.
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Apr 6, 2016 21:23
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I can honestly understand both arguments (mostly). But as someone who grew up reading stories about Han and Leia living happily (more or less) ever after, I'm ready for something new. I never thought Han's family life in the old EU really fit him. Not because I wanted the cocky rear end in a top hat from ANH, but simply because the stories never suited him. Of the dozens of EU authors who took a stab at it, none of them seemed to make him click in that post-Jedi universe. He was usually relegated to comic relief or audience insert ("Who are these guys? Why can't I just shoot them?"), and that's a really boring use for Han Solo. His role in TFA has more weight and importance than anything since Empire. A heartbroken Han finding a renewed purpose in helping the new cast? Fantastic. That final attempt to redeem a son he still loves? Incredible.
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Apr 6, 2016 21:25
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Kinda off topic, but I always hated what was done with Solo in ROTJ. I felt like the character was kind of neutered, used for comic relief at times, and everything that was cool about him in ANH and ESB was gone. I felt like that watching it for the first time in 1983, and still do now. I always wondered if it was because Harrison had wanted the character dead for a while, didn't want to be in ep. 6, maybe not in 5, so Lucas thought "gently caress it, we'll make him lame then" For what it's worth I enjoyed Solo a lot more in TFA than in ROTJ.
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Apr 6, 2016 21:28
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Neurolimal posted:They weren't replaced, and it was done carefully. Being a good character does not mean "keep them alive and relevant forever so that old people don't get mad". People grow old, they make mistakes, they die. Again, no one is saying they should be relevant forever in the sense of being the main characters. But there's a difference between them leaving behind a legacy for these new protagonists to interact with and experience as part of their world, and their legacy literally being passing their unfinished tasks on to the new characters. As I said before, this also has the effect of making the new characters' challenges less interesting. Rey's journey simply being Luke's redone in a more modern way seems a far less interesting prospect to me than her journey being totally unique and independent of "resurrecting the Jedi and restoring the Republic for real this time".
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Apr 6, 2016 21:32
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really we shoulda just gotten Harrison Ford's Grand Torino with lasers
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Apr 6, 2016 21:43
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Has Ford ever commented or said anything about what he thinks about the Solo origin movie or is he so far removed from the character now that he's done his death scene that he doesn't even give a poo poo anymore? I mean he's the reason why the character is as iconic as it is.
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Apr 6, 2016 21:47
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Neurolimal posted:They weren't replaced, and it was done carefully. Being a good character does not mean "keep them alive and relevant forever so that old people don't get mad". People grow old, they make mistakes, they die. I don't think Han Solo's presence in TFA was careful. The character itself, sure, but the care and feet of film lavished on Solo were at the expense of surprise (another death star, another trench run, another "use the Force" make-or-break moment) and the development of the next generation's characters. It was a very safe move, since they knew they'd get at least one more sequel movie to make it up to people.
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Apr 6, 2016 21:50
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Toph Bei Fong posted:Here's Lance Parkin working out a hypothetical "cheap sequel": https://lanceparkin.wordpress.com/2013/02/12/star-wars-2/ This is complete nonsense. The creation of Empire in its various incarnations is well documented and it bears no resemblance to what that guy "worked out". Trying to imagine what a sequel would be based on the patterns of other sequels of the time is an interesting thought experiment, but him trying to work out what early versions of Empire were in doing so is all hot air. Also, out of curiosity I read that guy's newest post about Blade Runner. Total garbage.
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Apr 6, 2016 21:52
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AndyElusive posted:Has Ford ever commented or said anything about what he thinks about the Solo origin movie or is he so far removed from the character now that he's done his death scene that he doesn't even give a poo poo anymore? I mean he's the reason why the character is as iconic as it is. This is his response to "What advice would you give the actor playing Young Han Solo?" Harrison Ford posted:I would say, ‘Talk to your director. Watch the movies. And welcome aboard. Make it your own.
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Apr 6, 2016 21:54
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I think its interesting that you all think the ot characters are failures in tfa because they didnt completely crush their opposition, rule the galaxy in peace, have a perfect family life and become dean of a thriving new jedi school for 30 years straight
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Apr 6, 2016 22:20
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I don't even think they're particularly bad parents. They raised Ben to a certain age, he's super powerful in the force, so they wanted to cultivate to be the Light side (afraid of too much Vader in him) and sent him to Jedi training camp with Uncle Luke. This seems like a good decision; Luke is in the family and a exemplary Light Jedi. Unfortunately, unbeknownst to them, Snoke, a dark side user, had been keeping eyes on Ben, as he's a force user from an incredible lineage of force users. Snoke seduces him to the Darkside. I'm sure Leia most likely told him "hey don't fall to the darkside!" just like most good parents tell their kids to not do drugs, etc. Once Ben falls to the darkside and kills all the students, that's when Leia loses Han as well (she says this explicitly in the film). At that point, Han probably feels like a failure of a father, that he should have done more. This is how every good parent would feel in this situation. Bad parents wouldn't care. But he does, and it ruins him and he returns to a life of smuggling. Leia returns to generalizing. I fail to see how they were bad parents in this situation. They made good decisions, they tried. Some good parents fail.
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Apr 6, 2016 22:48
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Big Mean Jerk posted:This is his response to "What advice would you give the actor playing Young Han Solo?" Real drat big shoes to follow. I'm optimistically hopeful A Boy and His Wookie is done well when so much hinges on the right charismatic actor being chosen for the part. Kly posted:I think its interesting that you all think the ot characters are failures in tfa because they didnt completely crush their opposition, rule the galaxy in peace, have a perfect family life and become dean of a thriving new jedi school for 30 years straight Isn't the whole reason why Luke even goes into self imposed exile because he personally felt like a failure?
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Apr 6, 2016 22:55
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