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It is kind of strange where paradox draws the line, for example, you can nuke cities, something that is implied to kill thousands of civilians, but you cannot use chemical weapons against military units, something that was simulated in Vicky. I guess there is an argument that they weren't militarily significant even with Japan's use of them in China. Mostly though I think paradox has handled the issues around a game that encourages you to play hitler as well as they can.
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Apr 8, 2016 13:47
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Biological and chemical weapons would require a research tree where you have a race of better pathogen/gas vs better protection, along with some options on where and when they are allowed. Using them first should be a good way to get a lot of neutral countries to be quite displeased about your cruelty and more importantly, give the opponent a reason to use them without any backlash.
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Apr 8, 2016 14:09
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Speaking of Hearts of Iron and War Crimes HOI4 dev Diary on Sound and Music (with a sample song) https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/hearts-of-iron-iv-development-diary-51-music-sound-design.919038/ and a Stellaris Video DD https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bd2YFhvZDyQ
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Apr 8, 2016 16:08
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:Pretty sure the Rape of Nanking was actually in HoI2, possibly in 3 too? Not really sure why that one was seen as fine to let through though. Wasn't the Rape of Nanking event just an event for the US that moved it towards intervention? It wasn't, like, a decision you made when playing as Japan. The equivalent would be, I don't know, if the Allies and Soviets sometimes got an "Atrocities Revealed" effect that boosted their national unity when advancing through German territory. I think that'd be tasteful enough, and probably not what the creepy fucks at the Paradox forums would want...
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Apr 8, 2016 16:09
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In WWW there was an event that popped up when Nanjing fell-- I didn't get a chance to read the whole thing, but I don't think it was a lengthy description of Japanese war crimes.
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Apr 8, 2016 16:10
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This is going to be my HoI4 soundtrack: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsdawgd0azk
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Apr 8, 2016 16:38
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Tuskin38 posted:Speaking of Hearts of Iron and War Crimes Really loved the sample song, if the rest of the soundtrack is of a similar quality then we're in for a treat. So far I'm really loving the changes to HoI4, coming from ~200 hours in DH and HoI3 I love seeing some of the pointless details removed. Like, do I really care about the 2-3 fascist parties/factions inside of the German Reich, the only thing that really affects gameplay is whether I'm Fascist, Communist, or Democratic anyway, not the specific flavour of each. In HoI4 it seems, instead of managing 2-4 different parties for each ideology, there is just a single party for any of the 4 ideologies, an abstraction of the real-world that I will happily accept because the party system provided no value to the game and served only to overcomplicate what should be a simple system. Neobdragon fucked around with this message at 16:50 on Apr 8, 2016 |
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Apr 8, 2016 16:41
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Angry Salami posted:Wasn't the Rape of Nanking event just an event for the US that moved it towards intervention? It wasn't, like, a decision you made when playing as Japan. The equivalent would be, I don't know, if the Allies and Soviets sometimes got an "Atrocities Revealed" effect that boosted their national unity when advancing through German territory. I think that'd be tasteful enough, and probably not what the creepy fucks at the Paradox forums would want...
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Apr 8, 2016 16:55
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GaussianCopula posted:This is going to be my HoI4 soundtrack: I already play CK2 and EU4 with Sabaton in the background generally, so nothing really changes for me.
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Apr 8, 2016 16:59
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Ofaloaf posted:That actually sounds like a pretty good way to be more forthright with the issue, without letting anyone press a 'genocide' button while they have Osprey Publishing's Men-at-Arms 401- The Waffen SS (1) and a tissue box at hand. Very weird if they have it for Nanking but not for the Holocaust etc though. e: personally I have really mixed feelings about trying to remove the holocaust from the WW2 game so we get a Cleaner Toy Soldiers Experience. I understand it's a messy subject and censorship etc so I can't exactly fault Paradox for their stance, but I think trying to claim the moral high ground over the (alleged) literal Nazis on the Paradox forums you all keep talking about who will make all these horrible mods while essentially whitewashing an inseparable part of the war is kinda weird. Koramei fucked around with this message at 17:10 on Apr 8, 2016 |
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Apr 8, 2016 17:05
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Portraying Nanking is not forbidden by German law.
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Apr 8, 2016 17:08
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You know what, gently caress Germany. They did a bad thing. And a player shouldn't feel good when they are conquering Europe as them in a game. At least if they are in any way a decent human being. I think idea of a "war crimes/death camps discovered" event is not necessarily a bad idea, with it either boosting the national unity of Germany's enemies or hurting fascist party strength in those and neutral countries. That being said I don't think it is necessary for a game to portray the Holocaust, but any medium that essentially covers the whole of WW2 should ideally acknowledge it. Ofaloaf posted:That actually sounds like a pretty good way to be more forthright with the issue, without letting anyone press a 'genocide' button while they have Osprey Publishing's Men-at-Arms 401- The Waffen SS (1) and a tissue box at hand. Nah, it's worse than that there's like a separate book for every single SS division or something. e: In the German version is it only Hitler's face blacked out or does he have another name as well? If he's still Hitler just with a shadow face I don't really understand those cencorship laws at all, I mean it's okay that you're playing Hitler as long as his face is hidden like he's the Prophet Muhammad or something? Randarkman fucked around with this message at 17:37 on Apr 8, 2016 |
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Apr 8, 2016 17:11
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I guess I'll just quote my post about this over in the MilHist thread instead of rewriting the whole thing:Empress Theonora posted:I think I've posted about this in the Paradox thread, but since we're talking about it here, too, as much as I'm looking forward to HoI IV it's also kind of troubling? It makes me wonder what the best approach to making a WWII strategy game that's respectful of its subject matter. When you don't acknowledge the Holocaust at all, you're basically creating a sanitized version of horrific historical events, Clean Wehrmacht Simulator 2016. But if you do, then you've just made a game where the player explicitly reenacts a specific real world genocide and that's horrible?
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Apr 8, 2016 17:35
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The obvious answer is to play the inevitable Kaiserreich mod which will be genocide-free.
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Apr 8, 2016 17:37
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Kavak posted:Portraying Nanking is not forbidden by German law. Portraying the Holocaust itself is not forbidden by German law. The problem is that contrary to the Rape of Nanking it was not a singular event that was not directly controlled by the government but a government policy, which means the player would have to actively decide "I think it's a good idea to start the holocaust". Now, to be a meaningful decision this would have to have an upside and downside, otherwise there is no justification for it to be in the game. But if enacting the holocaust policy/decision gives you money/national unity whatever, you really quickly come into the territory where you are actually advocating for the holocaust, which is forbidden by German law.
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Apr 8, 2016 17:37
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Kavak posted:The obvious answer is to play the inevitable Kaiserreich mod which will be genocide-free. I remember doing plenty of awful stuff in Kaiserreich. GaussianCopula posted:Portraying the Holocaust itself is not forbidden by German law. The problem is that contrary to the Rape of Nanking it was not a singular event that was not directly controlled by the government but a government policy, which means the player would have to actively decide "I think it's a good idea to start the holocaust". Now, to be a meaningful decision this would have to have an upside and downside, otherwise there is no justification for it to be in the game. But if enacting the holocaust policy/decision gives you money/national unity whatever, you really quickly come into the territory where you are actually advocating for the holocaust, which is forbidden by German law. You could put it somewhat out of the player's hands by making it so a Germany ruled by fascists will set a flag for holocaust events to trigger. Which should mostly be of the style of the old Nanking event that influences an enemy country, rather than something that works to the benefit of Germany. Also in the event of a nazi victory in the east there's the fact that the even more mind boggingly horrible Generalplan Ost would be enacted. Most people know about the Holocaust, but most don't really know that the Nazis basically had something far worse (or atleast something at a much larger scale) planned out. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 17:45 on Apr 8, 2016 |
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Apr 8, 2016 17:39
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i think the best way to portray it would be to have it as a flavor-text event popup that happens at some point. That way, you're being historically accurate (because it happens, and at the appropriate time), and you're not ascribing it any value determination in the form of game mechanics, either positive or negative. Furthermore, you're not presenting a sanitized version of WW2 (and thereby engaging in Holocaust denial). It needs to be "This is a thing that happened", in the way there are some event popups in EU4, rather than a "Press here to kill all the Jews" button.
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Apr 8, 2016 17:42
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I hope you're having fun playing your map game! Here is a reminder: Tens of millions of people, just like you, actually died suffering because of the actions you are simulating. (If only we lived in more enlightened times.) (It's an omen!)
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Apr 8, 2016 18:18
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Some of the Stellaris music, perticularly the music in the Video dev reminds me of Last Airbender/LOK
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Apr 8, 2016 18:24
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Empress Theonora posted:I guess I'll just quote my post about this over in the MilHist thread instead of rewriting the whole thing: Good post. It's interesting to think about how to represent these things in games. The really hosed up part is if you wanted to be 'accurate' any holocaust event would really only matter to the countries in Eastern Europe. As Tony Judt pointed out "we must remember that what is truly awful about the destruction of the Jews is not that it mattered so much but that it mattered so little." You get caught between showing how little people cared at the time but at the same time doing so looks like you don't care either. Ultimately there's no resolving this tension, like people have posted above you just accept you're playing a game that lets you be Hitler. Dreylad fucked around with this message at 18:54 on Apr 8, 2016 |
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Apr 8, 2016 18:50
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If people are upset at horrible war crimes and genocide not being in Hoi4 they can come on over to the Stellaris thread. We've got purging, we've got slavery, we've got explicit policies related to all these things. No historical baggage so go hog wild with the worst crimes you can imagine. (Actually mostly we have embarrassing levels of excitement and sperging)
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Apr 8, 2016 18:51
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Things you never expected to read:quote:"There is one man who can explain everything," said King, "and that man is Karl Marx."
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Apr 8, 2016 18:56
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Jeoh posted:Things you never expected to read: I don't think any intelligent conservative completely throws out Marxism, especially when used as an analytical tool.
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Apr 8, 2016 19:08
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Watching the last Stellaris stream, there was an Asteroid named 'HAL-1000'
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Apr 8, 2016 19:40
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Tuskin38 posted:Watching the last Stellaris stream, there was an Asteroid named 'HAL-1000' There was a TLDR one too
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Apr 8, 2016 19:57
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The only reason I can think of to justify including the Holocaust and whatnot is that you could argue Nazi ideology actively messed up their war effort so having some events related to it that ding IC or manpower could make sense, but you could model that with some generic Nazi incompetence events and it's not like you can't just mod that crap in if you really want to be reminded of how much Nazis sucked.
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Apr 8, 2016 20:06
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A realistic penalty to the nazi political system would be arms industries making new variations of tanks on their own and then putting them into production
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Apr 8, 2016 20:14
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Axis playthroughs should end with receiving a death sentence at the Nuremberg trials imho.
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Apr 8, 2016 20:24
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Any time you are about to win an encirclement, there is a 50% chance that the units will be reassigned and the attack called off. The player cannot stop this.
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Apr 8, 2016 20:24
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They should have a feature like in shadow president where your own party could just murder you with no warning for policy differences.
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Apr 8, 2016 20:27
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Slaughterhouse-Ive posted:The only reason I can think of to justify including the Holocaust and whatnot is that you could argue Nazi ideology actively messed up their war effort so having some events related to it that ding IC or manpower could make sense, but you could model that with some generic Nazi incompetence events and it's not like you can't just mod that crap in if you really want to be reminded of how much Nazis sucked. No Holocaust mods allowed on the forums
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Apr 8, 2016 20:30
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I don't think it's possible, in a game like this, to depict the Holocaust in a way that isn't maudlin, callous, or actively evil. Of course, not depicting it also is a way of depicting it. So it's always going to be the elephant in the room. In this, the year 2016, probably including the Holocaust, no matter how you did it, would be seized upon by the scum that is the gamer community to enthusiastically reenact it. But then you're just encouraging the "noble Wehrmacht" myth by even including the Axis powers as playable factions anyway.
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Apr 8, 2016 20:32
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sparatuvs posted:They should have a feature like in shadow president where your own party could just murder you with no warning for policy differences.
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Apr 8, 2016 20:35
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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:I don't think it's possible, in a game like this, to depict the Holocaust in a way that isn't maudlin, callous, or actively evil. Of course, not depicting it also is a way of depicting it. So it's always going to be the elephant in the room. In this, the year 2016, probably including the Holocaust, no matter how you did it, would be seized upon by the scum that is the gamer community to enthusiastically reenact it. But then you're just encouraging the "noble Wehrmacht" myth by even including the Axis powers as playable factions anyway. Yeah, that's the thing-- there's something gross-feeling about the game basically just portraying the Clean Wehrmacht fighting a gentleman's war, but I can't really think of what a better way to handle it would be without ending up just making an entirely different kind of game from the systems-based economic-industrial-political-military grad strategy game HoI IV is.
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Apr 8, 2016 20:40
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Paradox should publish a statistic one month after the game is released with a % of playtime spent with each nation. I'm pretty confident that Germany will be by far the most popular, which means random events that tell you that your country is actually efficient are not that much fun, especially given that fact that you are controlling stuff like production and for many players their goal is to outperform the Nazis.
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Apr 8, 2016 20:40
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There's no perfect answer, I think Paradox went with the better of the available options though
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Apr 8, 2016 20:42
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Ghost of Mussolini posted:I'm still quite excited for HoI4 and it is looking very good, but I can't say that I was very impressed with the AI Chinas in the World War Wednesday stream (now on youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeliuhVoUoI). It basically collapsed in under two years in the face of a very underprepared Japan. Daniel threw in tons of island garrisons (infantry formations not equivalent to full divisions both in lower quality of equipment and because they have less sub-units) and kept attacking all along the front, seemingly constantly not pausing at all from one attack to the other with the same unit. It reminded me a lot of how quickly the USSR folded against Germany in the previous stream (a Germany that had a really mismanaged economy/OOB because it went through three different players who just did all sorts of random things). I think AI China shouldn't be able to just eat Manchuria, but by all means should be able to throw up enough low-tier infantry to at least hold the line against Japan, which shouldn't be pulling off encirclements in low-infrastructure bad-terrain provinces in 1936 using basically just the starting army. I hope this stuff is still more indicative of the fact that we are two whole months away and that their build kept changing from one video to another. It was a good video but I also hope there is quite a lot of balance left to be done, since right now and with the previous playthrough with Germany doctrines and good equipment seem too strong. Since even if China has poo poo equipment Japan shouldn't be able to crush them in two years with under a 100,000 casualties. However the thing is that Daniel is also the guy at Paradox that is the best at the game, I think he said that he has more playtime than there is time left to release. Therefore balancing according to how he plays might be quite foolish.
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Apr 8, 2016 20:42
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GaussianCopula posted:Paradox should publish a statistic one month after the game is released with a % of playtime spent with each nation. I'm pretty confident that Germany will be by far the most popular, which means random events that tell you that your country is actually efficient are not that much fun, especially given that fact that you are controlling stuff like production and for many players their goal is to outperform the Nazis. I thought they previously stated that some kind of market research or whatever had determined that a majority of players did play as Germany, but that statistic is almost completely meaningless in a world where people like playing games as the historical losing side to see if they can beat the "challenge" of history.
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Apr 8, 2016 20:43
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A Buttery Pastry posted:You get escalating events informing you of the Holocaust being carried out, choosing any option but "I, Adolf Hitler, am fully in favor of the destruction of the Jews through the use summary executions and extermination camps." results in a German civil war where the player is put in control of regular conservative Wehrmacht dudes. Winning this war after having chosen any of the other options in the first Holocaust event gives the player the "Clean Wehrmacht" achievement. This reminds me that the communist germany mod owned and I want it to be a thing for HoI4.
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Apr 8, 2016 20:51
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Drone posted:I thought they previously stated that some kind of market research or whatever had determined that a majority of players did play as Germany, but that statistic is almost completely meaningless in a world where people like playing games as the historical losing side to see if they can beat the "challenge" of history. The point is that a huge share of the audience is motivated by the idea of outperforming old Adi, which means you can't hard code all the deficiencies of Nazi Germany in the game, because that would mean the player can't realize his version of history but is bound to repeat the mistakes of history.
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Apr 8, 2016 20:55
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