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holocaust bloopers posted:Ok great. I've got Use Of Weapons queued up next, and then I'll get to these two. Awesome! I would recommend Excession, then LTW. In my opinion LTW works better the more you know about the Culture universe.
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Apr 9, 2016 00:48
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General Battuta posted:Yes they are.
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Apr 9, 2016 02:59
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freebooter posted:I virtually never give up on books but I got about 80 pages into John Crowley's Little, Big and decided it was going nowhere fast. Someone tell me I'm wrong? I love Little, Big but yea, it's extremely dense textually and slow moving beyond that.
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Apr 9, 2016 04:06
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freebooter posted:I virtually never give up on books but I got about 80 pages into John Crowley's Little, Big and decided it was going nowhere fast. Someone tell me I'm wrong? It helps to think of it as more of magical realist book than fantasy. anilEhilated fucked around with this message at 10:52 on Apr 9, 2016 |
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Apr 9, 2016 10:50
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I'm a bit over 50% through Player of Games and I'm still waiting for it to impress me. It's not terrible but I have some serious problems with it. Maybe most notable is how human-like the Azadi are, to the point where the larger focus is on what separates them from humans (and modern day humanity) than what makes them interesting. Also the mega naive protagonist who can't fathom power dynamics makes me roll my eyes a bit, though I do like his character in general since he's kind of a jerk and I don't think he realises it, and I do like the AI characters since I get the feeling there is some stuff going on there which will come out later.
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Apr 9, 2016 12:32
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Neurosis posted:I'm a bit over 50% through Player of Games and I'm still waiting for it to impress me. It's not terrible but I have some serious problems with it. Maybe most notable is how human-like the Azadi are, to the point where the larger focus is on what separates them from humans (and modern day humanity) than what makes them interesting. Also the mega naive protagonist who can't fathom power dynamics makes me roll my eyes a bit, though I do like his character in general since he's kind of a jerk and I don't think he realises it, and I do like the AI characters since I get the feeling there is some stuff going on there which will come out later. PoG was written relatively early into his career and some things didn't quite gel yet. That said, it probably is the Culture book with the most straightforward narrative. The thing with the Azadi is they're kind of a substitute for the British Empire/public school old boys club, a trope that Banks employs (with greater success) in The Algebraist as well. I liked Excession a lot more, with all the Minds' machinations and plotting, but Look to Windward was the absolute peak of the series.
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Apr 9, 2016 13:43
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The second big problem I have is how uninteresting the Culture seem to be compared to some other advanced societies I've read of in sci fi - the zoku and Sobornost, the Golden Oecumene, the Schismatrix, the Diaspora, in contrast, pursue extremely interesting artistic ideas which I could see rewarding even superhuman intellects - okay, these guys are physically powerful, but the ideas coming through the book aren't terribly interesting, and the humans just seem like infantile 20th century types, provided with anything they want. But I will accept other books may be better and this book may get better, and given that this forum is usually not too far wrong I'll sally forth.
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Apr 9, 2016 14:48
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freebooter posted:I virtually never give up on books but I got about 80 pages into John Crowley's Little, Big and decided it was going nowhere fast. Someone tell me I'm wrong? You're wrong, but if you're not enjoying it after 80 pages try something else 
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Apr 9, 2016 15:01
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Neurosis posted:The second big problem I have is how uninteresting the Culture seem to be compared to some other advanced societies I've read of in sci fi - the zoku and Sobornost, the Golden Oecumene, the Schismatrix, the Diaspora, in contrast, pursue extremely interesting artistic ideas which I could see rewarding even superhuman intellects - okay, these guys are physically powerful, but the ideas coming through the book aren't terribly interesting, and the humans just seem like infantile 20th century types, provided with anything they want. The Culture examines some of its ideas more closely in other books, but really--given virtually unlimited resources, wouldn't most humans behave pretty much like the Culture does? Most of the humans in the Culture are just human, if long-lived. The AI are the only ones smarter than people and they find it a fairly trivial thing to provide for all human comfort and then do whatever other things they care about. It's true that the Culture seeks out extracurricular activities for moral reasons, and to occupy those few members who cannot exist in happy equilibrium, but it is mostly happy to keep to itself. If it is boring, it is because it seeks the real--real people mostly watch TV. It was a major point in Consider Phlebas that the assassin hated the Culture because they lacked purpose and basically fattened people up and let them enjoy it--thus giving them no motive for anything else. That does make the Culture a challenge to write about, and a lot of other 'post-scarcity' sci-fi has to find ways around the same issue: given all the food, sex, and drugs they want, why would people do stuff? So we get the Sobornost, as an example, who are woefully terrifying slavers seeking a theoretically noble goal. But man, the Culture sounds like a kinda nice place to live, if not always to write about. occamsnailfile fucked around with this message at 15:40 on Apr 9, 2016 |
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Apr 9, 2016 15:37
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Neurosis posted:The second big problem I have is how uninteresting the Culture seem to be compared to some other advanced societies I've read of in sci fi - the zoku and Sobornost, the Golden Oecumene, the Schismatrix, the Diaspora, in contrast, pursue extremely interesting artistic ideas which I could see rewarding even superhuman intellects - okay, these guys are physically powerful, but the ideas coming through the book aren't terribly interesting, and the humans just seem like infantile 20th century types, provided with anything they want. I'm totally with you wrt those post-scarcity societies, and it's probably a big reason why I liked Banks' Algebraist better than the two Culture novels (UoW, Excession) I've read up until now. Setting/worldbuilding has always been a big draw for me and somehow the series just fails to really click 
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Apr 9, 2016 21:53
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I'm Real Mad 'cause I just dragged myself through the third Locke Lamora novel thinking it was a trilogy and that I might as well grind it out 'til the end just to see what happens, but it turns out it's just the third book in a series of seven?? Who the gently caress is Scott Lynch thinking? The "clever dick scoundrel tricksters his way through Situations while the author vomits out flashbacks" was worn out two chapters into the second novel, and somehow he's going to write four more? Ugh. Really wish I had paid attention, because I wouldn't have bothered re-reading any of these.
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Apr 9, 2016 22:11
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Hell, the main reason that the Culture hasn't become a stagnant has-been is because goddammit they're not resting on their laurels until all these other barbarians are dragged into utopia as well. Actually, one of my favourite ideas in the series is that the Excession shows that they haven't reached peak technology at all. All the civilisations that get to the Culture's level, then sublime or call it a day, are wasting their potential as surely as some planetbound losers who global warming themselves.
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Apr 9, 2016 22:15
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idiotsavant posted:I'm Real Mad 'cause I just dragged myself through the third Locke Lamora novel thinking it was a trilogy and that I might as well grind it out 'til the end just to see what happens, but it turns out it's just the third book in a series of seven?? Who the gently caress is Scott Lynch thinking? The "clever dick scoundrel tricksters his way through Situations while the author vomits out flashbacks" was worn out two chapters into the second novel, and somehow he's going to write four more? Ugh. Really wish I had paid attention, because I wouldn't have bothered re-reading any of these. I wanna say he was planning on writing a trilogy before the publisher threw him money to write four additional books.
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Apr 9, 2016 22:35
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holocaust bloopers posted:I wanna say he was planning on writing a trilogy before the publisher threw him money to write four additional books. Possibly just two books, depending. But that's the reality of publishing for genre stuff.
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Apr 9, 2016 22:39
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holocaust bloopers posted:I wanna say he was planning on writing a trilogy before the publisher threw him money to write four additional books. Didn't he have a breakdown recently too regarding the series and the pressure of the publisher deadlines? Or is that just some rumor floating around?
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Apr 9, 2016 23:20
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Even two books was a bad idea. He basically reused all the devices of the first book and it got really stale, really fast. He also wrote himself straight into a corner with the first book by giving them The World's Worst Near-Omnipotent Enemy and ensuring that every sequel will be filled with deus ex bullshit. Oh well.
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Apr 10, 2016 00:07
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Apparently the original idea was for them to be spy novels, with the first book of thieving basically being the backstory. I still really enjoyed the first two. And to be fair the third was written mid breakdown and it was still head and shoulders above the 'battlecruisers are lightly armoured and their officers are hotheaded' books that get tossed around so much.
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Apr 10, 2016 00:18
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flosofl posted:Didn't he have a breakdown recently too regarding the series and the pressure of the publisher deadlines? Or is that just some rumor floating around? I don't think he had a breakdown under pressure, dude just has to cope with nasty mental illness. Life events can definitely trigger episodes, but it's something that can come and go on its own logic, and there's no beating it by willpower or discipline.
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Apr 10, 2016 00:38
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idiotsavant posted:Even two books was a bad idea. He basically reused all the devices of the first book and it got really stale, really fast. He also wrote himself straight into a corner with the first book by giving them The World's Worst Near-Omnipotent Enemy and ensuring that every sequel will be filled with deus ex bullshit. Oh well. Well, uh, they would have offered the seven-book deal after Lies of Locke Lamora, so I don't know if, absent that, Red Seas Under Red Skies would look much at all like it did. Granted, I enjoyed it about as much as the first book.
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Apr 10, 2016 01:07
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I haven't hit diminishing returns with Lynch's stuff yet.
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Apr 10, 2016 01:22
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holocaust bloopers posted:I haven't hit diminishing returns with Lynch's stuff yet.
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Apr 10, 2016 01:33
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The former. Quality has dropped, but I'm still enjoying his work.
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Apr 10, 2016 01:36
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I thought the first two were good (by the standards of fantasy oceans 11), the third one, given its reviews, I have not read yet.
xian fucked around with this message at 04:58 on Apr 10, 2016 |
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Apr 10, 2016 04:55
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I liked the third a lot better than the second; I thought that was a relatively common opinion, or at least it was not long after the third book came out.
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Apr 10, 2016 05:31
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The second book is a bit jarring. It's as if Lynch snuck in the book he really wanted to--a pirate story--and then got around to telling a Lamora tale.
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Apr 10, 2016 05:41
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Nearly finished Pushing Ice. The interpersonal drama is a bit tedious, but everything to do with Janus, the Structure, the various aliens, etc, is absolutely fascinating. What other books are there that deal really well with that "gently caress me, we're heading into some REALLY alien poo poo right now" feeling? Like when the Musk Dogs show up, or when Bella finds out exactly how long they've been away from Earth. Moments like that just gave me a really heart clenching feeling of "We're not in Kansas anymore". I think this books captured that feeling even better than Reynolds' Revelation Space stuff. It's similar also to Blindsight and the Shrike/Tombs stuff of Hyperion, I guess. I just want to feel that dread of the truly alien and unknown being right around the corner. Unto Leviathan/Ship of Fools came close but didn't scratch the itch. (NB: It doesn't have to be space horror)
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Apr 10, 2016 14:11
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Hedrigall posted:Nearly finished Pushing Ice. The interpersonal drama is a bit tedious, but everything to do with Janus, the Structure, the various aliens, etc, is absolutely fascinating. What other books are there that deal really well with that "gently caress me, we're heading into some REALLY alien poo poo right now" feeling? Like when the Musk Dogs show up, or when Bella finds out exactly how long they've been away from Earth. Moments like that just gave me a really heart clenching feeling of "We're not in Kansas anymore". I haven't read *all*the*SF*things* but I've read Pushing Ice, and loved it. But if you're looking into some extremely alien form of.... uh.... aliens, I think Stephen Baxter has what you want. Kind of beings that you cannot really fathom as long as you are "conceiled" into the old conception of carbon based life. The Xeelee are already pretty sophisticated fellas (they like living inside event horizons) but man, the Quagmites? They are pretty loving hilarious to grasp. Kind of beings that you cannot even imagine or at least, how do you imagine a bunch of micro-mutli-dimensional-dudes older than the universe that are feeding themselves off the quagma broth and GUT drives trails??!! 
froody guy fucked around with this message at 15:26 on Apr 10, 2016 |
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Apr 10, 2016 15:22
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I just finished The folding knife and for the most part I really enjoyed it, but that ending! It was a solid punch in the dick out of nowhere. Obviously the first scene hints that things don't end well, but after the crises with the fleet and the forest both turned out well I was sure it had been some kind of fake out to keep you wondering - maybe he gave his knife away or was stolen etc. and that's who we see at the start. His own wife being some kind of perfect actress and mastermind just so she could ruin everything at the end just felt tacked on, like his publisher insisted on a twist ending at the last moment. Even the stuff in the letters about sides didn't really explain it; you can absolutely come to the conclusion that your country, friends, or even your family are terrible and cease all support for them. And even if you can't give up on nationalism, the idea that you'd prefer to kill half your nation with the plague just to preserve their status as constantly-warring dirt farmers who live in grinding poverty and hopelessness for a few more years (remember the entire point of Basso's empire was that otherwise the Eastern empire was going to conquer the area in a few years anyway) is bizarre. Or maybe the idea was just to show that some people are loving idiots, I don't know.
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Apr 10, 2016 16:03
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froody guy posted:I haven't read *all*the*SF*things* but I've read Pushing Ice, and loved it. But if you're looking into some extremely alien form of.... uh.... aliens, I think Stephen Baxter has what you want. Kind of beings that you cannot really fathom as long as you are "conceiled" into the old conception of carbon based life. The Xeelee are already pretty sophisticated fellas (they like living inside event horizons) but man, the Quagmites? They are pretty loving hilarious to grasp. Kind of beings that you cannot even imagine or at least, how do you imagine a bunch of micro-mutli-dimensional-dudes older than the universe that are feeding themselves off the quagma broth and GUT drives trails??!! I read the spoilers because I don't really care, and that sounds awesome. I love crazy poo poo like that and might have to check it out.
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Apr 10, 2016 20:44
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Darkrenown posted:I just finished The folding knife and for the most part I really enjoyed it, but Yeah, it didn't seem reasonable to me that a person would have both the capability and motivation to act like that. The ending made me dislike the book as a whole.
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Apr 11, 2016 03:55
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Finally started reading Traitor Baru. Enjoying the poo poo out of it so far, although it feels like the Masquerade is if anything a bit too easy to hate.holocaust bloopers posted:The second book is a bit jarring. It's as if Lynch snuck in the book he really wanted to--a pirate story--and then got around to telling a Lamora tale. As I think I've mentioned earlier, it feels like Red Seas really wanted to be two different books -- Locke & Jean's Pirate Adventure on the High Seas and Locke & Jean Rob The Most Secure loving Casino In The World -- that for some reason ended up as two half-books awkwardly smashed together. :/
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Apr 11, 2016 17:11
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If anyone is on the fence about getting into the Caverns and Creatures series by Robert Bevan (a god damned hilarious series about a group of assholes locked into a DnD game), the collection minus the short stories is on sale for the next couple of days at 99 cents. http://www.amazon.com/Caverns-Creatures-Books-Robert-Bevan-ebook/dp/B01BK7D738
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Apr 11, 2016 21:15
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Stupid_Sexy_Flander posted:(a god damned hilarious series about a group of assholes locked into a DnD game) I am enough of a dork that this instantly put it on my 'want to read' list 
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Apr 11, 2016 21:43
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I love the series (and have already bought the books before), so give em a whirl. Hell, if it sucks, it's only a buck. It's... it's a unique series. It's got everything from dick jokes to your mom jokes to horrible puns about names and races. It's not high literature by any stretch of the imagination, but it's a great read.
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Apr 11, 2016 22:09
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So it's basically a webcomic in written form?
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Apr 12, 2016 17:49
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Nakar posted:Also if you want to see Herbert do Asimov, read Destination: Void, which is pretty good. If you then want your fix of Frank Herbert veering into insanity, read its sequel The Jesus Incident. Dune might easily be the least bonkers thing that Herbert ever wrote Neurosis posted:The second big problem I have is how uninteresting the Culture seem to be compared to some other advanced societies I've read of in sci fi - the zoku and Sobornost, the Golden Oecumene, the Schismatrix, the Diaspora, in contrast, pursue extremely interesting artistic ideas which I could see rewarding even superhuman intellects - okay, these guys are physically powerful, but the ideas coming through the book aren't terribly interesting, and the humans just seem like infantile 20th century types, provided with anything they want. Utopias aren't really interesting - all of the Culture novels take place at the edges of the Culture or with their interactions with other civs. Think about Gurgeh at the beginning of the book, all of his biggest concerns are essentially minor and most Culture citizens' "problems" are going to be equally tedious. Which sounds like a fine way to live, to me, but I don't much want to read about it. Grimson fucked around with this message at 18:23 on Apr 12, 2016 |
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Apr 12, 2016 18:15
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The Culture is a fascinating setting exactly because it's not ambitiously post-human. It posits a society of recognizable people who've received everything we want: incorruptible government, unlimited self-actualization, no scarcity or need for labor, and perfect agency over your own body and mind. Then it asks: is this utopia or dystopia? Heaven or decay? Is the Culture a force for good or a borderline nihilistic gang of hedonists poking around and interfering in a desperate search for meaning? All the great Culture stories are about the interface between the Culture and other values. If they're so awesome why do they need Zakalwe? Why did they gently caress up the Chelgrian intervention? What do they do about the existence of Literal Hell? It helps that Banks is a great craftsman capable of amazing set pieces and galvanic plot twists (if not always very good structure).
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Apr 12, 2016 19:24
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If you live in the Culture, you can either base your life around freaking out for the next pumpkin spice latte season, choose to become one of the weirdos that do risky stunts without backups and AI support or join the SC. Which trains you to become a ruthless killer and not at all a good Culture citizen.
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Apr 12, 2016 19:53
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mcustic posted:If you live in the Culture, you can either base your life around freaking out for the next pumpkin spice latte season, choose to become one of the weirdos that do risky stunts without backups and AI support or join the SC. Which trains you to become a ruthless killer and not at all a good Culture citizen. Or join Contact. Or live on a GCV and tour the galaxy. Or become an Orbital defense militia member. Or run your own shop or place or whatever. The whole point was virtually limitless freedom within reason, and when I was reading the books I thought despite the supposed critique of the rest of the galactic community it was crystal clear that this never meant total vapidity. I can't remember where I read it but I distinctly remember Banks saying in an interview that he wanted to write a kind of soap opera melodrama set entirely in The Culture — a high society potboiler but with knife missiles — and I think there's actually plenty of room for stories set exclusively inside post-scarcity societies. Screwball and satirical comedic dramas in the almost scarcity-less upper aristocracy like Vanity Fair or Pride & Prejudice are classics, and Cory Doctorow's and Rudy Rucker's works set in those environments proved to be really interesting. I really wish he could have lived to write something in that vein.  But as General Battuta points out, The Culture always shone brightest when put into contrast with other societies and its interactions with them, and Banks seems to have ultimately been most comfortable writing about events on an almost incomprehensible scale. It's obvious he had other Culture stories he preferred to tell instead. Combed Thunderclap fucked around with this message at 20:28 on Apr 12, 2016 |
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Apr 12, 2016 20:25
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He did do one extremely hosed up within-the-Culture soap opera story, but it's done within Excession, which is also where the Culture meets probably its most radically alien challenge.
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Apr 12, 2016 21:32
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