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hakimashou posted:Yeah, way way way way way better. So, it's a crime against decency to cheerlead palestinian violence. It's always doomed to fail, they're always worse off after than they were before, its a fight they can't win and therefore must not engage in. Cheerleading Israeli violence, however, is cool and good, right?
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Apr 8, 2016 00:22
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Cat Mattress posted:Cheerleading Israeli violence, however, is cool and good, right? Well, by the standard I used before, it is at least consistent and not self-defeating and indefensible. Bear in mind, I mean cheerleading Palestinian jihad because you support the Palestinian cause is indefensible because palestinian jihad causes great harm to the Palestinians. It's indefensible because it is self-defeating, it harms the aims its meant to advance. The same isn't at all true for Israel. Israel will win conflicts with Gaza. A person whose only concern is the well-being of Israelis would not be thinking irrationally if he supported the use of force against the Palestinians.
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Apr 8, 2016 02:17
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hakimashou posted:Well, by the standard I used before, it is at least consistent and not self-defeating and indefensible. No, by your standard it is inconsistent and self-defeating to support Israeli violence. The fact that Israeli will "win" any conflict with Hamas does not preclude them from incurring more harm to Israel than had they not engaged in violence.  Did Israeli aggression lead to fewer or more rocket attacks? Is Israeli less terrorized or more terrorized than it was before? The only way your position is consistent is if you acknowledge that Palestinian violence does not materially affect Israel. Which would imply any Palestinian action that provokes Israel, violent or not, is indefensible. Is the PA seeking redress in the ICC similarly indefensible because it resulted in Israel freezing tax payments? Why don't you drop the realpolitik gibberish and just come out and say that you don't support the Palestinian's right to exist.
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Apr 8, 2016 03:33
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hakimashou posted:You narrowed it down! Nope, not going to take the bait. I just wanted make it clear that you're a poor liar. If this were 1944 I suppose you would have been wagging your finger after the Warsaw uprising. Silly Poles should have known better, right?
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Apr 8, 2016 04:31
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ANIME AKBAR posted:Oh come on, you have to wait more than two years before you can tell such a huge lie and expect to not get called on it. On june 30th, Hamas fired its first rocket since 2012, in response to Israeli airstrikes which killed a Hamas member. No honest, clear-headed observer could come to the conclusion that Hamas instigated protective edge. Or brother's keeper, for that matter. The kidnappings were done by a Hamas member and planned by a rogue faction, albeit acting independently of leadership. It was not full scale Protective Edge until Hamas proper started strikes in early July in an effort to ratchet up pressure, before then it was just tit for tat.
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Apr 8, 2016 05:55
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hakimashou posted:Well, by the standard I used before, it is at least consistent and not self-defeating and indefensible. You do realize that the Israelis are human beings that can change their behavior as well, right? They're not some force of nature. If you can spend effort telling Palestinians to not resist Israeli occupation, you can also spend effort telling Israel not to kill thousands of civilians and destroy their vital infrastructure. The way Palestinians are reacting to their occupation is pretty normal (even if it isn't always optimal), so trying to criticize their behavior isn't any more reasonable (or likely to have any impact) than criticizing Israel's. Both parties are humans capable of making their own decisions, but it turns out that Israel is the party killing way more people. So basically the question is: given that neither Israel nor Palestinians are likely to change their behavior because of what you say, why in the world do you focus solely on Palestinian behavior? You also honestly seem to not understand the difference between "is" and "ought." To use an extreme (but accurate) analogy, it's like someone focusing on how armed resistance against Nazis in Eastern Europe/Russia was unwise because it could provoke retaliation against a person's family and community. Yeah, that's true, but what kind of rear end in a top hat would spend his time and effort talking about how the victims of a conflict aren't acting ideally to minimize their own suffering? The correct response to a situation where a powerful aggressor is loving over a less powerful victim isn't to nitpick whether the victim is acting ideally to minimize how much the aggressor fucks him over. The aggressor can also change his/her behavior.
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Apr 8, 2016 06:01
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All deaths that occurred in the invasion of Poland are morally the fault of the Poles and the Poles alone, because if Poland had surrendered immediately no one would have had to die. E: The USA is responsible for Pearl Harbor because Roosevelt could have ceded Southeast Asia to Japan and paid them oil tribute E2: hakimashou posted:i am arguing that i personally am too stupid to know who was behind 9/11 Oh okay I figured, thanks for clearing that up. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 08:47 on Apr 8, 2016 |
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Apr 8, 2016 08:33
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The hilarious thing is Oren stepped in to remind everyone that Israel slaughtered 2,000 civilians and wounded 10,000. Kind of making Sanders' point for him.
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Apr 8, 2016 11:50
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Kim Jong Il posted:The kidnappings were done by a Hamas member and planned by a rogue faction, albeit acting independently of leadership. quote:It was not full scale Protective Edge until Hamas proper started strikes in early July quote:in an effort to ratchet up pressure, before then it was just tit for tat. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cZSS8eP3l4
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Apr 8, 2016 12:39
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Kim Jong Il posted:The kidnappings were done by a Hamas member and planned by a rogue faction, albeit acting independently of leadership. It was not full scale Protective Edge until Hamas proper started strikes in early July in an effort to ratchet up pressure, before then it was just tit for tat. What about the IDF raids, airstrikes and mass arrests that preceded those rocket strikes? I guess those were just little tits for the tat of a kidnapping that occurred in the West Bank?
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Apr 8, 2016 13:02
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Slight comic relief, one of Israel's most prominent fascists one Yoav "The Shadow" Eliassi posted the following on his facebook page:  tl;dr: An IDF Soldier is helping a palestinian exchange a flat tire, this proves Breaking The Silence are lying traitors and that the IDF is the most moral army in the world. In response Tal Herman, the soldier in the photo posted the following:  tl;dr: What's up shady? Just FYI, I'm the soldier in the photograph and I support BTS, BTS have never claimed that IDF soldiers are immoral monsters, if you actually took the time to read what they have to say you might have known that. Then Eliassi started mouthing off and calling him a leftist traitor yada yada yada, now the soldier says he's started receiving violent threats in his inbox, demonstrating once again that soldiers are only considered heros as long they voice the correct opinions.
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Apr 8, 2016 13:58
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Smotrich has been a on roll today, seems like he's unwilling to give up in this particular race to the bottom and he's really firing on all cylinders: The two of them are refusing to give in on this, doubling down harder and harder on the bad decision. His wife has released an incredibly whiny statement where, among other things, she accuses her critics of violating her democratic right to hold whatever opinion she pleases, calls right-wing journalists cowards for not supporting her, talks about how hard she's sacrificing herself for the sake of Israel by living in a settlement and having to put up with the uppity Arabs protesting nearby, and claims that it's inaccurate to compare her husband to a Nazi because Jews never resisted German occupation the way that Palestinians have against Israeli occupation. And, just in case it was unclear, she's declared that she's sticking by her original words and won't retract them or apologize for them. This is the gift that's going to keep on giving. Speaking of gifts, the PA and IDF are currently in talks about possibly withdrawing the IDF presence from parts of Area A, the offer apparently being made in response to the terror wave that's been going for some months now, as well as PA threats to end the security cooperation. I wouldn't get my hopes up too much, since much of the Israeli government was unaware of these secret talks until recently and are making disgruntled noises about the whole thing now that they know, but it's a sign that the security establishment, at least, is scared enough that it's willing to make major concessions.
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Apr 8, 2016 14:45
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Oy vey http://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/199362/stanford-student-senator-saying-jews-control-the-media-economy-government-is-not-anti-semitism quote:Objecting to the resolution’s language, student senator Gabriel Knight asserted that saying “Jews control the media, economy [and] government” is “not anti-Semitism.” Therefore, he argued, such wording should be stricken from the resolution’s characterization of anti-Jewish prejudice. Knight’s full statement was captured in an audio recording of the proceedings, obtained by Tablet:
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Apr 8, 2016 21:07
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Goddamn it Gabe. Three games worth of character development wasted, and you're back to being a douchebag. Grace really should have left you to die.
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Apr 8, 2016 21:18
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Yowza that statement deserves a boycott divestment or sanction.
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Apr 8, 2016 23:02
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Slight comic relief, one of Israel's most prominent fascists one Yoav "The Shadow" Eliassi posted the following on his facebook page: I think the story about Israeli politics right now is less a wide scale turn to the right, and more political empowerment of the Mizrahim who literally hate Muslims due to being ethnically cleansed by them in the past century.
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Apr 9, 2016 16:03
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Kim Jong Il posted:I think the story about Israeli politics right now is less a wide scale turn to the right, and more political empowerment of the Mizrahim who literally hate Muslims due to being ethnically cleansed by them in the past century. Being that there are plenty of Muslims in Israel shouldn't we be conserned that these empowered Mizrahim if they do hate them as you claim would take actions beyond what already is taking place against them?
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Apr 9, 2016 16:56
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I don't think Mizrahim have some collective memory of their exodus, at least I don't for what it's worth, nor do I truly believe that Mizrahim hate arabs more virulently than any other Jewish ethnicity anymore at least not by a wide margin. It's possible that there's a more significant proportion of leftists among Ashkenazim but that could easily be attributed to socio-economics rather than some culturally ingrained historical events. Eliassi is just a huge rear end in a top hat whose rise to relevance is in itself an indication of the decline of the importance of democratic values to many Israeli Jews. He's a loudmouthed fascist idiot who basically goes "support are troops", "kill arabs" and "leftists are traitors" all day long and obviously this resonates with a significant portion of the population who believe that Israel is in on the front of a clash of civilizations against the barbaric hordes and that everyone who criticizes Israel is necessarily a quisling and a traitor, a society on the verge of full blown fascism and the such.
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Apr 9, 2016 21:00
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emanresu tnuocca posted:I don't think Mizrahim have some collective memory of their exodus, at least I don't for what it's worth, nor do I truly believe that Mizrahim hate arabs more virulently than any other Jewish ethnicity anymore at least not by a wide margin. It's possible that there's a more significant proportion of leftists among Ashkenazim but that could easily be attributed to socio-economics rather than some culturally ingrained historical events. Considering that "Mizrahi" encompasses Jews from something like twenty countries who immigrated over the course of several decades under wildly varying circumstances, I'd be hesitant to point to a "collective memory" of anything shared between all Mizrahi. However, there are plenty of overall demographic differences between Mizrahi and Ashkenazi, who are far more different from any Mizrahi group than the various Mizrahi groups are from each other.
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Apr 9, 2016 22:19
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Kim Jong Il posted:I think the story about Israeli politics right now is less a wide scale turn to the right, and more political empowerment of the Mizrahim who literally hate Muslims due to being ethnically cleansed by them in the past century. Except all the data point to the opposite, unless you are claiming mizrahim are about 65% of the population? I also have a problem with someone saying 'savage minority have a problem with another savage minority that's kinda justified because of x'.
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Apr 9, 2016 22:46
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Hong XiuQuan posted:Except all the data point to the opposite, unless you are claiming mizrahim are about 65% of the population? Except you're 100% wrong. http://972mag.com/why-mizrahis-dont-vote-for-the-left/101769/
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Apr 10, 2016 02:32
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Kim Jong Il posted:Except you're 100% wrong. Okay, so the Mizrahi lean right because quote:Mizrahim have adopted vehement Zionist-nationalist positions, after they were made to renounce their Arab culture by successive Israeli governments.
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Apr 10, 2016 02:58
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I didn't endorse all of the content of the article, it just gives the voting crosstabs from a source that he'd accept.
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Apr 10, 2016 04:21
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Mizrahim not voting for the so-called-left is not an indication of their disproportionate hatred towards muslim arabs, for starters, many Israelis don't vote for the left, to add to that the historical division line between Mapai and Herut where Begin was the first to use rhetoric pandering to Mizrahim and Mapai was perceived as a sectorial party pandering mostly to the ashkenazi elites. Really the only proper leftist zionist party is Merez who as we all know represent something like 3% of the electorate, so it's not as though Mizrahim alone don't vote for the left. Again we're looking at the long term socio-economic effects of the demographic divide not at any cultural residues, Likud panders to the lower socioeconomic classes with its race baiting and by claiming that it is against the predominantly ashkenazi mapai old guard. It's less about the exodus and more about the maabarot really.
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Apr 10, 2016 09:08
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Btw can anyone explain the natural gas legal problems happening?
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Apr 10, 2016 10:21
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Somebody fucked around with this message at 03:34 on Nov 28, 2023 |
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Apr 10, 2016 11:17
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Kim Jong Il posted:Except you're 100% wrong. Remember your original claim about it being less about Israeli shift to the right and more about Mizrahim being right-wing? When 65% of Israelis think that a soldier who executed a wounded man 'did nothing wrong' it would suggest to me that there has been a massive shift to the right in Israel. Whether with Mizrahim or Ashkenazim. The fact that Mizrahim may be a little more to the right of an already far-right spectrum is meaningless. When heads of 'leftist' parties are espousing ideas that would have been considered practically Kahanist in the 1990s then you can't just point to Mizrahim and say 'well, Muslims' fault for kicking them out I guess'.
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Apr 10, 2016 11:31
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Crowsbeak posted:Btw can anyone explain the natural gas legal problems happening? It really depends who you ask, there's too much legal mumbo-jumbo going around for anyone who's not an expert in this field to truly know what's going on imo. My biased, partial and superficial understanding is as following: Bibi's administration has signed ridiculous contracts with Nobel Energy, Delek and Itzhak Tshuva guaranteeing them that Israel will pay over 5$ per heat unit for gas excavated from the off shore gas deposits, there were several other controversial aspects of the contracts as well two major ones were that the Gas conglomerate was not supposed to export any natural gas before it developed the Leviathan gas field which it never did yet the Bibi administration wanted to let them sell it anyway, the other controversial aspect was the 'Stability Clause' in the contract which was struck down by the supreme court, basically this clause guaranteed to the conglomerate that the Israeli government and knesset will be forbidden for making any significant regulatory concerning the gas, this was struck by the supreme court as the government has no authority of making such long term guarantees in the name of future governments so the court decreed it must be passed as legislation by the Knesset. Along the way there were very many odd things which really made the whole thing appear as though Bibi is working for the conglomerate and not for the Israeli citizenry, for instance the Israeli Antitrust Commissioner refused to authorize the gas contract so Bibi evoked the 'state of emergency' clause which allows the government to basically do whatever the gently caress it wants to as long as it claims there's a national security imperative, there was also a farce when Arie Deri resigned as Minister of the Economy as he refused to authorize the deal, after he resigned Bibi automatically became the Economy minister and authorized the contract. It's just all very shady. Of course if you ask right wingers and libertarians everything I just said is pure fiction and everything Bibi and the conglomerate have done was clean as a whistle and now they're getting hounded by the self-hating socialist leftists bla bla bla.
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Apr 10, 2016 12:58
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emanresu tnuocca posted:It really depends who you ask, there's too much legal mumbo-jumbo going around for anyone who's not an expert in this field to truly know what's going on imo. Wow, that reads like Bibi doing his dandiest to bankrupt Israel. Why should Israel pay for its gas? Shouldn't this be the other way around?
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Apr 10, 2016 15:36
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Hong XiuQuan posted:Remember your original claim about it being less about Israeli shift to the right and more about Mizrahim being right-wing? You're missing the point. Hamas is wrong for targeting civilians in the past. Would you say then that it's not a good idea to look at the reasons why they're angry? There's a reason Hebron is a lot shittier to live in than Ramallah: it's deliberate, as a punitive response to the 1929 pogrom and ethnic cleansing. That doesn't excuse the conduct, but it explains it.
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Apr 10, 2016 16:50
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Hong XiuQuan posted:Remember your original claim about it being less about Israeli shift to the right and more about Mizrahim being right-wing? It's interesting to contrast with the Bus 300 affair, for sure. But a lot of things have shifted in the Israeli public perception. For example, just over half of Israelis think the security situation now is worse than it was during the Second Intifada, and an Arab MK who suggested that attacks against uniformed on-duty soldiers shouldn't be considered terrorism and compared it to Lehi and Irgun is being shouted down for "legitimizing terror against Israeli civilians, wearing their military uniform".
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Apr 10, 2016 17:29
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Crowsbeak posted:Wow, that reads like Bibi doing his dandiest to bankrupt Israel. Why should Israel pay for its gas? Shouldn't this be the other way around? Only historians 50 years from now who'll have access to declassified documents will know whether Bibi was truly trying to sell us out or whether he was deluded enough to believe his own bullshit, personally I actually lean towards the latter and think that Bibi is a true believer in trickle-down economics and other such nonsense. He's also a true believer in the clash of civilizations narrative which is probably a far bigger and more immediate problem.
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Apr 10, 2016 17:35
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Only historians 50 years from now who'll have access to declassified documents will know whether Bibi was truly trying to sell us out or whether he was deluded enough to believe his own bullshit, personally I actually lean towards the latter and think that Bibi is a true believer in trickle-down economics and other such nonsense. I keep having this rather dark thought in my head that 50 years form now there will be barley any Palestinians in Israel. Israel will be this North Korean style Theocracy and there will be some sort of Jordanian lead Arab state financed by Iran waiting to march into Israel the moment that chaos finally takes hold.
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Apr 10, 2016 17:43
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Xandu posted:Oy vey Kind of a no-brainer why that's objectionable, but the broader point of the article is that while utterly blatant acts of antisemitism are (sometimes) declaimed by campus organizations there's a willful blindness towards antisemitism in general and anti-Zionism masquerading in antisemitism in particular, like the same Oberlin student body that found sushi in the cafeteria 'problematic' not having much of a problem with a professor who accused Jews of stealing organs.
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Apr 11, 2016 08:29
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The Insect Court posted:Kind of a no-brainer why that's objectionable, but the broader point of the article is that while utterly blatant acts of antisemitism are (sometimes) declaimed by campus organizations there's a willful blindness towards antisemitism in general and anti-Zionism masquerading in antisemitism in particular, like the same Oberlin student body that found sushi in the cafeteria 'problematic' not having much of a problem with a professor who accused Jews of stealing organs. You linked a story about Joy Karega, not Jasbir Puar as you probably intended (though she teaches at Rutgers, not Oberlin). Also, the unauthorized harvesting of organs was not done randomly by "Jews" (no individual Jewish person is responsible for the actions of any other Jewish person or people simply because of their shared Jewishness--to make such a claim is blatant anti-semitism) but at the direction of a single person, Yehuda Hiss, who harvested organs from Jews and Arabs, Israelis and Palestinians alike.
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Apr 11, 2016 09:20
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The Insect Court posted:Kind of a no-brainer why that's objectionable, but the broader point of the article is that while utterly blatant acts of antisemitism are (sometimes) declaimed by campus organizations there's a willful blindness towards antisemitism in general and anti-Zionism masquerading in antisemitism in particular, like the same Oberlin student body that found sushi in the cafeteria 'problematic' not having much of a problem with a professor who accused Jews of stealing organs. It is said that the best way to discredit something is to argue for it badly. By ypur own logic, antizionism = antisemitism, you are the moral equivalent of a Nazi, get the gently caress out.
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Apr 11, 2016 10:18
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The Insect Court posted:Kind of a no-brainer why that's objectionable, but the broader point of the article is that while utterly blatant acts of antisemitism are (sometimes) declaimed by campus organizations there's a willful blindness towards antisemitism in general and anti-Zionism masquerading in antisemitism in particular, like the same Oberlin student body that found sushi in the cafeteria 'problematic' not having much of a problem with a professor who accused Jews of stealing organs. captainblastum posted:Are you ever going to address the questions that people have asked you repeatedly?
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Apr 11, 2016 11:13
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eSports Chaebol posted:You linked a story about Joy Karega, not Jasbir Puar as you probably intended (though she teaches at Rutgers, not Oberlin). Also, the unauthorized harvesting of organs was not done randomly by "Jews" (no individual Jewish person is responsible for the actions of any other Jewish person or people simply because of their shared Jewishness--to make such a claim is blatant anti-semitism) but at the direction of a single person, Yehuda Hiss, who harvested organs from Jews and Arabs, Israelis and Palestinians alike. Whenever you accuse one person in particular, who happens to be Jewish, of having committed a crime, you are implicitly accusing all Jews of committing crimes, and therefore are antisemitic. The only way of not being antisemitic is of conferring to all Jews a blanket immunity against any and all accusations. The same standard, of course, cannot be extended to Palestinians, obviously. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 11, 2016 12:25
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The Insect Court posted:Kind of a no-brainer why that's objectionable, but the broader point of the article is that while utterly blatant acts of antisemitism are (sometimes) declaimed by campus organizations there's a willful blindness towards antisemitism in general and anti-Zionism masquerading in antisemitism in particular, like the same Oberlin student body that found sushi in the cafeteria 'problematic' not having much of a problem with a professor who accused Jews of stealing organs. There's a perceived blindness, yes...but the people who perceive that blindness may simply be blind to other forms of racism besides anti-Semitism that go equally unaddressed. After all, the relationship between anti-anti-Semitism activists and general anti-racism activists has often been thorny, mostly due to the frequent reluctance of the anti-anti-Semitism activists to support any other anti-racism movement. While pro-Jewish activists often worked with the civil rights movements in the earlier parts of the century, they've broken with the general movements in recent decades on issues like affirmative action, and the current Zionist trend is to reject the idea that anyone besides Jews face oppression. Stay classy, warriors against anti-Semitism, the uniquest hatred that cannot be compared to mere racism! quote:It was a night Mayor Setti Warren planned to talk about prejudice in his community and how to move forward in the wake of incidents of anti-Semitism and racism in the city’s schools over the past several months. Main Paineframe fucked around with this message at 15:04 on Apr 11, 2016 |
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Apr 11, 2016 15:01
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http://www.timesofisrael.com/barghouti-plans-nonviolent-bid-to-free-west-bank-east-jerusalem/ Barghouti has reached an understanding with leadership from Hamas, Islamic Jihad. Plans for a rejection of Oslo and a nonviolent people's revolution.
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Apr 11, 2016 19:07
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