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Friendly Humour posted:Well if you think about it, it's the logical conclusion of multicultarist championing of difference. That's because mono-culturalism and multi-culturalism are very similiar in what they politically entail. Both suggest segregation but with different goals in mind. One is "we should only have one culture period" and the other is "we have multiple cultures but steps must be taken to restrict intermingling". Think Canada and parents rights in Quebec for instance. In fact, the only nations that are dedicated to multi-culturalism as defined in academia at the moment is Canada and the UK. Almost all other western nations (with some notable exceptions in the US and Scandinavia) are melting pots of varying degrees. Nationalist parties are pretty much exclusively mono-cultural in their proposed policies. MiddleOne fucked around with this message at 09:29 on Apr 11, 2016 |
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Apr 11, 2016 09:26
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Xoidanor posted:That's because mono-culturalism and multi-culturalism are very similiar in what they politically entail. Both suggest segregation but with different goals in mind. One is "we should only have one culture period" and the other is "we have multiple cultures but steps must be taken to restrict intermingling". Think Canada and parents rights in Quebec for instance. In fact, the only nations that are dedicated to multi-culturalism as defined in academia at the moment is Canada and the UK. Almost all other western nations (with some notable exceptions in the US and Scandinavia) are melting pots of varying degrees. Nationalist parties are pretty much exclusively mono-cultural in their proposed policies. I don't think that's exactly true nowadays, although historically it used to be. Many nationalistic parties in Europe today, notably Marine le Pen's FN, seem to me to be pursuing a policy 'leading culture' which acknowledges the existence of different cultures inside society, but demands that they adhere to the values and lifestyles of (what they perceive to be) the 'leading' traditional culture. Which I think is actually a rather reasonable policy, although I violently disagree with what the far-right define as constituting the leading culture.
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Apr 11, 2016 10:08
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The Sweden Democrats have seen some of their main goals fulfilled already, or at least those that many of their prospective voters deem important. For example, immigration has been dramatically halted and the general discourse in the media and society regarding immigration and Islam is a lot more critical and harsh than only a year ago. The narrative has shifted basically, and since SD profiled themselves as "the lone voice of reason" they lost much of their appeal once the more tested parties adopted some of their rhetoric, considering that people would rather not vote for buffoons if they have an option. This does not mean that they're going anywhere, they still have gained a sort of "default party" position in a lot of places, and as said their rhetoric has gained influence. The party isn't growing but what it represents still is. edit: Oh and we also have nazis patrolling the streets, like for real, and Islamic schools are being torched. Fox Cunning fucked around with this message at 10:20 on Apr 11, 2016 |
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Apr 11, 2016 10:18
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Friendly Humour posted:I don't think that's exactly true nowadays, although historically it used to be. Many nationalistic parties in Europe today, notably Marine le Pen's FN, seem to me to be pursuing a policy 'leading culture' which acknowledges the existence of different cultures inside society, but demands that they adhere to the values and lifestyles of (what they perceive to be) the 'leading' traditional culture. Which I think is actually a rather reasonable policy, although I violently disagree with what the far-right define as constituting the leading culture. That's what mono-culturalism is when applied lightly.
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Apr 11, 2016 14:57
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For a culture to even be considered as 'leading', it'd have to be strong enough to present itself as such. As in have its own distinct art, language if possible, rituals, ceremonies, ethics and so on and hopefully define them as clearly as possible so as to deliver a consistent message. And then actually deliver said message regularly. Basically, it has to be something no culture is right now in the western world, nor that it aspires towards in any way either considering it's undergoing a dillution what with stuff like the internet and so on. So it's not too surprising to see other cultures come in and not integrate at all or even actively resist integrating on such basic issues like how women should dress - because they don't find anything in our 'leading' culture (whichever the gently caress it's supposed to be anyway - we can't even agree on that) that is consistent or worthy of respect. Still, I don't see another realistic option for longer-term peace other than to work on that. Because the alternative of multi means ghettos and segregated societies and misery, both for them and for those that won't be a part of it. The US very much so demonstrated that, with its poorer slum regions, and most of those didn't even have a joint religious background.
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Apr 11, 2016 16:49
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CrazyLoon posted:For a culture to even be considered as 'leading', it'd have to be strong enough to present itself as such. As in have its own distinct art, language if possible, rituals, ceremonies, ethics and so on and hopefully define them as clearly as possible so as to deliver a consistent message. And then actually deliver said message regularly. Uhhuh, and why is that? Culture is an organic construct, it doesn't submit itself to definitions of what it is, only what it is not.
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Apr 11, 2016 16:56
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Friendly Humour posted:Uhhuh, and why is that? Culture is an organic construct, it doesn't submit itself to definitions of what it is, only what it is not. In theory perhaps. But definitely not in practice. A lot can be said about what a certain culture is about simply by observing its everyday life. It's just that it keeps evolving with time.
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Apr 11, 2016 16:58
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CrazyLoon posted:In theory perhaps. But definitely not in practice. A lot can be said about what a certain culture is about simply by observing its everyday life. It's just that it keeps evolving with time. Well go on then, give us a practical example of a culture that cannot be defined by what it is not, but what it is.
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Apr 11, 2016 17:02
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CrazyLoon posted:For a culture to even be considered as 'leading', it'd have to be strong enough to present itself as such. As in have its own distinct art, language if possible, rituals, ceremonies, ethics and so on and hopefully define them as clearly as possible so as to deliver a consistent message. And then actually deliver said message regularly. European countries don't have distinct art, languages, rituals and ceremonies (you mean "religion"), and ethics? What the gently caress are you talking about? Europe is the most culturally diverse region on the planet. Not only the most diverse, but also the most advanced. Europe is the best, literally in every sense that matters (economic development, availibility of modern technology, civil rights, safety, environment, health care, education and so on). If you think this in itself isn't "worthy of respect" then I wonder what is.
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Apr 11, 2016 17:02
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OhYeah posted:European countries don't have distinct art, languages, rituals and ceremonies (you mean "religion"), and ethics? A consistent message that brings unity. It is not found anywhere in the west, precisely because of said 'cultural diversity.'
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Apr 11, 2016 17:05
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What 'message' are you talking about anyway?
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Apr 11, 2016 17:06
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"Melting pot" comes from an American play about the necessity of abandoning Jewishness to be American. It's also pretty lovely as a play. If America was a melting pot, Home Depot wouldn't have signs in eight languages, there wouldn't be ramen in every grocery, and nobody would celebrate Tet. I'm extremely glad we aren't.
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Apr 11, 2016 17:07
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CrazyLoon posted:A consistent message that brings unity. It is not found anywhere in the west, precisely because of said 'cultural diversity.' Could we get that argument in English instead of meaningless platitudes?
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Apr 11, 2016 17:07
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CrazyLoon posted:A consistent message that brings unity. It is not found anywhere in the west, precisely because of said 'cultural diversity.' Our "message" is this: live and let live. Enjoy a high quality of living, exercise economic, social and religious freedoms to fulfill your dreams and live your life exactly like you want. Enjoy your education and our rich cultural history and become a better and more interesting person.
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Apr 11, 2016 17:08
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Xoidanor posted:Could we get that argument in English instead of meaningless platitudes? Not really. OhYeah is posting.
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Apr 11, 2016 17:09
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CrazyLoon posted:Not really. OhYeah is posting. 
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Apr 11, 2016 17:10
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CrazyLoon posted:Not really. OhYeah is posting. 
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Apr 11, 2016 17:12
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CrazyLoon posted:Not really. OhYeah is posting. Cool casual racism 
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Apr 11, 2016 18:46
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Managed to take some time off from bravely facing down the Soviet hordes I see punakone. Also that's hardly racism given a) Loon is Slovenian b) he's making fun of OhYeah only using vague, hollow statements instead of concrete proposals. Tesseraction fucked around with this message at 18:50 on Apr 11, 2016 |
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Apr 11, 2016 18:48
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Tesseraction posted:Managed to take some time off from bravely facing down the Soviet hordes I see punakone. Oh dear, I am sorry for any traumatic memories that might surface. Its just that kind of language towards eastern europeans sometimes seems to have a really racist under current, but in this case I 100% made a reach.
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Apr 11, 2016 18:53
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Traumatic? I'm making fun of you for when you leapt into this thread as soon as the Belgian terrorist attack occurred to complain about your guns while the bodies were still warm, citing the need to fight off the Russian menace. And yes, I'm well aware that making fun of someone's language ability can be used in a racially charged way, however in this case a southern Eastern European was making fun of a northern Eastern European for speaking in useless platitudes.
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Apr 11, 2016 19:06
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Tesseraction posted:Traumatic? I'm making fun of you for when you leapt into this thread as soon as the Belgian terrorist attack occurred to complain about your guns while the bodies were still warm, citing the need to fight off the Russian menace. Only because the blood on the floor didn't have time to cool before French politicians charged forth to change legalization that was basically finished and everyone was happy about in effort to ban scary looking murder machines that weren't connected to the terrorist attacks in any way. But it's irrelevant now, Finland got what they wanted and the guns aren't getting banned.
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Apr 11, 2016 19:28
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Puistokemisti posted:Only because the blood on the floor didn't have time to cool before French politicians charged forth to change legalization that was basically finished and everyone was happy about in effort to ban scary looking murder machines that weren't connected to the terrorist attacks in any way. Pretty much, except Netherlands is trying to make a compromise suggestion about this which would make everything banned again, but its not likely to pass
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Apr 11, 2016 19:39
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OhYeah posted:European countries don't have distinct art, languages, rituals and ceremonies (you mean "religion"), and ethics? Europe is decades behind the united states in a lot of things actually. For example I doubt we would be having the same imigration issues you people are having. Also racial issues, I haven't seen a European on here that doesn't hate gypsies.
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Apr 11, 2016 19:58
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Also what world do you live in that the United states is not considered multicultural?
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Apr 11, 2016 20:03
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drilldo squirt posted:Also racial issues, I haven't seen a European on here that doesn't hate gypsies. But, you see, it's in their nature.
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Apr 11, 2016 20:06
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drilldo squirt posted:Europe is decades behind the united states in a lot of things actually. For example I doubt we would be having the same imigration issues you people are having. Also racial issues, I haven't seen a European on here that doesn't hate gypsies. Only because you resolved your immigration crisis by turning migrant workers into illegal second class citizens and denied them access to all public institutions. Congratulations, I guess?
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Apr 11, 2016 20:26
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Friendly Humour posted:Only because you resolved your immigration crisis by turning migrant workers into illegal second class citizens and denied them access to all public institutions. Congratulations, I guess? I disagree with your assessment but in any case we don't lose refuge children en masse. Which seems to be an improvement over the European attempt.
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Apr 11, 2016 20:42
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Tesseraction posted:Also that's hardly racism given a) Loon is Slovenian b) he's making fun of OhYeah only using vague, hollow statements instead of concrete proposals. Concrete solutions for what? I wasn't arguing for anything, I was calling out CrazyLoon's insane argument that Europe doesn't have an identity or some kind of moral authority. drilldo squirt posted:Europe is decades behind the united states in a lot of things actually. For example I doubt we would be having the same imigration issues you people are having. Also racial issues, I haven't seen a European on here that doesn't hate gypsies. That's one way of looking at it. The other way is this: Europe is decades ahead of USA in regard to the immigration problem. PS. I'm not dissing USA, I wouldn't mind living there. USA #1!
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Apr 11, 2016 20:43
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Friendly Humour posted:Only because you resolved your immigration crisis by turning migrant workers into illegal second class citizens and denied them access to all public institutions. Congratulations, I guess? Considering the future reign of Trump congratulations are a bit premature. PS. I am dissing USA!
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Apr 11, 2016 20:46
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doverhog posted:Considering the future reign of Trump congratulations are a bit premature. Europeans poopooing america about facist strong men is incredibly ironic.
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Apr 11, 2016 20:48
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OhYeah posted:
I'm sorry buddy I don't see it.
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Apr 11, 2016 20:50
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drilldo squirt posted:I disagree with your assessment but in any case we don't lose refuge children en masse. Which seems to be an improvement over the European attempt. You do though? Have you looked at how many South Americans die on their way to America? I'm not surprised if you haven't, but it's actually quite a lot. Again the American solution is ignoring the problem, so calling it an improvement seems a bit... Arrogant. But whatver, this isn't america thread.
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Apr 11, 2016 20:50
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Friendly Humour posted:You do though? Have you looked at how many South Americans die on their way to America? I'm not surprised if you haven't, but it's actually quite a lot. Again the American solution is ignoring the problem, so calling it an improvement seems a bit... Arrogant. But whatver, this isn't america thread. Considering this and that last post I'm starting to think you don't know anything about the american or european immigration system.
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Apr 11, 2016 20:56
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drilldo squirt posted:Considering this and that last post I'm starting to think you don't know anything about the american or european immigration system. That's incredibly cool!
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Apr 11, 2016 20:58
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CrazyLoon posted:A consistent message that brings unity. It is not found anywhere in the west, precisely because of said 'cultural diversity.' Well, you're right, this guy is right. The message that the West Europe sends is that "daaaahhh, we're not worthy of anything and we have no culture" and certainly the recipients listen to this message. Even though some of the guys in this thread smack on describe some of the good attributed on the European culture. I don't have any idea what these people arguing against you are even arguing against, if they have not noticed this. A common argument seems to be - from the Left - that unless you cannot define a "culture" with a series of french lines then it lol doesn't exist and hurr hurr u can't critisize any other cultures becauze u can't even perfectly desrcibe ur own lol lol (probably followed by accusations of racism). On the other hand the same people will readily support the idea of a... I don't know, Somali culture, or an Arab culture, which we should, of course, respect and be sensitive about. Or am I wrong? That said, you cannot define culture as some sort of monolithic set of rules that everyone recognizes and respects. Or even agrees with. And that is okay. That actually is one of the aspects of Western culture: individualism out of social, tribal, or religious norms. While not perfect it's more advanced here than anywhere else. It's almost easier to describe what some culture loosely isn't than what it is. For example Europeans commonly believe in individuality while also trusting the state to keep things this or that way and that everyone living within the borders should follow a similar social contrat. And thus forth. They don't believe in the clan or the tribe or the exteneded family to keep care of this, which on the other hand is common in Middle-East and much of Africa. Ligur fucked around with this message at 21:05 on Apr 11, 2016 |
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Apr 11, 2016 21:02
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drilldo squirt posted:I disagree with your assessment but in any case we don't lose refuge children en masse. Which seems to be an improvement over the European attempt. Take in a million third world immigrants at once and we'll see what it will do to the notably calm and reasoned American public.
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Apr 11, 2016 21:04
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Ligur posted:
Can you expand on what makes you believe this?
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Apr 11, 2016 21:06
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drilldo squirt posted:Can you expand on what makes you believe this? Ask folks who think multiculturalism is the way to go if there is a Somali culture or the Muslim culture or the Arab culture Europeans should respect. They will say there is, quite often. Halal meat, scarves, hijabs, not insulting the propeht, whatever. Ask the same people if there is an European culture, or the Slovak culture or the Swedish culture, can you insult Jesus, and they will call you a racist and then tell you there is no such culture if someone didn't immediately define it to their satisfaction. Like in this thread, you read it, right? Try it. I, of course, will be happy if you try and they don't agree and tell you that there are no cultures at all and so forth but I don't find it likely. As for the Middle-East or Africa, they don't have mostly monocultural nation states like Europe by and large. While Nation states in Europe are diverse in a way, the people living there share some common feeling of pulling ont he same rope at least on some level and don't require shooting each other up to resolve who has political power but utilize stuff like democratic voting system (however faulty it can be, and I know some lefties will deny this is happening at all, but they are wrong, as witnessed by magic things like Welfare States). You can see from the aftermath of the Arab Spring that North-Africa and Middle-East have mostly arbitarily lines drawn in as countries with variying ethnical, tribal or religious cliques fighting for power. They don't want Western democracy. If they did, they would do it, but they don't. They don't do it and often very violently. For Iraq to have peace, they need a Saddam Hussein who just fucks up everyone who doesn't do what Saddam Hussein says. Displace him, and they will have an endless number of factions killing each other until one prevails, paying back for all past wrongs and so on. Or no? For an easy example: You could bomb the parliament in Finland or the equivalent in Norway and sell people cheap AK47's. They would still not divide into 5 clans at each others throats, trying to get to see who is the boss while stomping the others face first into the dirt. If you displace a military government in, say, Somalia, the various clans (and religious factions) will start fighting until someone subjucates the others. Or look at Libya for example. Did democracy ensue after Gaddafi was shot in the face? No, it's just factions fighting each other until someone wins (which probably doesn't happen as long as outsiders intervene). It's not fun, or right, or good, it's just how it is.
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Apr 11, 2016 21:23
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Ligur posted:
I don't think you know modern middle east history well enough if you really believe this. To actually say that they don't want democracy is insane on its face considering how many democracies "western civilisation" have overthrown or prevented there.
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Apr 11, 2016 21:38
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