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White Bordeaux is indeed hard to find. Make sure you're getting the classic style, which is mostly from Graves, barrique-aged, rich, and typically at least $30. Chateau de Cruzeau is an exception: a great producer who clocks in at only $25 here. The stuff you'll find for $20 or less is typically generic neutral white or occasionally some pleasant Sauvignon Blancs, but not the classic style.
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Mar 22, 2016 01:42
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Kasumeat posted:White Bordeaux is indeed hard to find. Make sure you're getting the classic style, which is mostly from Graves, barrique-aged, rich, and typically at least $30. Chateau de Cruzeau is an exception: a great producer who clocks in at only $25 here. The stuff you'll find for $20 or less is typically generic neutral white or occasionally some pleasant Sauvignon Blancs, but not the classic style. Yeah, I ended up getting a Chateau La Garde Blanc 2010, from a store way out in the 'burbs (which is my only knock on it... they have a very good selection and the service has always been great). It was worth going out of my way, no question. The real piss off was that they had at least a dozen different selections of (dry) white Bordeaux, some in multiple vintages, and apparently I didn't even go to the "collectables" area, while I'd been to three other stores that didn't have a goddamn thing.
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Mar 22, 2016 01:54
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Hey, goferchan, any word on that edi?
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Mar 23, 2016 00:38
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Having the Coonawarra Cab now. No sign of eucalyptus to begin with, but it's starting to come out with time in the glass. So far it seems like the opposite of this: Kasumeat posted:Cabernet Sauvignon and other Bordeaux grapes definitely have a herbaceous quality that can present as mint. But it's not as lifted as Australia's signature eucalyptol aroma which consistently presents in a great deal of Aussie wines, including those which aren't otherwise herbaceous at all. I.e. a herbaceous quality that reminds me of mint or eucalyptus. It's more than just the mint, green leaves and twigs (if that makes sense) as well, something I don't mind at all. Helps give the red berries some structure. Perhaps it's the vintage, perhaps I'm not sensitive to eucalyptus oil or something else? Anyway, a nice wine and good value. Speaking of white Bordeaux, I've had two of these a while back:  Peach and passion fruit, fresh, $20 in Norway so maybe $16-17 in the US if it's sold there. 50/50 semillon / sauvignon blanc. Perhaps they make these dry ones in bad botrytis years. Hope there are more bad vintages because it's great!
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Apr 1, 2016 17:39
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Oh poo poo I forgot about G de Ch. Guiraud. It's hands-down the best value for white Bordeaux, but unfortunately for me it doesn't get released here anymore. It's not a "bad vintage" wine, it's simply their dry white. I actually think they don't release it in poor years, not the other way around.
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Apr 1, 2016 18:26
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Shop I go to had some Kumeu Village so I grabbed a couple bottles. It is excellent, better than I expected.
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Apr 2, 2016 00:08
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Drinking some Felton Road Bannockburn Chardonnay. This could certainly pass for a village Burgundy, possibly even higher, and the price is extremely competitive at that quality level. New Zealand is putting out some good stuff, holy poo poo.
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Apr 7, 2016 02:15
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Thanks everyone for talking about South African Chenin. It seems like it's a thing in markets that doesn't produce local warm-climate wine (Canada, Germany, UK) but not elsewhere (US West coast, most of wine-producing Europe). One more question for everyone, particularly those involved with production: How do you feel about returning corked wine purchased directly at wineries? How long from purchase is too long to do so?
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Apr 7, 2016 15:54
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If the wine is truly corked (like real, flat-out TCA) the winery should honor a return at any point in the wine's life and no matter the point of purchase or time of purchase. If you buy a 15-yo bottle of Cakebread from the corner store and it's oxidized or heat-damaged or whatever, it's on you, but TCA is on the winery. That's one of the risks of using cork, and it's something that wineries should expect to deal with imo. Also to finesse that just a bit, if I were to buy 15-yo bottles direct and they were flawed (heat damage, whatever) I'd probably ask for a return within a year or so, assuming my storage was reasonable. I use cork because I like the look and feel, but I don't have any problems replacing corked bottles if people tell me. I'm still a tiny brand, so I'd actually go farther and replace most bottles if someone told me they thought they had a flawed experience. It's just good business.
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Apr 7, 2016 22:04
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I have been making Sagu recently with some cheap $10 bottles of red blends. So far it has been great! I have significantly increased my chances for developing alcoholism and diabetes. 3 liters of water to a boil add 1 cup tapioca pearls to water bring to boil again, then remove from heat let sit with lid on, stirring occasionally for about 3 hours rinse tapioca pearls under cold water in a colander to get all the slime away Add tapioca pearls, 10 whole cloves, 1 cup of sugar, and a bottle of wine (750ml) to something you can store in the fridge. Let this sit overnight EAT WINE
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Apr 8, 2016 02:56
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idiotsavant posted:If the wine is truly corked (like real, flat-out TCA) the winery should honor a return at any point in the wine's life and no matter the point of purchase or time of purchase. If you buy a 15-yo bottle of Cakebread from the corner store and it's oxidized or heat-damaged or whatever, it's on you, but TCA is on the winery. That's one of the risks of using cork, and it's something that wineries should expect to deal with imo. Also to finesse that just a bit, if I were to buy 15-yo bottles direct and they were flawed (heat damage, whatever) I'd probably ask for a return within a year or so, assuming my storage was reasonable. This is more or less what I was thinking, but I disagree on oxidation being the responsibility of the buyer. Bottling using cork is a winery decision and thus any potential issues that wouldn't have happened under screwcap are on the winery.
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Apr 8, 2016 22:27
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Kasumeat posted:This is more or less what I was thinking, but I disagree on oxidation being the responsibility of the buyer. Bottling using cork is a winery decision and thus any potential issues that wouldn't have happened under screwcap are on the winery. Aging a bottle under cork standing upright isn't a winemaker's fault.
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Apr 8, 2016 22:30
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Stitecin posted:Aging a bottle under cork standing upright isn't a winemaker's fault. Aging a bottle under cork is a winemaker's fault.
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Apr 8, 2016 22:47
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Stitecin posted:Aging a bottle under cork standing upright isn't a winemaker's fault. It isn't always the consumers fault either. The middle man can be an idiot after all. I have had several issues, ranging from TCA to microbial issues. Premox is something I have also encountered. Look, I get it, you want your wine to adhere to tradition, but get ready to pay for holding on to that. I return anywhere from 1 bottle, to 3 bottles a week average due to flaws. My favorite being when I get a case of Goldshmidt in that fizzed when it was opened; To be fair though, that isn't the corks fault. Nothing more fun that letting your distributor know that they need to come and pick up 300$ worth of wine.
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Apr 8, 2016 22:57
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Kasumeat posted:This is more or less what I was thinking, but I disagree on oxidation being the responsibility of the buyer. Bottling using cork is a winery decision and thus any potential issues that wouldn't have happened under screwcap are on the winery. TCA is an unavoidable result of using cork. Oxidation may occur with wines under cork, but can also result from poor storage, poor transport, etc. If I bought straight from the winery and the wines were oxidized I think it'd be reasonable to return them. If I bought them from other sources I wouldn't ask the winery to replace them; I'd ask the other source.
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Apr 9, 2016 02:45
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Kasumeat posted:Aging a bottle under cork is a winemaker's fault. Dumb and absolutist.
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Apr 9, 2016 02:55
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pork never goes bad posted:Dumb and absolutist. Agreed. Screwcap technology is at the point where there are literally zero advantages to cork (except for the winemakers who can dupe consumers into paying more for wines under cork) so it's time we called out cork use for what it is.
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Apr 9, 2016 05:46
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I'm being a little facetious, there are financial realities and I can't really fault winemakers for wanting to sell their product for more than it would under screwcap, even if it means compromising their product.idiotsavant posted:TCA is an unavoidable result of using cork. Oxidation may occur with wines under cork, but can also result from poor storage, poor transport, etc. If I bought straight from the winery and the wines were oxidized I think it'd be reasonable to return them. If I bought them from other sources I wouldn't ask the winery to replace them; I'd ask the other source. Oh yeah for sure, I always return to the retailer if I bought it from them.
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Apr 9, 2016 06:53
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Kasumeat posted:Agreed. Screwcap technology is at the point where there are literally zero advantages to cork (except for the winemakers who can dupe consumers into paying more for wines under cork) so it's time we called out cork use for what it is. I meant that your post is dumb and absolutist. I quite like popping a cork. And I like how the end product isn't always entirely predictable. Bottle variation is a feature not a bug of a handmade product.
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Apr 10, 2016 00:04
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I like variations in handmade products, but I don't like gambling whether something's going to be good or outright faulted -- that's too much variation for me. Corks will arguably never improve a wine at this point, since screwtop closures are now able to replicate the most desirable features of cork, so in the best case scenario, you get an identical product. In the worst case, you get a cork that's difficult to remove, or a wine that's faulted. All for what? The "experience" of popping a cork? I'm really, really glad to see more high-end wines opting to go with screw-top closures, personally. EDIT: Out of curiosity, are there any sparkling wines that have moved to non-cork closures? I can't recall seeing any sparking wine without a traditional cork-and-cage closure at any price point. PT6A fucked around with this message at 15:51 on Apr 10, 2016 |
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Apr 10, 2016 15:49
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PT6A posted:EDIT: Out of curiosity, are there any sparkling wines that have moved to non-cork closures? I can't recall seeing any sparking wine without a traditional cork-and-cage closure at any price point. Yes, there are lots of cheap sparkling wines bottled under screw caps, and the natural scene seems to embrace crown caps.
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Apr 10, 2016 16:50
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Kasumeat posted:Aging a bottle under cork is a winemaker's fault. Winemakers are partially at fault, but so are restaurant owners, somms, wineshop owners, clerks, "wine educators", and whoever else has failed to convince the wine buying public that screw caps are less risky than cork. I can't put our To Kalon under screw cap and watch it gather dust even if I think it is the right thing to do.
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Apr 10, 2016 16:56
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PT6A posted:I like variations in handmade products, but I don't like gambling whether something's going to be good or outright faulted -- that's too much variation for me. I understand these points, but I disagree. In part, I embrace the variability, the wildness, of natural wine, so I clearly have a higher tolerance for faults and for spoiled bottles than the typical wine drinker today. And I think that's ok - I do think it would be a good thing if more, or even most, wine was bottled under screwcap. But I'm not sure that I want that for all the wine I'm drinking. And while the best features of cork to you might be some degree of oxygen permeability or whatever, for me the best two features are the tradition, which I value for its own sake, and the bottle variation, which I value for its own sake. You can disagree of course, but please don't be an ideologue and please don't act like this is incomprehensible. These tend to be the reactions that screwcap and cork proponents give to each other. Admitting that there can be other goals than consistency but also admitting that consistency is a worthy goal doesn't seem too hard to me.
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Apr 10, 2016 17:12
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Stitecin posted:Winemakers are partially at fault, but so are restaurant owners, somms, wineshop owners, clerks, "wine educators", and whoever else has failed to convince the wine buying public that screw caps are less risky than cork. It's happening, but slowly. Certain clientele continue to have expectations regarding closures that aren't going to go away no matter what anyone says. As a somm, I've tried to 'convince' my guests that screw caps are not an indication of quality in and of themselves, but that isn't going to stop the occasional individual from sending it back. I was once told by a guest that I should be embarrassed for offering Ben Glaetzer's Bishop Shiraz because it was under screw cap. Of course, he expected me to discount Glaetzer's Amon Ra down to the same price since "the only difference is the cork." It's a consumer perception thing. They expect a luxury product to have a luxurious presentation, and to some people screw cap = cheap or tacky presentation. The upshot is that as we continue to demystify wine, old attitudes are changing. But it won't happen overnight.
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Apr 11, 2016 11:00
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Skinny posted:It's happening, but slowly. Certain clientele continue to have expectations regarding closures that aren't going to go away no matter what anyone says. As a somm, I've tried to 'convince' my guests that screw caps are not an indication of quality in and of themselves, but that isn't going to stop the occasional individual from sending it back. There's definitely certain regions that have embraced screwtops more than others. The real irony in the situation you point out here is that the wines which can withstand and indeed which require more age, are the ones most likely to still be under a more fallible cork closure. That's the opposite of what I would want as a consumer. Still, I suppose if you value tradition purely for its own sake, it makes sense to use cork.
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Apr 11, 2016 14:26
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Stitecin posted:Winemakers are partially at fault, but so are restaurant owners, somms, wineshop owners, clerks, "wine educators", and whoever else has failed to convince the wine buying public that screw caps are less risky than cork. There's not a whole lot you can do except wait until they die. The attachment to cork is 100% an emotional one, not a rational one. You can't use logic to argue against sentimental attachment. Fortunately, millennial wine drinkers are much more open-minded than the boomers and are happy to see screwcaps used for premium wine.
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Apr 11, 2016 20:17
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Kasumeat posted:There's not a whole lot you can do except wait until they die. The attachment to cork is 100% an emotional one, not a rational one. You can't use logic to argue against sentimental attachment. Fortunately, millennial wine drinkers are much more open-minded than the boomers and are happy to see screwcaps used for premium wine. Please make a rational proof necessitating the existence of wine in the modern era.
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Apr 11, 2016 20:27
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Overwined posted:Please make a rational proof necessitating the existence of wine in the modern era. It tastes good and it makes you feel good (except when it doesn't) and enough of it might get you laid.
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Apr 11, 2016 20:44
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The attachment to cork is often a perfectly rational one - that more people buy my expensive wine when it's under cork than screwcap is significantly more rational than most of your recent posts (except perhaps the part of one where you made this very point), Kasumeat.
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Apr 12, 2016 01:04
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As long as consumers are attached to cork (or, alternately, if they simply look down on packaging other than a cork-closed bottle) , it's rational for winemakers to close their bottle with corks. However, it's not rational for a consumer, at this point, to judge a wine as being even likely to be lesser quality because of the closure or packaging it's in, given the vast number of counterexamples currently available. How did all the winemakers Down Under convince people that screw-tops were perfectly acceptable, I wonder? They've certainly taken to it with a greater enthusiasm than pretty much anyone else, and drinking a lot of really commendable Aussie and Kiwi wine under screwtop was a big factor in convincing me that I want cork to vanish. Were their primary consumers less picky, more informed, more open-minded, less attached to tradition, or had less of a negative association with screwtops (perhaps because there were fewer poor wines bottled with a screwtop closure)?
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Apr 12, 2016 01:32
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The way I heard it is this way: Since almost all of the world's organic corks come from Portugal, the Portuguese made sure that other Europeans got the best cork first, then the Americans (because they had all the cash) then finally they gave whatever garbage they had lying around to winemakers from SA, NZ, Australia, etc. Ironically, Stelvins were developed in France, but at the behest of one of the older Australian wineries, Yalumba. They and so many other New World Producers (especially Southern Hemisphere) were experiencing demonstrably higher failure rates with the poo poo cork the Portuguese were foisting onto them, so they switched, which only makes sense. For the record I largely support and consume wine under Stelvin without hesitation. However, I find no reason to be a pedantic twat about something that none of us really needs and that exists for subjective pleasure and that alone. If you get more pleasure pulling a cork on some old French thing (as I often do), then I say more power to you.
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Apr 12, 2016 01:50
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Overwined posted:If you get more pleasure pulling a cork on some old French thing (as I often do), then I say more power to you. There's gotta be a good joke here. Something about corking a young French thing, perhaps.
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Apr 12, 2016 02:14
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pork never goes bad posted:There's gotta be a good joke here. Something about corking a young French thing, perhaps. If you are lucky enough to get a freshly corked French thing, it's better to keep it in there as long as you can hold out, that's what I say. Edited to make it more  subtle and maybe slightly less creepy.
Overwined fucked around with this message at 02:33 on Apr 12, 2016 |
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Apr 12, 2016 02:23
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One can have a personal preference of cork over screwcap, and that's fine, you have every right. Just be big enough to admit that it's pure sentimentality. Don't pretend it's 1983 and the objective superiority of screwcaps is still under question, because it isn't. For the purpose of sealing wine bottles for short- or long-term storage, there is not a single advantage of cork over modern screwcaps. Keep your romance, I'm legitimately jealous of it. But don't pretend it's anything but, and don't pretend the faults of cork are advantages, nor the faults of screwcaps of thirty years ago still exist today.Overwined posted:Please make a rational proof necessitating the existence of wine in the modern era. Are you suggesting that since wine isn't strictly necessary, it's therefore useless to store it properly?
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Apr 12, 2016 02:51
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I think almost all wine-drinkers romanticize wine to some degree, though. Speaking for myself, the only difference is that my attachment to wine doesn't extend to the container it comes in. But for some people it does, and that's okay. In terms of traditional closures and personal affinity for them, I wish that more winemakers would wax-seal their cork-closed bottles like Lopez de Heredia does, personally. It's cool and good, and although I'm not dealing with a large sample size at all (roughly 4), I've never seen a cork come out in less than ideal condition. Go big or go home, IMO.
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Apr 12, 2016 03:02
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Stitecin posted:Winemakers are partially at fault, but so are restaurant owners, somms, wineshop owners, clerks, "wine educators", and whoever else has failed to convince the wine buying public that screw caps are less risky than cork. This discussion probably hasn't changed anyone's minds, but it has definitively proven that convincing some people is literally impossible. PNGB is saying that he likes having a corked bottle here and an oxidised bottle there. You certainly can't argue with people like that.
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Apr 12, 2016 03:04
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Kasumeat posted:This discussion probably hasn't changed anyone's minds, but it has definitively proven that convincing some people is literally impossible. PNGB is saying that he likes having a corked bottle here and an oxidised bottle there. You certainly can't argue with people like that. I can see his point on oxidation, since I do love oxidative flavours in some wines (though I have no idea if oxidation from an imperfect cork is the same as that which occurs intentionally during fermentation or aging). Still, I'd prefer winemakers just experiment with allowing different degrees of oxidation. Ironically, I think natural wine would benefit most from an inert closure, since I would prefer to taste the natural variation that occurs from the growing and vinification rather than wondering what the closure might have imparted to the wine. But that's just me; I can see how allowing different degrees of oxidation to occur in natural wines during aging could be attractive (though TCA can gently caress itself permanently).
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Apr 12, 2016 03:12
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Kasumeat posted:One can have a personal preference of cork over screwcap, and that's fine, you have every right. Just be big enough to admit that it's pure sentimentality. Don't pretend it's 1983 and the objective superiority of screwcaps is still under question, because it isn't. For the purpose of sealing wine bottles for short- or long-term storage, there is not a single advantage of cork over modern screwcaps. Keep your romance, I'm legitimately jealous of it. But don't pretend it's anything but, and don't pretend the faults of cork are advantages, nor the faults of screwcaps of thirty years ago still exist today. All wine is sentimentality. I'm sorry for your broken brain, please don't spread your emotionless pedantry across the world, thanks in advance. quote:Are you suggesting that since wine isn't strictly necessary, it's therefore useless to store it properly? All wine is sentimentality. Everything about it. And I assume it is a function of your broken brain that you'd try to erect that absolutist, rock-stupid strawman. Kasumeat posted:This discussion probably hasn't changed anyone's minds, but it has definitively proven that convincing some people is literally impossible. PNGB is saying that he likes having a corked bottle here and an oxidised bottle there. You certainly can't argue with people like that. We realize we can't argue with someone like that, because it's absolutely totally their own sovereign right to enjoy exactly whatever the gently caress they want. This doesn't seem to stop you from arguing, though. Also, newsflash, your discussion isn't doing a loving thing to sway anyone to your black and white point of view. Perhaps if your POV were more well-thought out and presented a single person might find it compelling. What I'm saying is that I'm a Stelvin advocate and I think you hurt the cause.
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Apr 12, 2016 03:45
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PT6A posted:How did all the winemakers Down Under convince people that screw-tops were perfectly acceptable, I wonder? ...Were their primary consumers less picky, more informed, more open-minded, less attached to tradition...? I would say exactly the opposite. Protectionist trade policy and good old Aussie pride have made it really hard for imported wine to compete in any given price point, so when the entire industry decided that because Overwined posted:...almost all of the world's organic corks come from Portugal, the Portuguese made sure that other Europeans got the best cork first, then the Americans (because they had all the cash) then finally they gave whatever garbage they had lying around to winemakers from SA, NZ, Australia, etc... they were going to switch to screwcaps the wine drinking people of Aus had no other real choice. You're going to drop $35 on a bottle you can either get Cuvee Juveniles, or a bottle of Gigondas that the rest of the world has decided is worth about $18. (Torbreck is a bad example because the top end stuff is still under cork.)
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Apr 12, 2016 03:54
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Whatever the reason, without Australian conviction to Stelvins, the rest of the New World (and now significant parts of the Old World) probably wouldn't have caught on so fast. I did once have the second or third vintage of Pewsey Vale Contours put under Stelvin after it it had aged a couple of decades and it was magnificent.
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Apr 12, 2016 04:01
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