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LeftistMuslimObama posted:no, and it's a decision i extremely disagree with. the sad reality, though, is that there's a (right now) shortage of CS majors and H1Bs and not so much of "people with a bachelor's who can pass a math test" and so the QAers replacability suppresses their wages somewhat. A newly hired QAer fresh out of college makes $42-45k depending on whether they have a master's and how they do on the tests. real tenured people make 60k+. i'm the juniorest of devs (only 6 other people have my title because it's reserved for people who are transitioning from another role into dev and who haven't done their 1 year hard time in the transitional role yet) and i make 75k. last time a dev shared his salary with me, starting salary was between 90k-110k for devs again depending on education and testing. so does management last long
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# ? Apr 12, 2016 20:12 |
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# ? May 25, 2024 11:42 |
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fart simpson posted:so does management last long well, we're a "flat" company, so there's not "management" . there are team leads, their team leads, and then everyone from there up reports to the CEO or one of her direct reports. Once you become a TL, you're pretty much in for life. even in QA they get substantially larger annual raises than non-TLs so they tend to stick around. i think average TL tenure is around 12 years right now.
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# ? Apr 12, 2016 20:16 |
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Finster Dexter posted:
does he have a global var pipe="|" or not? this is kinda adorable either way.
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# ? Apr 12, 2016 20:16 |
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LeftistMuslimObama posted:no, and it's a decision i extremely disagree with. the sad reality, though, is that there's a (right now) shortage of CS majors and H1Bs and not so much of "people with a bachelor's who can pass a math test" and so the QAers replacability suppresses their wages somewhat. A newly hired QAer fresh out of college makes $42-45k depending on whether they have a master's and how they do on the tests. real tenured people make 60k+. i'm the juniorest of devs (only 6 other people have my title because it's reserved for people who are transitioning from another role into dev and who haven't done their 1 year hard time in the transitional role yet) and i make 75k. last time a dev shared his salary with me, starting salary was between 90k-110k for devs again depending on education and testing. where do you live?
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# ? Apr 12, 2016 20:19 |
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HoboMan posted:does he have a global var pipe="|" or not? Yup
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# ? Apr 12, 2016 20:21 |
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HoboMan posted:where do you live? you can find this out really easily by just creeping my posts itt or googling the name of the company. do we have to do everything for you?
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# ? Apr 12, 2016 20:27 |
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but then i would have to read more of your posts
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# ? Apr 12, 2016 20:28 |
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HoboMan posted:but then i would have to read more of your posts i have been owned
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# ? Apr 12, 2016 20:31 |
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lol interesting play for someone that was just asking him to answer a question you should read every post made by LeftistMuslimObama in this thread. they are very good.
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# ? Apr 12, 2016 20:31 |
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Barnyard Protein posted:lol interesting play for someone that was just asking him* to answer a question *her. and lets not go too far, like 5% of them are good, tops.
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# ? Apr 12, 2016 20:35 |
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i don't think you guys get this, i don't do this "reading" thing everyone keeps telling me to do
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# ? Apr 12, 2016 20:36 |
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LeftistMuslimObama posted:*her. i think that puts you in the best 5% of posters at least
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# ? Apr 12, 2016 20:38 |
LeftistMuslimObama posted:*her. Nah they are mostly good. Although I can only ever understand like half of your MUMPSposting because I don't really get MUMPS syntax. Did you ever do a primer post on it?
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# ? Apr 12, 2016 20:42 |
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HoboMan posted:is that what the perception is? because I think qa would be a cool gig and it requires at least as much creativity and technical knowhow as dev I'll just leave this here: http://www.leisuretown.com/library/qac/index.html
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# ? Apr 12, 2016 20:42 |
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for real those, people like eschaton, hackbunny, subjunctive, jawnv6, male shoegaze, et al (really sorry if i left anyone out, there's so many of you) are so smart and post such high level stuff it's intimidating. ppl like my posts, but i honestly think that having deep knowledge of something semi-obscure is causing people to overestimate me drastically. like, yeah i hacked some stuff on to a baby version of the unix kernel for an undergrad class, and sure i wrote a bug-laden stripped down c-to-mips compiler for another, but that's not real world experience and i had TAs and classmates (and the cavern of cobol for that matter) to fall back on when i got stuck. it's part of why i plan on sticking around at epic for a little while yet. i need to really believe im adequate as a programmer before i feel confident trying to branch out into something else. i think one day id like to work in systems stuff because of the challenge, but id be in like the bottom 1% of developers in that field. my OS programming course was insanely difficult and i did many 20 hour days getting my projects to work, but ive never had more or felt more proud of things i produced than in that course. but that was working with an insanely simplfied version of a 70s vintage unix kernel and modern systems stuff is lightyears past that.
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# ? Apr 12, 2016 20:46 |
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JimboMaloi posted:haha, what? having a separate set of eyes for qa is important because most devs are terrible at actually doing qa but having someone else write the unit tests is both shameful and ineffective if I write unit tests im writing what I think I need to test. If theres a QA department they should be writing the tests.
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# ? Apr 12, 2016 20:47 |
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LeftistMuslimObama posted:it's part of why i plan on sticking around at epic for a little while yet. i need to really believe im adequate as a programmer before i feel confident trying to branch out into something else. i think one day id like to work in systems stuff because of the challenge, but id be in like the bottom 1% of developers in that field. my OS programming course was insanely difficult and i did many 20 hour days getting my projects to work, but ive never had more or felt more proud of things i produced than in that course. but that was working with an insanely simplfied version of a 70s vintage unix kernel and modern systems stuff is lightyears past that. If you feel you've done the learning you've had to do at your current place and there's no opportunity for you to improve by taking on different (or higher-ranked) roles either, then trying to do that at another company can help your personal development, even if it is just to broaden perspectives into a new area you know little about. Mostly every job I've personally taken I had very little idea what I was doing, but every time, there's less and less fear since you know you can adapt and every new job you carry more knowledge and expertise with you.
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# ? Apr 12, 2016 21:03 |
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LeftistMuslimObama posted:no, and it's a decision i extremely disagree with. the sad reality, though, is that there's a (right now) shortage of CS majors and H1Bs and not so much of "people with a bachelor's who can pass a math test" and so the QAers replacability suppresses their wages somewhat. A newly hired QAer fresh out of college makes $42-45k depending on whether they have a master's and how they do on the tests. real tenured people make 60k+. i'm the juniorest of devs (only 6 other people have my title because it's reserved for people who are transitioning from another role into dev and who haven't done their 1 year hard time in the transitional role yet) and i make 75k. last time a dev shared his salary with me, starting salary was between 90k-110k for devs again depending on education and testing. thats why a lot of people who would prefer qa don't do qa, and its why there needs to be more overlap and mobility for test, dev, and ops. i do understand epic is a pile of legacy poop on top of insurance and hospital piles of poop all talking to each via various colons spewing poop bidirectionally, so having to employ a small army of manual qa is a business reality .
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# ? Apr 12, 2016 21:16 |
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LeftistMuslimObama posted:for real those, people like eschaton, hackbunny, subjunctive, jawnv6, male shoegaze, et al (really sorry if i left anyone out, there's so many of you) are so smart and post such high level stuff it's intimidating. ppl like my posts, but i honestly think that having deep knowledge of something semi-obscure is causing people to overestimate me drastically. like, yeah i hacked some stuff on to a baby version of the unix kernel for an undergrad class, and sure i wrote a bug-laden stripped down c-to-mips compiler for another, but that's not real world experience and i had TAs and classmates (and the cavern of cobol for that matter) to fall back on when i got stuck. if you want a job converting a vb.net web forms app to c#/mvc then boy do I have a job for you!
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# ? Apr 12, 2016 21:17 |
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^i said we should do that with our stuff "the return on that investment is not worth it" -guy says about software that we will soon force every branch to use and is the linchpin of the company's growth plan but hey they hired me so i should have assumed no one knows what they are doing
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# ? Apr 12, 2016 21:27 |
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VikingofRock posted:Nah they are mostly good. Although I can only ever understand like half of your MUMPSposting because I don't really get MUMPS syntax. Did you ever do a primer post on it? y know, i don't think i did. it's not too hard and ive been at work since 6am so i guess ill take a break and write one now this is an incomplete list of basic commands in MUMPS. note that each command can be written in full or abbreviated to 1 or 2 letters. also note that there are no reserved words in MUMPS so you are free to name tags, routines, variables, etc with the names of any of the commands. whether it's a command or a name is determined by its position in the expression. also, commands aren't case sensitive even though identifiers are. our house style is to do lower case for commands and uppercase for system functions. D or DO. This command is used to call a routine, subroutine, or function for which you don't want a return value. For example: code:
code:
S or SET. this command sets a variable (or array, or global, or subscript of either of those) to the value on the rhs of an = expression. for example: code:
N or NEW. this command declares a variable and initializes it to null (the empty string ""). scope on variables behaves basically how you would expect if you've used an curly brace language. code:
Q or QUIT. this command is fuckin' overloaded to hell and back. within a loop it acts as a CONTINUE statement. in the control expression of a loop it acts as a conditional break statement. in the outer scope of a function it's a RETURN statement (and can return a value or not, with no requirement that all quits in a function return a value. a quit with no value is implicitly a return of ""). i'm going to use inline comments in this code block. note that comments in MUMPS start with a ";" instead of a "//". code:
FOR or F. this is the basic for loop. it looks not unlike the curly-brace for loop, but with a couple differences. a for loop on its own just increments the counting variable in whatever way it's told. it won't actually do any code unless a DO command is on the same line (the line is the fundamental unit of code in MUMPS), in which case on each iteration the loop will do the code within the "do blocK". a "do block" is a bunch of code after a DO where the lines start with periods. you can tell what scope level you're in by the number of periods at the start of a line. in a FOR loop, the "DO" can have pre and post conditional statements. the preconditional is evaluated before the DO is executed and causes the loop to terminate before entering the DO block if true. the postconditional is checked after the DO is complete but before the next iteration and also terminates the loop. also I or IF is an if statement. you should know how this works. code:
An interesting feature of this loop code is that there's a single space between all commands on a line except between the "d" and the postconditional. whitespace has meaning in MUMPS. the double-space there mans that the do block should be executed before the rest of the current line is executed. im not sure what happens if you only single-space there as our in-house linter won't let you even save code that makes that error. there's also a while loop in MUMPS but we dont use it because for is always faster (lol) and you can just write "f d q:condition" to get the same behavior. i think ive explained arrays and globals elsewhere itt, so i won't go over the $o and $ q loops. instead let's discuss tags so that i can finish off with functions and nesting. a tag is essentially a label you place on a section of code within a routine. think of a routine as a BASIC program except that you only have to put the numbers in front of lines of code that define the beginning of a logical unit. tags are defined by writing an unindented string. all executable code is indented by a tab. it's common style to "new" all the variables a tag uses on the same line as the tag name. you define args with parentheses. passing an arg by reference is essentially treated by the runtime as newing variables with the args' names and then setting their values. you can pass an argument into a tag by reference by prefixing its name with a period. tags can be called or fallen through into (although fallthough tags are discouraged these days). you use a tag as a function by prefixing its name with "$$" and using it on the RHS of an assignment or boolean expression. code:
code:
code:
i think ive covered all the other features of the language at some level somewhere itt, but let me know if you want more
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# ? Apr 12, 2016 21:35 |
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HoboMan posted:^i said we should do that with our stuff for some of it its gonna be a case of "why is this an application and not just ssis/ssrs?" followed shortly by "oh here is the next version of this application. why yes that certainly does look like SSRS reporting, doesn't it?" for others its gonna be a herculean effort to pull back offshore development to a new internal development team. luckily management is fully behind us doing this because they're tired of the offshore people. they aren't bad people or anything. like they aren't screwing us over or w/e, they just aren't great at programming.
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# ? Apr 12, 2016 21:36 |
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i'm a bad programmer and no one here should feel bad about themselves
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# ? Apr 12, 2016 21:38 |
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i've worked at two companies with dedicated qa people. at one they were well paid and an integral part of the team and yet 100% useless and i never missed them after they were let go. at the other, we used an outsourcing service that was oddly effective and useful. we'd just write up a test plan and throw it at 20 poorly paid testers that may or may not have known enough english to actually read the instructions. one or two would actually try to deliberately break things and sometimes find bugs, a few more would follow the instructions correctly and be mostly useless other than pointing out typos and minor visual errors, and the other fifteen would try to follow the testing instructions but gently caress up pretty much every step and then report a bunch of spurious bugs because they were unable to complete step 4 of the test plan after skipping step 3 entirely. we initially were annoyed by this third group, but then of course we discovered that our actual users did pretty much the same thing, so while they weren't great for finding bugs, they were great for finding ux issues and making everything as idiot-proof as possible
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# ? Apr 12, 2016 21:49 |
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we have a user who is on the spectrum, but he makes the absolute best bug reports cause when he has a problem he goes into detail to reproduce it by himself and then sends a detailed ticket. he also manages to find all the bizarre, unhandled workflows.
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# ? Apr 12, 2016 21:51 |
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Shaggar posted:we have a user who is on the spectrum, but he makes the absolute best bug reports cause when he has a problem he goes into detail to reproduce it by himself and then sends a detailed ticket. he also manages to find all the bizarre, unhandled workflows. microsoft test manager is a pile of garbage y/n?
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# ? Apr 12, 2016 22:00 |
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welp it's 4pm and my brain is loving done but I still have to sit here for like an hour doing fuckall fuuuuuuuuuuuuccccckkkkk maybe i'll work on documentation lol no i wont
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# ? Apr 12, 2016 22:01 |
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HoboMan posted:cherish him I think that's just for qa people. don't use that if you are dev
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# ? Apr 12, 2016 22:03 |
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HoboMan posted:cherish him never used it
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# ? Apr 12, 2016 22:09 |
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Finster Dexter posted:welp it's 4pm and my brain is loving done but I still have to sit here for like an hour doing fuckall fuuuuuuuuuuuuccccckkkkk lol if u cant just leave when ur sick of the poo poo
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# ? Apr 12, 2016 22:18 |
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Finster Dexter posted:I think that's just for qa people. don't use that if you are dev oh, it's the only thing tat comes up if i google for automated testing in visual studio so i thought it was for that and maybe just micrisoft's docs about it were really bad
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# ? Apr 12, 2016 22:19 |
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VSTest
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# ? Apr 12, 2016 22:28 |
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or NUnit
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# ? Apr 12, 2016 22:28 |
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I store my credentials in my Python scripts
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# ? Apr 12, 2016 22:33 |
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lol, i just found out that not only was our outsourced tablet app made in ruby on rails but the security stuff like passwords and poo poo is hardcoded and they don't want to give us the souce code either
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# ? Apr 12, 2016 22:38 |
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Pumpy Dumper posted:I store my credentials in my Python scripts jsut base64 that poo poo and you good
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# ? Apr 12, 2016 22:48 |
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HoboMan posted:lol, i just found out that not only was our outsourced tablet app made in ruby on rails but the security stuff like passwords and poo poo is hardcoded uhhh if that's true and they gave you the source then that would be a huge security leak, duh
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# ? Apr 12, 2016 22:50 |
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FamDav posted:yeah, the three stages are this is why my job is CD Engineer, you generally need a lot of help for 1-2 and then your platform will be responsible for 2-3
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# ? Apr 12, 2016 23:11 |
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I think TDD is a good idea wrapped up in a bunch of dumb dogma. the kernel of "write tests against spec, then write function until tests pass" is a pretty useful maxim and something anyone can glom onto even if they don't really have experience with the unit test framework. the thing that needs to really be changed is the dev attitude towards testing, and the industry treatment of QA as a hellpit for idiots and women. the problem with the first one is that every dev I've ever met is incredibly resistant to changing their process, so they don't want to do things differently. when you give them a test framework, their goal is to try and jack it into their existing workflow and make things complicated, which fucks over your QA people who aren't devs and then they can't write tests any more. I'm in the middle of this right now and it sucks.
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# ? Apr 12, 2016 23:12 |
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# ? May 25, 2024 11:42 |
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LeftistMuslimObama posted:ppl like my posts, but i honestly think that having deep knowledge of something semi-obscure is causing people to overestimate me drastically. like, yeah i hacked some stuff on to a baby version of the unix kernel for an undergrad class, and sure i wrote a bug-laden stripped down c-to-mips compiler for another, but that's not real world experience and i had TAs and classmates (and the cavern of cobol for that matter) to fall back on when i got stuck. thanks for the callout! I really think you'd be surprised though how many people don't do those sorts of things even in CS grad school, making it through an undergrad program where you do them—and not one that's entirely Java-, C#, or web-focused—actually is an achievement and a good predictor of success in my experience similarly you underestimate just what it means that you can actually be productive in an otherworldly nightmare like MUMPS/Caché, the fact that you can means you'll feel completely spoiled by even the most minimally modern, decent environment and probably still do really good, careful work
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# ? Apr 13, 2016 00:12 |