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LightWarden posted:Depends on the class. At level 2 Warlocks can teleport three squares as a move action (or as a free action upon dropping a foe for the right pacts) and gain a defensive bonus because of it, while Avengers can teleport 3 squares as an immediate reaction to being hit, while someone with the Samurai Theme and a staff of travel can teleport half their speed from the start of combat. Eladrin can teleport 5 squares as a move action from level 1 (or down to a minor with the right theme by level 10). Making it a free action on your turn then it probably be around a level 6 utility power or so (when monks can get Quicksilver Motion to move their speed as a free action at the start or end of their turn), though a wondrous item might have a bit higher of a level since there's not as much of an opportunity cost in using it. Looking at 3e's teleportation spells, comparable to something like a quickened dimensional hop, which would be a level 6 or so spell and require a caster level of 11, or better if it's a free action instead of a swift action (though the distance doesn't scale with level like the spell does). Thanks, that's absolutely perfect advice. At the end of tonight's session the rogue should hit level 6. He wields two shortswords, so I think giving him a way to make full attacks from an advantageous position will go a long way to fulfilling his character's power fantasy. I'm going with a smaller number of more valuable magic items, in general, as we're playing on Tabletop Simulator and using actual color coded rupees as money. So for the most part, magic items aren't for sale and can only found in dungeons. It's all extremely Link to the Past, and everyone seems to be having a grand time so far.
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Apr 12, 2016 18:14
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How well would a party deal with not having a leader? We're starting a 4e game on Saturday for the first time in a few years, and I don't remember ever playing in a group without some sort of leader, myself being the primary person to pick up that role.
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Apr 12, 2016 19:22
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It can get pretty rough unless you've got some people who are at the top of their game in damage/attack mitigation, because you're down to just second winds for HP recovery making fights very much a feast-or-famine deal that can turn south quickly if someone gets mobbed. There are ways to adapt, like being a hybrid leader (hybriding cleric with either ranger or barbarian creates a guy who can beat faces and still patch people up), playing one of the leader classes with some healing ability (paladins and lifespirit wardens) or multiclassing into a leader class and maybe also power swapping.
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Apr 12, 2016 19:34
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Leader is probably one of the more essential roles, possibly the most, but you can certainly do it. In theory the XP budget system holds up no matter the party composition, just in some cases better than others. I'd recommend keeping a good stock of potions around, maybe try and work something out with the DM so you all get Quick Draw for free for more efficient potion use, or just take the feat. Your DM might have to adjust rewards a bit so potions don't start eating into your regular item budget too much (it's gonna be a bit rough particularly in the early levels). If that doesn't work out try taking leader multiclass feats, leadery character options if available (paladins are pretty decent at it) or as a last resort having a leader NPC.
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Apr 12, 2016 19:35
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A leader NPC built using the companion character rules would be pretty unobtrusive, especially if the DM let you guys control him. They're also pretty simple, so it wouldn't add a ton of rules overhead.
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Apr 12, 2016 19:41
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Or just have the DM give the Leader ability to whoever it fits most appropriately thematically with and/or whoever typically uses the fewest minor actions: 2/enc, minor action, surge + mod or surge+1d6, add a d6 every 5 (iirc) levels.
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Apr 12, 2016 19:55
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P.d0t posted:Or just have the DM give the Leader ability to whoever it fits most appropriately thematically with and/or whoever typically uses the fewest minor actions: 2/enc, minor action, surge + mod or surge+1d6, add a d6 every 5 (iirc) levels.
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Apr 12, 2016 20:42
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At that point you don't even have to give anything to anyone, just say "yo you, as a group, can spend a surge +1d6 for free twice per fight." I'd say, though, that what makes or breaks the whole leader thing isn't so much the surges as the assorted bonuses leaders give out. Attack bonuses, extra actions, rerolls... e: vvv regularly throw some Potions of Clarity and Elixirs of Accuracy/Fort/Ref/Will in the mix and you're pretty much good to go, save for resulting issues with action economy. My Lovely Horse fucked around with this message at 21:08 on Apr 12, 2016 |
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Apr 12, 2016 20:58
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I've found that giving everyone a bunch of potions of healing has worked well for my leaderless group, at least for levels 1-4.
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Apr 12, 2016 21:01
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You can hybrid a Cleric into drat near everything without significant problems. Str/Wis covers a lot classes and Battle Cleric's Lore handles any AC issues. Fighter|Cleric, Barbarian|Cleric, Ranger(melee)|Cleric are all solid. Baladin|Cleric. Dex/Str hybrids like Ranger(archer)|Cleric and Rogue|Cleric also work. Basically, any class that uses Str/Wis as either primary or secondary can work as a Cleric hybrid. Battle Cleric's Lore will cover all AC issues and hybrid Clerics still pack a significant amount of healing. You can also hybrid a Warlord into pretty much anything and make it work regardless of stats, because you can either take lazylord powers(e.g. Direct the Strike) or MBA-based powers(e.g. Vengeance is Mine).
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Apr 12, 2016 21:10
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ImpactVector posted:You could even give it to everyone and have the party share the 2/enc limit. Leaders are pretty vital just for the get-knocked-down-get-back-up element, so this is the best solution IMO The lack of buffs can be much more easily compensated for than the chance that a lucky crit can knock someone down and startr the death spiral as you spend a whole turn getting there and second winding them. If you can even do that reliably at the level you're at. E: Haling Potions only work well at very early levels. They quickly get eclipsed both by monster damage and by PC surge value.
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Apr 12, 2016 21:19
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Bard PP choice between War Chanter and Lyrandar Wind Rider. When does War Chanter become a better choice than the Wind Rider, or is it team dependant? I know War Chanter is absolutely insane as a PP on a Valor Bard, though I'm also wondering how good the Wind Rider +Con to damage is on everything you do. Most of the reason that I'm asking is that combat tends to actually last a large number of turns, and not just two turns and done, due to most of the characters made only getting to be outfitted with the core 3 items (Weapon, Armor, Amulet) and only mundane things otherwise mostly because we're low level normally. I suspect I'm going to be going War Chanter regardless, as the option to cause the Twin Strike ranger to explode something on their turn seems too good to pass up. Yukari fucked around with this message at 21:32 on Apr 12, 2016 |
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Apr 12, 2016 21:28
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You're still not going to set the world on fire by adding damage to your own attacks. Far more effective to boost the bejesus out of a proper striker.
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Apr 12, 2016 21:32
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thespaceinvader posted:Leaders are pretty vital just for the get-knocked-down-get-back-up element The rest of the stuff is great high-five fodder, but you can get by without it.
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Apr 12, 2016 21:33
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Yukari posted:Bard PP choice between War Chanter and Lyrandar Wind Rider. When does War Chanter become a better choice than the Wind Rider, or is it team dependant? I know War Chanter is absolutely insane as a PP on a Valor Bard, though I'm also wondering how good the Wind Rider +Con to damage is on everything you do. Lyander Wind Rider is fun if you really dig that +1 to attack and +con to damage, but outside of that it's a really boring PP. The AP feature and level 12 utility give you flight, but Bards are already known for their ability to move themselves and others around a battlefield. The encounter power at 11 is also pretty meh, being an area burst attack with only a single prone attached. Wind Rider is more for optimizing your Storm builds. If you want to focus on being a leader, I'd go war chanter and save Wind Rider for a Sorcerer or something. Full Disclosure: I've played two Cha Paladins with Wind rider.
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Apr 12, 2016 21:37
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Mecha Gojira posted:Lyander Wind Rider is fun if you really dig that +1 to attack and +con to damage, but outside of that it's a really boring PP. The AP feature and level 12 utility give you flight, but Bards are already known for their ability to move themselves and others around a battlefield. The encounter power at 11 is also pretty meh, being an area burst attack with only a single prone attached. Hmm... that sounds good actually. I'll probably try Wind Rider once, and then remake the character for War Chanter on higher level boards.
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Apr 12, 2016 21:45
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Yukari posted:Bard PP choice between War Chanter and Lyrandar Wind Rider. When does War Chanter become a better choice than the Wind Rider, or is it team dependant? I know War Chanter is absolutely insane as a PP on a Valor Bard, though I'm also wondering how good the Wind Rider +Con to damage is on everything you do. Most of the reason that I'm asking is that combat tends to actually last a large number of turns, and not just two turns and done, due to most of the characters made only getting to be outfitted with the core 3 items (Weapon, Armor, Amulet) and only mundane things otherwise mostly because we're low level normally. Wind Rider is a striker PP. Are you a striker? No. Don't take Wind Rider, take the single best leader PP in the game. Make your DM cry.
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Apr 12, 2016 21:45
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Yeah, Warchanter is fantastic and the AP feature is better than you'd think once you hit level 16 and can spend two APs per round. That way you can keep your AP feature running for three to four rounds in a fight and keep the good vibes flowing.
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Apr 12, 2016 21:58
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LightWarden posted:Yeah, Warchanter is fantastic and the AP feature is better than you'd think once you hit level 16 and can spend two APs per round. That way you can keep your AP feature running for three to four rounds in a fight and keep the good vibes flowing. War Chanter is utterly utterly stupid at Epic when you get stuff like Climactic Chord and Valourous Charge and can potentially wind up handing an encounter its arse in turn one. Turn. Not round.
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Apr 12, 2016 22:20
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Doesn't the free action limit stop you from using those two in the same turn?
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Apr 12, 2016 22:25
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LightWarden posted:Doesn't the free action limit stop you from using those two in the same turn? The limit is to free action attacks, not free actions. Action Points are a free action that give you an extra Standard.
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Apr 12, 2016 22:27
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Yeah, but both Climatic Chord and Valorous Charge give the entire party attacks as a free action, so wouldn't they be prevented from working in the same turn?
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Apr 12, 2016 22:29
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LightWarden posted:Doesn't the free action limit stop you from using those two in the same turn? Stuff like. I can;t remember the exact sequence of poo poo it's been like a year but there's a couple of things that give out actions rather than attacks (i.e. take a free standard actions) which aren't subject to the limit, as well as a couple of ways to change free MBAs to standards. But generally yes it does. However, You can throw out some loving insane beatdowns nonetheless. I mean, even an at-will as a free action for a well-optimised party with +14/+14 will demolish many if not most things.
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Apr 12, 2016 22:30
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How broken would allowing the characters to drink a potion as a free action each round be? That way they could drink a bunch of healing potions or actually use consumables without worrying about the action economy. Or would that work better as an Encounter ability?
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Apr 12, 2016 22:31
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Not hugely. Most healing potions consume surges for a lower rate of return than your healing surge values making them more for emergency healing than anything else. There are some encounter-long potions that provide things like regeneration or resistance but considering you can frequently down them right before the fight and save your actions that way then it's still not a huge advantage.
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Apr 12, 2016 22:34
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bbcisdabomb posted:How broken would allowing the characters to drink a potion as a free action each round be? That way they could drink a bunch of healing potions or actually use consumables without worrying about the action economy. Or would that work better as an Encounter ability? Not remotely broken. One of the house rules I'd advise would be basically to remove any case in the game where you have to take a minor action to prepare for something. No sheathing and drawing to get out potions for drinking etc. Just 'minor action, drink potion'.
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Apr 12, 2016 22:58
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I was figuring it wouldn't be too bad since the potion bandolier exists and doesn't take a slot. I think I'll give it a try when my group gets back to 4e (in like five years, at this rate)
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Apr 13, 2016 00:42
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thespaceinvader posted:Wind Rider is a striker PP. Are you a striker? No. Don't take Wind Rider, take the single best leader PP in the game. Make your DM cry. Actually, that brings me to another question. What makes a striker a striker? More damage on their skills than the other classes? Tons of free attacks? Lots of single target damage? Most of my pen and paper experience has been mostly PF/3.5 and holy trinity MMOs for role based things, so seeing the ability to do surprisingly high damage on non-striker/DPS classes surprises me. It might also be that aside from the one Barbarian that I've made, the strikers I've seen at low levels don't seem to do that much more damage than other classes. Yukari fucked around with this message at 18:05 on Apr 13, 2016 |
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Apr 13, 2016 18:02
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Yukari posted:Actually, that brings me to another question. What makes a striker a striker? More damage on their skills than the other classes? Tons of free attacks? Lots of single target damage? All of the above. The best strikers get multiple attacks with multiple stacking buffs on those attacks, against single targets that they can easily pick and choose. The quintessential striker feature is high single target damage, and there are only a relatively few ways of accomplishing that in 4e.
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Apr 13, 2016 18:04
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Every class has a special feature that reflects their role. Defenders get to mark enemies and punish mark violations in order to make themselves attractive targets. Leaders get the twice-per-encounter minor action healing power that usually adds some hefty bonuses to the amount healed. Strikers get a feature that lets them deal more damage - Rogues get extra damage with combat advantage, rangers and warlock get to target particular enemies, sorcerers add a low fixed amount but get area attacks, and so on. Avengers get an accuracy boost, which comes down to more damage, just in a different way. (And 1d6 may not sound like a lot of extra damage, but it's all about adding up over time.) You'll notice the lack of controllers in the list. They're much harder to nail down on any one "role feature". Usually they do a mixture of area attacks, imposing conditions and applying saving throw penalties but there's not the one thread running through their design like with the others, especially since tons of other classes do the same thing (fey warlocks are essentially half striker, half controller, bards usually impose penalties on enemies...). My Lovely Horse fucked around with this message at 18:12 on Apr 13, 2016 |
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Apr 13, 2016 18:10
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thespaceinvader posted:All of the above. I see. Since atm, what I see happening is our striker does Twin Strike for 1d12+1+1d8 assuming 1 hit. The bard does 1d12+5 + some slides, or staggering notes something next to the ranger for another quarry proc.
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Apr 13, 2016 18:12
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Yukari posted:What makes a striker a striker? Well, unlike 3.5/PF, classes actually have capital-R Roles; if your role is Striker, you get mechanics to back up the role of "does more damage."
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Apr 13, 2016 18:12
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Yukari posted:I see. Since atm, what I see happening is our striker does Twin Strike for 1d12+1+1d8 assuming 1 hit. Generally both attacks should hit.
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Apr 13, 2016 18:25
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My Lovely Horse posted:At that point you don't even have to give anything to anyone, just say "yo you, as a group, can spend a surge +1d6 for free twice per fight." Thinking about this yesterday, the Skald I was playing was pretty much "two minor surge spends per fight" and it actually worked really well. I got to do stuff other than heal people, and people still got to heal even if no Leader was going for a while. The range limit was technically a problem, but I think it came up all of once in fifteen levels. If you were going to do that, I'd include "you can spend a minor action and let an adjecent person spend the surge instead" since it really helps for when tanks get triple-critted or strikers get surprised.
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Apr 13, 2016 19:27
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Rangers get even better when they get more modifiers to their damage, plus immediate action attacks, plus minor action attacks, plus multiattacks. Plus, if they can get prime shot active, they're pretty drat accurate as well.
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Apr 13, 2016 19:29
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Yukari posted:I see. Since atm, what I see happening is our striker does Twin Strike for 1d12+1+1d8 assuming 1 hit. The bard does 1d12+5 + some slides, or staggering notes something next to the ranger for another quarry proc.
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Apr 13, 2016 20:01
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Yukari posted:I see. Since atm, what I see happening is our striker does Twin Strike for 1d12+1+1d8 assuming 1 hit. The bard does 1d12+5 + some slides, or staggering notes something next to the ranger for another quarry proc. Rangers are nothing special at low level. But when they get up to 5 or 6 attacks in a round and they all have +10 or so damage (early Paragon with careful building) the gap really starts to show.
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Apr 13, 2016 20:09
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thespaceinvader posted:Rangers are nothing special at low level. But when they get up to 5 or 6 attacks in a round and they all have +10 or so damage (early Paragon with careful building) the gap really starts to show. Is that 5-6 attacks in a round using encounter skills or dailies?
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Apr 13, 2016 20:24
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Yukari posted:Is that 5-6 attacks in a round using encounter skills or dailies? Encounters is possible, dailies is definite. I mean, just getting a single minor action attack gets you five attacks in an AP round.
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Apr 13, 2016 20:31
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| # ? Jun 6, 2024 08:25 |
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Two Weapon Opening. Melegaunt's Darkblade. Crit Like You Mean It.
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Apr 13, 2016 20:36
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