|
sparatuvs posted:Eastern Europe: I don't know, but it definitely means ww3 starts tomorrow.
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2016 20:02
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 14, 2024 19:35 |
|
|
steinrokkan posted:Invasion is not the only way for Russia to bully Poland if it didn't have a strong military deterrent. THough the threat of political destabilization doesn't seem so bad now that PiS is a thing... Quite a few people are convinced Macierewicz is a Russian agent, especially since the time he gutted military intelligence service the last time PiS was in power. It was a disaster with names of foreign assets leaked and completely obliterating credibility of Polish intel services. He sadly escaped responsibility since next government didn't want to appear vindictive.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2016 20:07
|
|
|
sparatuvs posted:It's more a sign of messed up priorities. Actually it seems a very sensible size. Europe massively under funds its militaries because it relies on the US. This is not a secret. Problem is due to corruption and tax evasion no one actually has any spare money without cutting into things like welfare. And they'll gladly tear welfare up before doing anything about corruption. In the UK it seems like we have the choice of a decent military, the NHS, working infrastructure. PICK ONE. Currently the roads still work but we're slowly losing the NHS and our military consists of a dingy and an old man with a shotgun.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2016 20:11
|
|
|
redscare posted:The Poles have actually built up a decent army. On paper, it could beat the comically underfunded Bundeswehr and take Berlin. Russia would get a proper bloody nose if it tried anything. Their dudes in the Iraq coalition were also quite well respected, I hear.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2016 20:12
|
|
|
GreyjoyBastard posted:Their dudes in the Iraq coalition were also quite well respected, I hear. So we still haven't said why Poland needs a big military. Besides fueling Nazis and invading Iraq, both of which are bad things.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2016 20:18
|
|
|
sparatuvs posted:So we still haven't said why Poland needs a big military. Besides fueling Nazis and invading Iraq, both of which are bad things. So, would you like the US to be literally the world policeman for half the world?
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2016 20:31
|
|
|
steinrokkan posted:So, would you like the US to be literally the world policeman for half the world? No you see, everyone should just have a token border guard regiment.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2016 20:35
|
|
I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
|
steinrokkan posted:So, would you like the US to be literally the world policeman for half the world? Hmm maybe there is a middle ground Probably based on the fact that Poland is not going to get invaded by Russia even if they have a couple hundred fewer tanks
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2016 20:36
|
|
|
blowfish posted:No you see, everyone should just have a token border guard regiment. That's a good start, coast guard ships are important too.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2016 20:40
|
|
|
sparatuvs posted:Hmm You never know what those Lithuanians are up to. Can't be too careful these days.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2016 20:43
|
|
|
steinrokkan posted:So, would you like the US to be literally the world policeman for half the world? You think that US spending on the military is because the rest of us aren't pulling their weight rather than it's own geopolitical interests in being a global superpower?
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2016 20:46
|
|
|
Puntification posted:You think that US spending on the military is because the rest of us aren't pulling their weight rather than it's own geopolitical interests in being a global superpower? Actually, the whole point of NATO was to keep Europe mostly demilitarized. After seeing them fight two major wars within 20 years, it seemed like a good idea to put their militaries in time out for a while. I'm not sure a significant arms race on the continent is a good idea even at this date. More preferable would be greater political integration and a pan-European force.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2016 20:55
|
|
|
No, we definitely need huge standing armies for there for a type of conflict that doesn't exist anymore. The warehouses full of rotting tanks will serve as fantastic hangouts for uneducated adolescents who missed out on education because he had to buy a battleship and tank brigade so we can live out a fantasy where we beat the Germans and Soviets.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2016 20:58
|
|
|
Not having a military doesn't matter up until the point that it does, which is often quite sudden. I'm a pinko lefty and even I know that you gotta have a functioning military, goddamn.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2016 21:08
|
|
|
Puntification posted:You think that US spending on the military is because the rest of us aren't pulling their weight rather than it's own geopolitical interests in being a global superpower? The Americans have been trying to stir Europe into forming their own armed forces capable of projection and dealing with regional threats since mid-90s. And it's generally preferable to be able to solve local crises on your own by having enough bargaining chips, rather than to wait for another power to throw their weight behind you and dictate the outcomes for you, usually reaching sub-optimal results from your perspective.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2016 21:23
|
|
|
Xerxes17 posted:Not having a military doesn't matter up until the point that it does, which is often quite sudden. This is very hard to understand because I am a post-cold war millennial who doesn't remember the last time actual wars happened outside the post-Soviet sphere and/or deserts
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2016 22:14
|
|
|
steinrokkan posted:The Americans have been trying to stir Europe into forming their own armed forces capable of projection and dealing with regional threats since mid-90s. And it's generally preferable to be able to solve local crises on your own by having enough bargaining chips, rather than to wait for another power to throw their weight behind you and dictate the outcomes for you, usually reaching sub-optimal results from your perspective. Regardless it is world policeman by choice and not for anyone else's benefit. Hardly a great reason, seems mostly like increased military spending gets you pressured into their military misadventures that aren't even local to Europe.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2016 22:30
|
|
|
blowfish posted:This is very hard to understand because I am a post-cold war millennial who doesn't remember the last time actual wars happened outside the post-Soviet sphere and/or deserts Uhh what war between standing armies happened in a non-soviet sphere and non-desert since 1945?
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2016 22:34
|
|
|
Man I have no idea whether Poland's military spending is reasonable or not so I'm gonna offer no opinion on that but arguing that armies are for a type of conflict that simply doesn't occur anymore seems a little silly in light of, you know, Ukraine.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2016 22:35
|
|
|
sparatuvs posted:Uhh what war between standing armies happened in a non-soviet sphere and non-desert since 1945? Falklands, India-Pakistan, Congo Crisis, Iceland-Britain fishing disputes (they deployed their navies, it counts!), Rhodesian Bush Wars... EDIT: You could probably include the entire breakup of Yugoslavia since that post-dates the Soviet Union. Oh, also probably Op. Just Cause (Panama) as well, though that's earlier. Davin Valkri fucked around with this message at 22:43 on Apr 13, 2016 |
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2016 22:37
|
|
|
Elukka posted:Man I have no idea whether Poland's military spending is reasonable or not so I'm gonna offer no opinion on that but arguing that armies are for a type of conflict that simply doesn't occur anymore seems a little silly in light of, you know, Ukraine. What good would having a huge standing army do Ukraine in 2014? More people to defect? Davin Valkri posted:Falklands, India-Pakistan, Congo Crisis, Iceland-Britain fishing disputes (they deployed their navies, it counts!), Rhodesian Bush Wars... I'll give you Falklands everything else is a civil war, a trade dispute, a desert war or an insurgency. Interstate conflict is just not a coercive tactic anymore, the losses will outweigh any gains because of nukes and hell total war. I think countries should have functioning militaries, it's just that the definition of a functioning military has changed. E: Yugoslavia, where the standing army was quickly overtaken by paramilitaries. I fail to see how this supports conflict between states in the conventional sense still being around. ass struggle fucked around with this message at 22:48 on Apr 13, 2016 |
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2016 22:44
|
|
|
India-Pakistan 1965 and 1971 was a civil war? Also I disagree with your assertion that a war taking place in a desert environment makes it somehow "not count". The Libya-Chad "Toyota War", the Arab-Israeli Wars (1967 and 1973, at least) and the Iran-Iraq War were no less "conventional" or "between state actors" just because the terrain was dusty sand instead of European farmland. Davin Valkri fucked around with this message at 23:03 on Apr 13, 2016 |
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2016 23:00
|
|
|
Davin Valkri posted:India-Pakistan 1965 and 1971 was a civil war? Blowfish implied that desert wars don't count. I was addressing him. Wars between politically isolated states still happen, but Poland is not politically isolated. My original point was: What happened in Ukraine will not happen in Poland if the current status quo in Europe is maintained, therefore, it is pretty silly to have a build-up for invasion when Russia would not be able or want to launch one, it's a security dilemma and best and a huge cash sink that could cripple other sectors at worst. Building stealth tanks and training boy scouts how to use AT grenades constructs a certain inevitability to a conflict that isn't going to happen unless NATO and the EU collapse. e: Also saying "people said russia would never annex crimea!!!" as an argument is a huge fallacy. "You are wrong because people have been wrong before" isn't really an argument. ass struggle fucked around with this message at 23:26 on Apr 13, 2016 |
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2016 23:18
|
|
|
sparatuvs posted:Poland is not politically isolated You just wait.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2016 23:31
|
|
|
You need to spend on army not because you need huge amount of soldiers and tanks that would cool on a parade, you need to spend so your army is fully professional, equipped, motivated and supplied. Institutionalized knowledge takes decades to form, and (as shown by Russia) a country can go from reasonable partner to hostile in a couple of years.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2016 23:32
|
|
|
Grouchio posted:Russian warplanes have aggressively zipped around a US destroyer a dozen times in the Baltic: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-36039703 here is the video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wq1wDMGA9DM I like that the U.S. Navy is fighting a soft power war in the comments.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2016 08:00
|
|
|
sparatuvs posted:Wars between politically isolated states still happen, but Poland is not politically isolated. My original point was: What happened in Ukraine will not happen in Poland if the current status quo in Europe is maintained, If it stops being maintained (I like the EU and the NATO, but I don't see them as the end of history, a thousand year Reich, if you will), Poland won't be guaranteed the 30 years of peace required to procure a semi-competent army. And if your vision of standing army = against European values were the political consensus in Europe, building an army by an Euro power in advance of the collapse of the status quo would be seen as undermining the credibility of the intergovernmental cooperation, and further accelerate the disintegration of the union. So resigning on armies as a legitimate state feature would just turn any state that for whatever reason found itself outside a collective security framework into a punching bag.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2016 09:07
|
|
|
No matter how great and real would a threat of Russia's invasion on Poland be - the Polish Defence Minister Antoni 'The Great Liquidator' Macierewicz is not creating an army for that reason. He's doing it for inner political purposes so this whole discussion is a bit useless in this case. He already tried to force the military to go into the streets against civilians once in the past but officers simply ignored the order so now he's creating his own force that wouldn't do that.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2016 09:56
|
|
|
After 1980' martial law no military commander would dare sending troops against protesters, even in auxiliary role. It's the quick road to having your name forever tarnished with the likes of Jaruzelski or Kiszczak. As a military commander I'd rather take my chances with military court. Of course paramilitary loons could get enough indoctrination to do that but that's close to Clancy chat.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2016 10:16
|
|
|
This is quite revelant to the military chat: As you can see, Polish military is about twice as big as rest of the EE countries armies combined, but still far cry from Russia. Even after two years of Russian scare, military budgets of most of eastern Europe remain pitiful.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2016 10:41
|
|
|
Q: If you see Poroshenko & Erdogan drowning, who will you rescue first? [applause] Putin: If someone decided to drown, it's hard to help. Putin: But we are ready to extend a helping hand to any of our partners, if they want it.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2016 10:49
|
|
|
Kiejzar posted:As you can see, Polish military is about twice as big as rest of the EE countries armies combined, but still far cry from Russia. Even after two years of Russian scare, military budgets of most of eastern Europe remain pitiful.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2016 10:49
|
|
|
50 deputies in the Ukrainian government voted against Groisman for Prime Minister.quote:Against the appointment of the Prime Minister of Ukraine Vladimir Groisman voted 50 deputies Also, https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/720541285191413760 HUGE PUBES A PLUS fucked around with this message at 11:26 on Apr 14, 2016 |
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2016 11:24
|
|
|
Kiejzar posted:
But as Poland you don't need a blue water navy, nuclear deterrent, global logistical reach or long range bomber/missile forces, AKA global power tax.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2016 11:57
|
|
|
alex314 posted:But as Poland you don't need a blue water navy, nuclear deterrent, global logistical reach or long range bomber/missile forces, AKA global power tax. I agree, and thanks to that Russia's advantage in ground and air forces is "only" around 4:1. Still more than enough unfortunately. There is no realistic scenario in which we Poles can defend ourselves from Russia in absence of NATO forces, or rather American ones. I rather doubt if other European militaries have any serious capability to intervene within a timeframe of few weeks it would take Russia to march to Oder River. That said, Russian invasion is completely impossible as long as NATO exists.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2016 12:41
|
|
|
Czech Republic will probably change official english name to Czechia soon. Which made me thinking: can Slav nations pick new name for "Slav"? Thanks to Germans it's too close to "slave" for comfort. "Slovians" is too close to slow..
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2016 13:32
|
|
|
alex314 posted:Czech Republic will probably change official english name to Czechia soon. Which made me thinking: can Slav nations pick new name for "Slav"? Thanks to Germans it's too close to "slave" for comfort. "Slovians" is too close to slow..
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2016 13:37
|
|
|
kalstrams posted:Slave in German is der Sklave. And "Slav" is "der Slawe", still just one letter off 
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2016 13:42
|
|
|
alex314 posted:Czech Republic will probably change official english name to Czechia soon. Which made me thinking: can Slav nations pick new name for "Slav"? Thanks to Germans it's too close to "slave" for comfort. "Slovians" is too close to slow.. Czechia sounds better and I like using it better than Czech republic so I hope they do it. There was quite the kerfuffle in the Polish Sejm today as during the voting for a new PiS justice to the Constitutional Tribunal a MP for Kukiz 15 admitted to voting for another MP for Kukiz 15 who wasn't present in the Sejm. While this is normal in the U.S. and U.K. it is strictly forbidden in Poland and is in fact a crime. She was then stupid enough to admit it to a reporter for TVN and tried to justify herself by saying he gave her permission. Kukiz 15 has reacted by kicking her out of the party and demanding her resignation as an MP and the MP she voted for has also been removed from the party (although they allowed him to resign) and will be removed from the Sejm Ethics Committee. The interesting thing is the MP who was absent is Kornel Morawiecki, one of Kukiz 15s better known and well respected members, a former Solidarity leader and a darling of the far right. I have to say I'm surprised Kukiz 15 has the integrity to do this, if it was two PiS MPs they would claim it never happened and try to sweep it all under the rug while calling the opposition Gestapo Communist Traitors.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2016 13:46
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 14, 2024 19:35 |
|
|
alex314 posted:And "Slav" is "der Slawe", still just one letter off
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2016 13:47
|
|