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It's still punishing the victim of the theft. Criminal #1 is whoever stole the gun. Criminal #2 is the drug addict who received the stolen gun, then decided to get into an armed confrontation with police. Him dying is unfortunate but better than a police officer or innocent bystander being shot. It is already illegal to 1) steal property 2) possess a firearm without a license 3) posses ammunition without a license 4) take drugs 5) saw a shotgun right down 6) receive stolen property 7) use a firearm in a threatening manner but hey let's arbitrarily decide that preventing licensed firearm owners owning more than 'x' guns would have stopped this trainwreck. If a dozen laws haven't worked maybe one more will do the trick. Since it targets some law abiding sucker instead of a violent criminal maybe it will get obeyed. also I miss my Trump av 
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Apr 14, 2016 10:20
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Is that Oglaf?
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Apr 14, 2016 10:22
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LibertyCat posted:but hey let's arbitrarily decide that preventing licensed firearm owners owning more than 'x' guns would have stopped this trainwreck. If a dozen laws haven't worked maybe one more will do the trick. Since it targets some law abiding sucker instead of a violent criminal maybe it will get obeyed. So unless a law exclusively impacts criminals you don't agree with it?
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Apr 14, 2016 10:25
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tithin posted:Is that Oglaf? Looks like Archer to me.
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Apr 14, 2016 10:25
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Zenithe posted:So unless a law exclusively impacts criminals you don't agree with it? There's a joke to be made about innocent bystanders but my hearts not in it
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Apr 14, 2016 10:26
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If you don't live on a farm or use your guns every day for work then keeping them at home seems pretty dumb anyway. There's a good reason people keep their money in a bank, seems like it would be sensible to do the same thing with guns.
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Apr 14, 2016 10:44
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open24hours posted:If you don't live on a farm or use your guns every day for work then keeping them at home seems pretty dumb anyway. There's a good reason people keep their money in a bank, seems like it would be sensible to do the same thing with guns. Keeping them at home can be good, as it can allow you to perform maintenance and cleaning etc that you might not be able to find time to do at the range. As long as its properly secured and stored, ammo stored etc. Not saying you need a billion guns at home or whatever, but I can see why people would prefer to keep them at home rather than at a range/club.
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Apr 14, 2016 10:48
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I know more or less nothing about guns, so excuse my ignorance if this is a dumb question, but do they need maintenance if you're not shooting them? As long as they're well oiled they should be able to sit almost indefinitely, right?
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Apr 14, 2016 10:57
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LibertyCat posted:It's still punishing the victim of the theft. if the guy hadn't had a gun to be stolen it wouldn't have happened so yes
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Apr 14, 2016 11:00
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Pretty much, but it can take a bit of time to clean and properly oil a gun, and you might have a place to do it at home where you know you won't misplace a piece or whatever. So get home from the range, spend however long cleaning, pack up, put in safe till next time. Not to mention some people reload their own ammunition etc at home too. In primary school my best friends dad would reload all his shotgun shells at home, but I think he kept most of his shotguns at the club for security purposes as they were very expensive shotguns (championship shooter). This was before 1996.
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Apr 14, 2016 11:01
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Seagull posted:if the guy hadn't had a gun to be stolen it wouldn't have happened so yes A friend of mine had a shooting pistol in a secure safe. Her hosed-up stepson and a criminal friend waited until she went on holiday and robbed the house including tearing out the gun safe because they knew where it was. They wanted to commit crime with the gun but were too dumb to get into the safe and left evidence everywhere so they were eventually caught. One gun or ten makes no difference to someone who wants one for free, but getting ten instead of just one is a greater threat to society so suck poo poo gun nuts.
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Apr 14, 2016 11:03
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Zenithe posted:So unless a law exclusively impacts criminals you don't agree with it? To be effective a law should mostly penalize criminals and cause minimal inconvenience to the innocent, not the other way around. Everyone agrees that Murder is Bad, aside from people who want to murder more than they are afraid of being murdered. Since murderous psychopaths are in the minority Murder is Illegal and almost everyone is happy. The criminals are the only ones begin disadvantaged and everyone else benefits. Banning Airsoft "guns" only pleases a small fraction of voters, only mildly annoys idiots who would otherwise somehow hurt others with a toy that fires plastic pellets, and disadvantageous potentially tens or hundreds of thousands of people who would have fun with them. The innocent are disadvantaged for very little benefit.
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Apr 14, 2016 11:10
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Wow, congratulations. You managed to frame a rights argument even dumber than the generic libertarian one.
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Apr 14, 2016 11:14
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GoldStandardConure posted:Keeping them at home can be good, as it can allow you to perform maintenance and cleaning etc that you might not be able to find time to do at the range. As long as its properly secured and stored, ammo stored etc. As an addition to that, having permanent storage of firearms and munitions at a range requires more than just a safe- you need a secure building to store them, security, insurance, etc. My local stores nothing on site, so all the range guns are kept by several senior members, licensed under their names. Means even if someone breaks in, they're not likely to get anything of value or danger open24hours posted:I know more or less nothing about guns, so excuse my ignorance if this is a dumb question, but do they need maintenance if you're not shooting them? As long as they're well oiled they should be able to sit almost indefinitely, right? Most recreational shooters do so every few weeks at least- there's a requirement of 6 competition shoots per year to maintain a license. General cleaning and oiling after a shoot is generally enough, since that'll keep it in a functional state for long enough. But the oils used aren't designed to last for years, and it doesn't fully stop moisture damage- for long term storage needs different lubricants and lots more of it, which means they need to be cleaned thoroughly before you use it ewe2 posted:A friend of mine had a shooting pistol in a secure safe. Her hosed-up stepson and a criminal friend waited until she went on holiday and robbed the house including tearing out the gun safe because they knew where it was. They wanted to commit crime with the gun but were too dumb to get into the safe and left evidence everywhere so they were eventually caught. One gun or ten makes no difference to someone who wants one for free, but getting ten instead of just one is a greater threat to society so suck poo poo gun nuts. Good point, this is why opsec is essential- if people don't know you have valuable stuff (lock box of cash, lots of expensive electronics, or firearms) and access to a house is difficult enough, then it can be a non-issue. It's why part of the process to getting a firearm licence is 'make sure you have basic security in place- shutters, deadbolt doors, motion lights, etc'. Which brings about the question- was posting a bunch of information from the firearm registry, information which apparently by law is not to be shared publicly outside of police and legal proceedings, the details where large numbers of firearms are located, really that good an idea? Especially if the arguement is 'what if criminals go after you for your guns'.
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Apr 14, 2016 11:15
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open24hours posted:If you don't live on a farm or use your guns every day for work then keeping them at home seems pretty dumb anyway. There's a good reason people keep their money in a bank, seems like it would be sensible to do the same thing with guns. What's the alternative? A Central Gun Repository would be magnet for violent criminals. Rob it and net a million guns. How would you do maintenance or adjustments (mounting scopes, cleaning, changing stocks, troubleshooting jamming parts etc - I've had to do all of these) without being able to take guns home? Where would you reload ammunition? Would you trust strangers not to smack your sensitive and expensive scope on something while handling it? What if you shoot at multiple ranges or go hunting - obviously you need to transport firearms. If you were up to no good you'd just sign them out and proceed with your evil plan. For target shooters at least guns are highly tuned, highly personalized machines. Also seriously where is my av from. Not knowing the context is driving me nuts.
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Apr 14, 2016 11:18
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Paingod556 posted:Which brings about the question- was posting a bunch of information from the firearm registry, information which apparently by law is not to be shared publicly outside of police and legal proceedings, the details where large numbers of firearms are located, really that good an idea? Especially if the arguement is 'what if criminals go after you for your guns'. But dude, hundreds of thousands of people might not get to play bang bang you're dead with shooty things.
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Apr 14, 2016 11:18
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LibertyCat posted:To be effective
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Apr 14, 2016 11:19
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Pickled Tink posted:This article should be required reading for everyone: Thanks for this.
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Apr 14, 2016 11:20
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Look, we've already established that I think dole bludgers(*) are beneath contempt and worth more as component parts, no need to reopen the welfare debate. (*)otherwise healthy people who could work but don't and drain money from society like a leach.
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Apr 14, 2016 11:22
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LibertyCat posted:What's the alternative? A Central Gun Repository would be magnet for violent criminals. Rob it and net a million guns. Most of that stuff could probably be done at the range, but I'm not saying it should be mandatory to keep your guns in some central location, I just think it would be a good idea. If I had something that criminals were desperate to get their hands on I wouldn't want to have to worry about security.
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Apr 14, 2016 11:23
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ewe2 posted:A friend of mine had a shooting pistol in a secure safe. Her hosed-up stepson and a criminal friend waited until she went on holiday and robbed the house including tearing out the gun safe because they knew where it was. They wanted to commit crime with the gun but were too dumb to get into the safe and left evidence everywhere so they were eventually caught. One gun or ten makes no difference to someone who wants one for free, but getting ten instead of just one is a greater threat to society so suck poo poo gun nuts. and I know someone who used his lawfully owned firearm to defend against a home invader. Aren't anecdotes great?
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Apr 14, 2016 11:24
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open24hours posted:Most of that stuff could probably be done at the range, but I'm not saying it should be mandatory to keep your guns in some central location, I just think it would be a good idea. If I had something that criminals were desperate to get their hands on I wouldn't want to have to worry about security. My old local has ~15,000 members. Trust me it would be impractical and the facilities to do so there would be prohibitively expensive. This is a solution in search of a problem. -- To clarify - do a google image search for 'reloading setup'. This is a precision, time-intensive process where a badly calibrated public machine would end in disaster. Clubs wouldn't want the liability, and there is no way having enough powder to deal with a thousand shooters on premises is a good idea. LibertyCat fucked around with this message at 11:30 on Apr 14, 2016 |
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Apr 14, 2016 11:25
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LibertyCat posted:worth more as component parts 
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Apr 14, 2016 11:28
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it's rare that I would agree with John Howard butquote:“People used to say to me, ‘You violated my human rights by taking away my gun’,” Mr Howard, who is regularly called upon by the US media to explain Australia’s gun laws, said.
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Apr 14, 2016 11:29
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LibertyCat posted:and I know someone who used his lawfully owned firearm to defend against a home invader. Aren't anecdotes great? Not an anecdote to me, I was the one who found the safe had gone and rang the cops. Big whoops to your shooty "friend" though. I guess hundreds of thousands are safe now?
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Apr 14, 2016 11:29
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LibertyCat posted:To clarify - do a google image search for 'reloading setup'. This is a precision, time-intensive process where a badly calibrated public machine would end in disaster. Clubs wouldn't want the liability, and there is no way having enough powder to deal with a thousand shooters on premises is a good idea. I doubt criminals are that interested in stealing a reloading setup though.
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Apr 14, 2016 11:32
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LibertyCat posted:To be ineffective a law should mostly penalize criminals and cause minimal inconvenience to the innocent, not the other way around. LibertyCat posted:Since psychopaths are in the minority*
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Apr 14, 2016 11:32
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BlitzkriegOfColour posted:Ftfy. How many cars do you pass within a meter of every week? If a non-trivial percentage of the population were actual dangerous maniacs you would be dead.
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Apr 14, 2016 11:34
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Tony Abbott hosed a dead onion.
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Apr 14, 2016 11:34
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LibertyCat posted:What's the alternative? A Central Gun Repository would be magnet for violent criminals. Rob it and net a million guns. LibertyCat posted:Look, we've already established that I think investment bankers(*) are beneath contempt and worth more as component parts, no need to reopen the corporate welfare debate. LibertyCat posted:How many cars do you pass within a meter of every week? If a non-trivial percentage of the population were actual dangerous maniacs you would be dead. Do you suppose that psychopaths are stupid? Well they might not tend to be geniuses, but they are cunning. If you knew anything about this at all, you would realise how incredibly stupid you are. Psychopaths are the people who successfully hide their intimate partner violence in public, and call the cops on the woman they just kicked in the spine and get an AVO out against her so that when she calls the cops on them, she's the one who gets in trouble. Not the people who run people over. BlitzkriegOfColour fucked around with this message at 11:39 on Apr 14, 2016 |
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Apr 14, 2016 11:35
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BlitzkriegOfColour posted:Just like a bank is a magnet for thieves, huh? And Fort Knox, too. Banks: It used to be the case. People don't tend to actually bring valuables into a bank anymore. Fort Knox: Sure who is going to pay for for Fort Knox levels of security for 3.5 million guns? And it will only protect the legal, registered ones, not the ones criminals already have, import or manufacture. ^^^ It is logically impossible to know how many people commit undetectable crimes so there is no point arguing about it. Luckily gun crimes (actual crimes that harm other people, not Farmer Brown forgetting to put the shells away one day) aren't exactly easy to hide. With 3.5 million guns in the country if gun owners were generally violent people the level of gun crime would be through the roof. LibertyCat fucked around with this message at 11:43 on Apr 14, 2016 |
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Apr 14, 2016 11:40
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LibertyCat posted:Banks: It used to be the case. People don't tend to actually bring valuables into a bank anymore. Have you looked at the bocsar heat maps? Firearm related offenses actually take place most often per 100k capita in areas that also have a high incidence of violence per 100k capita.
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Apr 14, 2016 11:48
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BlitzkriegOfColour posted:Have you looked at the bocsar heat maps? Firearm related offenses actually take place most often per 100k capita in areas that also have a high incidence of violence per 100k capita. what's your point? Also I should have said "licensed gun owners" in the above post. I'm not defending people who own guns illegally - altho since these people don't exactly shout it from the rooftops we have no idea what percentage of illegally owned guns are used in a violent crime. -- This is boring. I pledge not to talk about guns again here no matter what Shoebridge idiocy Cartoon posts. LibertyCat fucked around with this message at 12:08 on Apr 14, 2016 |
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Apr 14, 2016 11:51
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chris bowen needs to lose the beard no one likes a bearded politician
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Apr 14, 2016 12:13
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LibertyCat posted:This is boring. I pledge not to talk about guns again here no matter what Shoebridge idiocy Cartoon posts. Quick everybody, keep on posting about guns.
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Apr 14, 2016 12:14
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Where would I keep these guns safe? *flexes biceps*
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Apr 14, 2016 12:18
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Negligent posted:chris bowen needs to lose the beard Pognophobe. Wow, I just googled that to see if I remembered it right, and now know there is a Beard Liberation Front.
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Apr 14, 2016 12:18
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LibertyCat posted:
no, they just shoot it from them
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Apr 14, 2016 12:22
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Negligent posted:chris bowen needs to lose the beard tbh He looks PM material with it.
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Apr 14, 2016 12:27
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Is it just media management or is Kevin Andrews the only good high profile Labor leader at the moment?
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Apr 14, 2016 12:28
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