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Overwined posted:All wine is sentimentality. Everything about it. And I assume it is a function of your broken brain that you'd try to erect that absolutist, rock-stupid strawman. 
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Apr 12, 2016 05:29
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Overwined posted:All wine is sentimentality. I'm sorry for your broken brain, please don't spread your emotionless pedantry across the world, thanks in advance. Disagree completely. Most people want to buy a $10 bottle of wine and have it be consistent. This absurd romanticism is unrealistic and out of touch.
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Apr 12, 2016 05:29
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Jerome Louis posted:Disagree completely. Most people want to buy a $10 bottle of wine and have it be consistent. This absurd romanticism is unrealistic and out of touch. Most $10 bottles aren't under real cork.
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Apr 12, 2016 05:34
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Nor should they be
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Apr 12, 2016 05:36
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Jerome Louis posted:Nor should they be Nor is anyone at all arguing that. People drink wine not for consistency, they drink it because it's loving good. Yes, they want it to be consistently good, but more than that they just want it to be good. No one says, "Well this sure tastes like poo poo, but the same kind of poo poo I got in the last bottle, so I'm happy!" People's enjoyment is inviolate if genuinely held. If an organic cork gives someone a bit more enjoyment even when you consider the failure rate, then who the hell can tell them otherwise? Why would you even loving care?
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Apr 12, 2016 05:47
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PT6A posted:I can see his point on oxidation, since I do love oxidative flavours in some wines (though I have no idea if oxidation from an imperfect cork is the same as that which occurs intentionally during fermentation or aging). Still, I'd prefer winemakers just experiment with allowing different degrees of oxidation. Unfortunately, oxidation under bottle aging is different than oxidation pre-bottling. For whatever reason, the latter tend taste much more unpleasant. There are a few theories as to why, but the most credible to me is that when winemaking is oxidative, many of the aromatic polymers formed by oxidation are allowed to settle and then are racked off, but when the winemaking is reductive, there is an excess of molecules which are sensitive to oxidation so once any antioxidants (sulfur dioxide) in the wine are exhausted, the oxidation becomes much more obvious and unpleasant.
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Apr 12, 2016 06:24
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Overwined posted:We realize we can't argue with someone like that, because it's absolutely totally their own sovereign right to enjoy exactly whatever the gently caress they want. This doesn't seem to stop you from arguing, though. Also, newsflash, your discussion isn't doing a loving thing to sway anyone to your black and white point of view. Perhaps if your POV were more well-thought out and presented a single person might find it compelling. What I'm saying is that I'm a Stelvin advocate and I think you hurt the cause. And by the way, you've grossly misconstrued and/or ignored my words. I very clearly stated exactly what you do here: that everyone has the right to enjoy what they enjoy. It's the people who make claims like "screwcaps don't allow wines to breathe enough" and "screwcaps don't have a proven track record" and then use those falsehoods to justify their position who I'm attacking. My comment (completely different post here) on PNGB is snarkier in tone that I intended, granted, but it wasn't mean to be an attack on him—my apologies, PNGB, if you took offence—but rather a response to Stitecin's comment that education is the key to convincing people to adopt screwcaps. I'm saying that no amount of education will ever appeal to people like PNGB because their emotional attachment to cork is so strong that they'll happily accept corked and oxidised wine as consequence. Thus, it's not a failure of wine educators.
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Apr 12, 2016 06:44
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Overwined posted:All wine is sentimentality. Everything about it. What, even Manischewitz and Mad Dog 20/20? How about the stuff I made from my MRE dehydrated fruit ration in Africa?
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Apr 12, 2016 13:27
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Kasumeat posted:One can have a personal preference of cork over screwcap, and that's fine, you have every right. Just be big enough to admit that it's pure sentimentality. Don't pretend it's 1983 and the objective superiority of screwcaps is still under question, because it isn't. For the purpose of sealing wine bottles for short- or long-term storage, there is not a single advantage of cork over modern screwcaps. Keep your romance, I'm legitimately jealous of it. But don't pretend it's anything but, and don't pretend the faults of cork are advantages, nor the faults of screwcaps of thirty years ago still exist today. That's pretty much what it boils down to for me. Maybe some day I'll move to screwcap, but I like the feel of cork so for now I'd rather replace a bottle for someone now and then.
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Apr 12, 2016 16:53
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I'm mixed. I enjoy serving the wine under cork, but I hate it when I have to contact my reps for bottle pick up. At home? Literally don't care either way. If I get a bad bottle I just return it.
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Apr 12, 2016 21:23
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Wine sucks and I hate everything about it. /sarcasm I never thought about wine faults as being that big a deal until I started really getting into wine, now that I drink a few hundred bottles of wine a year and encounter maybe a dozen or more flawed bottles every year I care a lot more about it. I don't know what I feel about cork, I like the physical act of uncorking a bottle but I've never had the opportunity to buy or drink anything over like $35/bottle under screwcap so I'm not sure how I'd react to a $70+ screwcap emotionally, since I feel like I accept, intellectually, that stelvins are less prone to the failures corks exhibit. Someone send me a bottle of spendy Shiraz so I can find out 
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Apr 12, 2016 22:45
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Haha, just had to decant a 2000 Cali Cab when the cork esploded into bits. Well, double-decant actually just so it looks nice... plus it doesn't mind a little air. Hoisted on my own petard!
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Apr 14, 2016 05:54
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Kasumeat posted:And by the way, you've grossly misconstrued and/or ignored my words. I very clearly stated exactly what you do here: that everyone has the right to enjoy what they enjoy. It's the people who make claims like "screwcaps don't allow wines to breathe enough" and "screwcaps don't have a proven track record" and then use those falsehoods to justify their position who I'm attacking. My comment (completely different post here) on PNGB is snarkier in tone that I intended, granted, but it wasn't mean to be an attack on him—my apologies, PNGB, if you took offence—but rather a response to Stitecin's comment that education is the key to convincing people to adopt screwcaps. I'm saying that no amount of education will ever appeal to people like PNGB because their emotional attachment to cork is so strong that they'll happily accept corked and oxidised wine as consequence. Thus, it's not a failure of wine educators. Is a preference for inconsistency emotional in a way that your preference for (sterile) consistency? Why is my embrace of the wildness of wine irrational, but your preference for a consistent product rational? I'm certainly tolerant of faults in a way that you aren't, but cork is inconsistent in a way that goes far beyond the odd spoiled bottle, and I like to be surprised by joy. I might also point out that nobody here is arguing in favor of the positions you inveigle against.
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Apr 14, 2016 08:19
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That's kind of reaching a bit to posit that looking for consistency in a purchased product is a irrational behavior. Makes me think you're not very interested in having a real discussion. e: "Oh no, this wine tastes good every time I open a bottle! My life is sterile and boring!!!"
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Apr 14, 2016 13:18
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I'm with kasumeat on this, every time I buy a bottle with natural cork I just think that I'd rather have a twist cap. Someone commented asking why I care so much. Which is a valid point because at the end of the day I don't really. But I'm a food scientist and I work in the wine industry, wine is a natural product like any other food, but due to the mysticism (which I find a total turn off about wine culture) around wine, inconsistency is almost a cherished thing. I just don't understand that. Every time I see a wine maker choose to ignore what's best for the product in favor of natural cork, I just think it's a bit silly. I also don't understand the appeal to opening a bottle with natural cork. "Woohhaaaa taking that cork outta that bottle was so dang cool" - some guy that loves cork
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Apr 14, 2016 13:44
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How do you guys feel about bag in box, tetrapak, keg, or other non-bottle packaging? I mean in any circumstance; are you good with kegged wine at a restuarant, bag in box at home, or do you prefer bottles only?
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Apr 14, 2016 14:41
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I have a bag in a box Chinon on top of my fridge right now. And Murgos, my point is clearly not that a desire for consistency is irrational, but that Kasumeat's privileging of one position over the other is not warranted. Both the desire for consistency and the embrace of inconsistency are rational. Jerome, who makes better cheddar - Tillamook or Neal's Yard? It's an extreme example, vaguely dishonest, but it seems to me to illustrate the point just fine. To be called mystical about this is bewildering.
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Apr 14, 2016 15:36
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It's not just inconsistency really, it's that the flavors and aromas contributed from bad corks are gross. But if you like moldy basements then more power to you.
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Apr 14, 2016 16:08
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Jerome Louis posted:It's not just inconsistency really, it's that the flavors and aromas contributed from bad corks are gross. But if you like moldy basements then more power to you. Yeah, it seems like using a cork to achieve inconsistency between bottles and vintages is a rather artificial thing, ironically, when compared with the inconsistencies introduced because of vintage variation or natural winemaking techniques. You could achieve bottle variation by hiring a man to piss in every 20th bottle, but I don't know why you would want that.
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Apr 14, 2016 16:14
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Jerome Louis posted:I'm with kasumeat on this, every time I buy a bottle with natural cork I just think that I'd rather have a twist cap. Someone commented asking why I care so much. Which is a valid point because at the end of the day I don't really. But I'm a food scientist and I work in the wine industry, wine is a natural product like any other food, but due to the mysticism (which I find a total turn off about wine culture) around wine, inconsistency is almost a cherished thing. I just don't understand that. Every time I see a wine maker choose to ignore what's best for the product in favor of natural cork, I just think it's a bit silly. I also don't understand the appeal to opening a bottle with natural cork. "Woohhaaaa taking that cork outta that bottle was so dang cool" - some guy that loves cork I don't think it's about inconsistency so much as just the tremendous variability in experiencing a fine wine. Granted, if you're popping a $6 supermarket bottle for a weeknight dinner you probably don't care much about the experience - you just want some fermented grape juice that has alcohol in it and tastes ok. There's totally a place for that. Say you tried a small-scale producer's wine, though, maybe even met the person and talked with them about it. You liked the wine and liked the guy (or gal) so much that you got a half-case, and every so often you pop a bottle and spend some time seeing where the wine is going. Maybe it needs time/air to open up, maybe it's in a pissed-off phase, maybe it's at it's peak and it goes through a beautiful evolution over the course of the night. Is it really weird that someone into that kind of experience might not mind a little extra variability? I understand Kasumeat's viewpoint, and I don't think it's unreasonable at all, but it's not hard to see why some people might not mind, or might prefer cork. PNGB is definitely on the opposite side of the spectrum here, but there's a lot of loving wine out there - there's plenty of room for everyone to enjoy what they like.
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Apr 14, 2016 17:27
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idiotsavant posted:I understand Kasumeat's viewpoint, and I don't think it's unreasonable at all, but it's not hard to see why some people might not mind, or might prefer cork. PNGB is definitely on the opposite side of the spectrum here, but there's a lot of loving wine out there - there's plenty of room for everyone to enjoy what they like. In my mind for Kasumeat there is no spectrum, only black and white. To wit: Kasumeat posted:Aging a bottle under cork is a winemaker's fault. See also his various condescensions of those that might, in some circumstances, prefer an organic cork. He has a right to his opinion and, as I've said, I respect it because Stelvin closures to me make sense in a lot if not most circumstances. However, I do not respect nor do I think it's appropriate that he tries to strongarm this opinion onto others assuming they do not know or are willing to accept cork's flaws. Further reading: Some pages back in this thread when he claimed all red Bordeaux wine was terrible because it was all under-ripe--an absurd claim. Personally, it baffles me that someone that subsists on the appreciation of others would seek to exclude them. I'm a progressive guy. I like considering all new things and embracing them when they're more than just a fad--as Stelvin closures are very significant and much more than a fad. But my comments about the sentimentality of wine are speaking to the fact that the Stelvin v Cork debate bears absolutely no resemblance to debates like Combustion v Electric engines, or Metric v Imperial measure. Are Stelvin closures more "efficient" than organic cork? More than likely yes, but "efficiency" as a characteristic is pretty low down on my personal list of things I use to judge the merits of a wine. If someone has a pleasant sense memory of gently tricking an almost-disintegrated cork out of a 50 year old bottle of wine to find that somehow that wine survived the decades-long ordeal and moreover is a sublime experience, then they are experiencing one fascinating facet of wine appreciation. I personally feel that if you could somehow outlaw organic cork that you'd be taking something important away from the experience of wine and that those who oppose organic cork with the zeal of an absolutist probably have never really lived that experience or at the very least have no appreciation for it. And that's fine, but you can never take it away from me and I sincerely hope that an important minority hangs onto cork forever.
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Apr 14, 2016 18:11
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The crux of the matter is if the lower rate of flawed bottles under screw tops is worth it or not worth it compared to the better aging effects of natural cork. It's an excellent mystery. This seemingly simple (and possibly false) dichotomy has been clawed at by science for 30 years without a definitive answer, that should tell you that there is a non-negligible degree of emotion/UX/je ne sais quoi involved, and a huge amount of complexities in setting up a proper experiment. We do know ageing can benefit the quality of a wine, despite a war-like bottle attrition. Even the ancient Romans and Greeks praised aged wine over fresh. They didn't use corks as we do, but we have plenty of examples of extremely tasty wines aged under cork available to us now letting us now that it isn't a guaranteed failure. People are still drinking, and praising, cork sealed wines bottled under Napoleon III. I tried a quick google and couldn't find it, but there are long term experiments running with high end wines (first or second growth Bordeaux) ageing in a controlled environment. If the tasters can't tell them apart after 30 years, that should seal the deal. We shall see. One thing I'm wondering about, aren't wax dipped bottles impervious to oxygen? The wax doesn't breathe, does it? Wax paper sealing was the old way of keeping metal rust free for decades after all. Those bottles couldn't be directly measured against non-dipped bottles from another maker or vintage, but they could at least provide anecdotal evidence of wine exhibiting typical aged effects without being exposed to oxygen. Another thing is the mysteriously accurate dosage of oxygen the cork is able to give. Old wine often changes tremendously after being poured, coming to life after X minutes and then dying away after X+Y. But if you leave another bottle 10 more years, it will be slightly more developed, but still show the same behavior in the glass. Did those 10 years of ageing really provide enough oxygen for noticable change in chemistry, yet less oxygen than 10 minutes in the glass would provide? Is there more to the story than just oxygen perhaps? Are the anoxic processes providing material that can react with nitrogen as well? Are gasses travelling both ways between the ullage and the cork in a prone bottle? Or even one way? Is it more important that gasses escape than new gasses get in? It's like Hitchhiker's Guide, you can't set up an experiment and get a satisfying answer if you don't know which exact question you are asking and certainly not if it takes a shitload of time. It's a great mystery, one that science can solve but isn't likely to this week. I wouldn't mind getting a definitive answer to it. But if enjoying that mystery instead of being annoyed by it puts me in the emotional camp, here's looking at it.
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Apr 14, 2016 18:43
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To Ola, screwcaps can age as well as natural cork, but you have to tell them how. This is what I dislike. To Jerome, I don't like spoiled bottles. I've never argued that. I don't mind tolerating a few if that means that when I open two of the same thing at a dinner I can have two subtly different but equally sublime experiences. Stop dichotomizing.
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Apr 15, 2016 09:14
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Just passed the Advanced Sommelier Exam in Portland! The San Francisco Bay Area had a good showing this year, and 3 out of the 4 people in my study group passed. The one that didn't pass crushed service & theory but didn't make it on blind tasting. Nerves can be a killer...
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Apr 15, 2016 19:48
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Skinny posted:Just passed the Advanced Sommelier Exam in Portland! The San Francisco Bay Area had a good showing this year, and 3 out of the 4 people in my study group passed. The one that didn't pass crushed service & theory but didn't make it on blind tasting. Nerves can be a killer... Congratulations! The CMS blind tasting format is complete bullshit and it's ridiculous to have it be madatory to pass. I feel so sorry for everyone who fails their certification on that module. The idea that "you're not qualified to run my wine program because you couldn't tell Napa Cabernet from Merlot in 5 minutes" is just absurd.
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Apr 15, 2016 20:20
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Thanks! Luckily, the blind tasting format allows for some leeway since your final conclusions aren't quite as important as your breakdown & assessment leading up to it. Like math class, you show your work. At the Certified level, it's just one white & one red and the wines are pretty recognizable (I got Mosel Valley Riesling & California Pinot for my Certified exam). Advanced-level wines start to get pretty tough, though. There were six wines and I knew I nailed 4 of them, and my assessment of the others was strong enough to get me through with a good score even if I probably missed the conclusions. I agree that a somm is rarely put in a position on the floor where blind tasting matters. But I see why the Court emphasizes it. I've learned so much and I don't think my palate would be this sharp without all the tasting practice.
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Apr 15, 2016 21:52
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Skinny posted:I agree that a somm is rarely put in a position on the floor where blind tasting matters. But I see why the Court emphasizes it. I've learned so much and I don't think my palate would be this sharp without all the tasting practice. Exactly. I doubt anyone at the Court thinks you should be able to nail any wine in a brown bag that a guest brings into your restaurant, that's an absurd fantasy. It's an exercise for honing your palate. Congrats on passing the AS. You're the second (that I've noticed) to do so in this thread. I have 2 friends that sat and failed and 2 other friends that are studying and waiting for the Court to grant them a seat. It's a real accomplishment and the AS is most definitely where the CMS gets real. The passrates as I've heard them from IS to MS are about as follows: 95%/65%/35%/15%. That's a big step down from CS to AS.
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Apr 15, 2016 22:46
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Skinny posted:Thanks! Luckily, the blind tasting format allows for some leeway since your final conclusions aren't quite as important as your breakdown & assessment leading up to it. Like math class, you show your work. Look, I love blind tasting and I'm very good at it. I just don't think it should be given equal credence to theory and service. And here's what especially wrong with the CMS blind tasting: 1. There isn't nearly enough time to actually deductively taste 6 wines. You basically have to cowboy at the very least 3 of them, rattle off your tasting notes as fast as possible (which any real candidate could do without any wine in front of him/her once the wine is known), and then spend the little remaining time you have actually thinking about the wine or two that you didn't nail right off the bat. 2. The CMS brand themselves as the "restaurant" wine certification, but the blind tasting is more strongly focused on being "right" about the wines than any other sommelier organisation. A blind tasting for restaurant sommeliers should focus on assessing quality, value, and describing the wines accurately in language that laymen understand. 3. All of the wines are within a relatively narrow scope of "classic" styles. A lot of rote repetition to recognise these specifics wines is necessary. But it doesn't convey true blind assessment skills. You don't have to tell me the grapes, but show me that you can tell the difference between Fiano with and without lees contact; Dolcetto aged in neutral barrel vs. stainless steel; $20 vs. $40 Xinomavro. Seeing that a candidate can take more general blind tasting skills and apply them to unfamiliar wines is a lot more useful than seeing if they can recognise another glass of Cantena Malbec. 4. It completely ignores dessert, sparkling, and fortified wine, which is ridiculous. Overwined, those pass rates are way too high for Advanced and Master. I believe it's around 15% for Advanced. Master is harder to put a number on because you have multiple attempts to collect modules, but I believe it's less than 10% LIFETIME.
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Apr 15, 2016 23:16
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According to the Court it's somewhere between our two numbers. They report AS pass rates are 25-30%. They confirm that the pass rate for MS is around 10% but as you say that's allowing for retakes, although apparently you have 3 years to pass all the sections. While poking around their site I found that starting at the AS level you have to be in the "beverage hospitality" industry which is a perfectly vague term. I wonder how much that extends beyond restaurants and whether or not they've used that as grounds for denial of a seat.
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Apr 15, 2016 23:27
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Overwined posted:According to the Court it's somewhere between our two numbers. They report AS pass rates are 25-30%. They confirm that the pass rate for MS is around 10% but as you say that's allowing for retakes, although apparently you have 3 years to pass all the sections. Weird, either that Advanced figure is lifetime pass or it's taking into account the all-time historical average which is significantly higher than the pass rate for the past 5 years.
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Apr 15, 2016 23:34
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Kasumeat, I understand where you're coming from. It's definitely not a perfect system, but I've gotten a lot out of it. YMMV I actually didn't cowboy/instinctively nail any of the wines. It was all deductive. Lees, barrel-aging, malolactic, impact aromas, etc are all a vital part of the process. Doing it in time is a huge challenge, though. We blinded spirits & sparkling as part of the theory exam, but it is true that they are not part of usual lineup of blind wines. Pass rates have been very low the past few Advanced exams (11-16% or so). The Court made the application process very tough for 2016 in order to hopefully bring up the pass rate. This time around, we had 28 pass out of I think 70, which is a very good success rate. Skinny fucked around with this message at 00:00 on Apr 16, 2016 |
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Apr 15, 2016 23:58
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Congratulations! What city are you in? It sounds like you study with my friends.
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Apr 16, 2016 18:59
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Thanks! I'm based in San Jose. Our study group is a mix of people in SF itself plus some in the south bay.
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Apr 18, 2016 18:56
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I bought a ticket to a "Vive la France" event at my local Total Wine store. Not sure what to expect, only $20 though, so low commitment level. Maybe I will open the all Merlot Bordeaux I got before then...
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Apr 20, 2016 12:54
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There are far too many Pinot Grigios, they are drowning out the few decent examples, other Italian whites, and other light white wines in general. Who do I blame for this plague? Is it a production issue, an importation issue, or a stocking issue?
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Apr 22, 2016 01:20
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Consumers, for drinking them. The truth is a lot of people don't like wine, they like moderately alcoholic lemon water.
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Apr 22, 2016 02:41
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Kasumeat posted:Consumers, for drinking them. The truth is a lot of people don't like wine, they like moderately alcoholic lemon water. I literally said exactly this two nights ago to my servers.
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Apr 22, 2016 04:24
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Kasumeat posted:Consumers, for drinking them. The truth is a lot of people don't like wine, they like moderately alcoholic lemon water. I was about to say, "you're right, but why do we need so many different varieties?" and then I thought about the average beer selection at a liquor store or pub. "Which variety of lovely lager would you like today?" So, yeah, you're right, and I guess the rest is a triumph of marketing.  Is there a wine equivalent of overwrought IPAs -- something flavourful, occasionally done well, but frequently unbalanced and increasingly generic?
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Apr 22, 2016 05:16
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PT6A posted:Is there a wine equivalent of overwrought IPAs -- something flavourful, occasionally done well, but frequently unbalanced and increasingly generic? Yes, modern New World red wine. Malbec, Cabernet, red blends, take your pick.
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Apr 22, 2016 05:49
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Kasumeat posted:Yes, modern New World red wine. Malbec, Cabernet, red blends, take your pick. Ha, I should've been able to come up with that myself. I would argue we can throw oaked-to-gently caress Chardonnay on that pile too. Like new world reds, there are some good examples (even if they aren't all necessarily my cup of tea) but there's a lot of (surprisingly expensive) crap too. At least Pinot Grigio had the consideration to distinguish itself from Pinot Gris. We get no such indulgence from most of the reds.
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Apr 22, 2016 05:56
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