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To briefly touch back on UC and sanction-chat I am currently dealing with an impending sanction that is now approaching the tribunal stage. I was wondering if anyone had any experience with the tribunal and what I could expect from it. Also any advice would be much appreciated. Edit: Oh erm, 1066 massive wave of immigrants ruin our country or some such toss
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Apr 14, 2016 15:02
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Fans posted:So people are free to pile in on any protest they think might get out of hand? As someone who's been to a fair number of protests I'm not exactly keen on that one. I was making a joke Gonzo McFee posted:I'll kick a fist up them. is this even possible?
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Apr 14, 2016 15:10
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JFairfax posted:I was making a joke People in this thread make jokes!!?!??!
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Apr 14, 2016 15:12
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Fans posted:People in this thread make jokes!!?!??! occasionally
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Apr 14, 2016 15:13
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Fans posted:The knowledge that the Police could taser me if I get out of line is very different to the police tasering me just to make sure I don't get out of line. Ditto Vigilantes. Right, and someone threatening to blow my head off is different to someone actually doing so (if nothing else, for the capacity to duck) but something more violent existing does not make a violent act non-violent. You would involve the police in both instances, for example. And we give the state the monopoly on legitimate violence under the assumption they will use it to protect people who need it. If they are failing to do so (for whatever reason, I suspect it's mostly practical reasons) the right of legitimate violence reverts back to us (see self defence).
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Apr 14, 2016 15:15
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JFairfax posted:I would punch a fascist No don't !!!
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Apr 14, 2016 15:15
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Dabir posted:And if the antifa didn't show up, those poor misguided lads looking for a fight would be led to a much less fair one by the people who do give a poo poo about racial politics, keep up. Yeah that's probably the case but what I'm saying is not to make the anitfa out to be some sort of noble, defensive force for good as a lot of them are exactly the same and just looking for a scrap.
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Apr 14, 2016 15:17
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But they aren't exactly the same. This isn't hard
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Apr 14, 2016 15:21
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They aren't nazis though.
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Apr 14, 2016 15:27
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They're both scum, but one kind is nicer to migrant families (maybe???).
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Apr 14, 2016 15:28
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StoneOfShame posted:Yeah that's probably the case but what I'm saying is not to make the anitfa out to be some sort of noble, defensive force for good as a lot of them are exactly the same and just looking for a scrap. What would antifa do if they didn't have the fash to scrap with? The worst I can think of is that they might throw things at a bank which has been emptied of people in advance and has everything insured, maybe. I've never seen antifa protest in the absence of fascists. This isn't about some inherent nobility of violence, it's just more preferable than unopposed fascist marches. In order of idealism to pragmatism, the ideal is not having fascists in the first place, followed by police being an organ of the public good willing to extend themselves massively to cover everyone from the violence that accompanies fascist marches, followed by community watch groups willing to put their life and limb on the line to counter marauding fascists, followed by antifa counter groups, followed by individuals having to defend themselves against unfair odds. It's not near the top of ideal situations, but it's a realistic reaction as long as these marches happen with the wilful aim to cause violence.
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Apr 14, 2016 15:30
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Serotonin posted:But they aren't exactly the same. This isn't hard I know they are not exactly the same, I know one is preferable to the other as a concept. I'm simply saying that I get the distinct impression that members of the antifa are more interested in having a scrap than they are being ideologically anti-fascist and they have just happened to pick the right side to scrap with, they could have easily picked something else that's what I meant by the same not that those two groups in the absence of who they are currently fighting would pick the same targets to move onto next. Ideally we wouldn't have any young folk feeling the need to go out and kick gently caress out of someone just to give their lives a bit of meaning and belonging but I also acknowledge that isn't going to happen. Also of course we'd rather the antifa groups to 'do better' because they are probably not going to turn on minorities afterwards but that doesn't mean they should be viewed as good or something to be encouraged. Perhaps I should have been more precise. Edit:^^^ Yeah, I'd largely agree with you there actually, except that of course under the antifa banner they won't be seen in the absence of fash protests but you can bet that they would share people with those who start smashing up buildings on various anti-government demonstrations. I also didn't mean they all view it as a nobility of violence thing but I definitely think there are people in the antifa who view themselves like that. StoneOfShame fucked around with this message at 15:36 on Apr 14, 2016 |
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Apr 14, 2016 15:31
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StoneOfShame posted:Yeah that's probably the case but what I'm saying is not to make the anitfa out to be some sort of noble, defensive force for good as a lot of them are exactly the same and just looking for a scrap. In what way are people who want to murder minorities for existing and the people who want to stop the aforementioned people from murdering minorities "exatly the same"? Like, have any of you liberals ITT ever stopped and thought to yourself "hey, I'm literally defending nazis here" and maybe rethought your position a bit? Fans posted:If this was true they wouldn't even bother with protests. Because they want to gather a big gang and psyche themselves up so that they'll have an easier time of beating up minorities. And they bother with protests because of the simple fact that if you organize an event with the description "let's all gather and beat some darkies" it might even get shut down by Old Bill beforehand, whereas organizing an event and calling it a political protest does not.
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Apr 14, 2016 15:33
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Cerebral Bore posted:In what way are people who want to murder minorities for existing and the people who want to stop the aforementioned people from murdering minorities "exatly the same"? I've answered the first point above, I've also not defended Nazis more critiqued the behavior of the antifa, I don't think anyone is literally defending Nazis except the odd Nazi poster.
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Apr 14, 2016 15:39
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Cerebral Bore posted:Like, have any of you liberals ITT ever stopped and thought to yourself "hey, I'm literally defending nazis here" and maybe rethought your position a bit? I hate this kind of bullshit. Who is defending Nazis? Some people are criticising some Antifa for using some of the same methods as the fascists. This is a legitimate criticism
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Apr 14, 2016 15:45
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Tigey posted:I hate this kind of bullshit. Who is defending Nazis? Some people are criticising some Antifa for using some of the same methods as the fascists. I don't think "beating up fascists" is the method that most fascists use
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Apr 14, 2016 15:45
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Bedshaped posted:Violence legitimizes them and gives them martyrs. No, violence delegitimizes them with their potential support. How many non-fash people do you think know or care about fash 'martyrs'? But if they held orderly, peaceful protests, it would be no time at all before they had full Daily Mail backing.
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Apr 14, 2016 15:46
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MrL_JaKiri posted:I don't think "beating up fascists" is the method that most fascists use They seem pretty good at getting into fights with themselves if nobody turns up though
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Apr 14, 2016 15:46
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Tigey posted:I hate this kind of bullshit. Who is defending Nazis? Some people are criticising some Antifa for using some of the same methods as the fascists. No, it isn't. You're criticizing antifa for standing up to the nazis. This is literally defending the fash, as you seem to think that they have a right to run roughshod over their percieved enemies, which is the logical endpoint of nobody standing up to them. StoneOfShame posted:I've answered the first point above, I've also not defended Nazis more critiqued the behavior of the antifa, I don't think anyone is literally defending Nazis except the odd Nazi poster. See above. If you're advocating poo poo that directly leads to the nazis being able to march unopposed, you're sure as poo poo defending them.
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Apr 14, 2016 15:49
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If you are willing to bash the fash and do so you're, by default, supporting anti-fash ideology, whether you like it or not. There is no political discourse to be had with them. None. Their particular ideology was crushed by an entire world effort and they still haven't got the loving message. If the Nuremburg trials weren't enough to convince them that their particular ideology is perhaps flawed, and if they didn't quite get the message when one of their idols ended up upside down on a butcher's hook with his cock in his mouth then it's unlikely that sitting down to have a nice cuppa with them is going to change their minds.
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Apr 14, 2016 15:49
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Guavanaut posted:Thing is, we know exactly what fascists would do if they didn't have antifa to scrap with, they'd go after people who didn't want to be involved, regardless of their ability to defend themselves. It's going to be difficult to convince your average white liberal that a bunch of people fighting in the streets is the best solution to a problem. There must be a non-violent or political move that can achieve the eradication of the fascist movement in Britain. Outright banning like Germany do?
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Apr 14, 2016 15:49
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The best part of Private Eye, the very simplest means to call out bullshit on people. Even though everyone of us "low-achievers" already knew this loving blatant-rear end fact.
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Apr 14, 2016 15:50
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Spangly A posted:the political mainstream of europe aren't so much consistently ultra-right wing as they are consistently ultra-loving stupid and thus ideas like minimum wage for an economic union just fly them by I think trying to institute an EU minimum wage right not would not only get the UK laughed at again (though at least from the "oh, they've gone to being idealistic children rather than petty children, isn't that cute" perspective, so it is an improvement), and if it didn't and somehow passed, it would be disastrous. Mind you, this is in the short term. In the long term, I think it is absolutely the way to go. But by long term, I mean many decades. The costs of living throughout the EU are way too different for this to work. Poorer countries have no hope of supporting a UK minimum wage. At all. You could argue that multinational companies could afford it, but, in my Eastern-European experience, the multinationals tend to pay way better than local companies. And if they had to give people in Poland the same wage as in the UK, they would not bother being in multiple countries at the same time, which would be quite bad for the countries where foreign investment is a significant percentage of GDP and employment. Giving people in the UK the same minimum wage as would give you a decent standard of living in Romania would be, well, absurd. It is what the EU is heading towards, very slowly. But you have to even out the cost of living and living standards first. Which is where things like the infrastructure funds come in. They do good work, but it takes time. And it takes longer if countries like the UK are crybabies about it, as it has been since the 70s. If there was political will within the wealthy EU countries to speed up the process, it could be sped up, but I don't think a government campaigning on the platform of raising taxes and spending the money outside of your country would be very successful.
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Apr 14, 2016 15:50
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Bedshaped posted:There must be a non-violent or political move that can achieve the eradication of the fascist movement in Britain. Outright banning like Germany do? That's violent (it's just the violence is now state-sponsored) and hasn't worked anyway.
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Apr 14, 2016 15:52
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Bedshaped posted:It's going to be difficult to convince your average white liberal that a bunch of people fighting in the streets is the best solution to a problem. You seem to be big on non-violence. Then let me ask you this: Would you (and your fellow likeminded liberals) be willing to go out and stand square in the way of a nazi march and tell them that what they're doing is unacceptable and that you're there to stop them and stay there blocking their march even when they start grinding your face into the pavement (which they very likely will do)?
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Apr 14, 2016 15:53
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Bedshaped posted:There must be a non-violent or political move that can achieve the eradication of the fascist movement in Britain. Outright banning like Germany do? I see you're not familiar with Pegida.
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Apr 14, 2016 15:54
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Tigey posted:This is a legitimate criticism You saying it's legitimate criticism does not suddenly make it so, if you feel it is legitimate then perhaps you could make some cogent points to support the view that beating the poo poo out of fash to stop them attacking minority groups is a bad thing.
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Apr 14, 2016 15:56
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Just so I'm on the right page here, do people who think looking for fights with fascists also support bombing Syria? Because this thread took a weird turn into "Violence is a workable solution to extremism" all of a sudden.
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Apr 14, 2016 15:56
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Oh dear me posted:No, violence delegitimizes them with their potential support. How many non-fash people do you think know or care about fash 'martyrs'? But if they held orderly, peaceful protests, it would be no time at all before they had full Daily Mail backing. Out of curiosity, what do the antiantifa people ITT think of the Battle of Cable Street? You know, when the literal non-neo Nazis had actual Daily Mail backing and were trying to march through a Jewish neighbourhood and got their arses handed to them. I personally am quite proud that that happened, I mean there's a blue plaque and everything for it now, but maybe that's because I'm not a liberal. Edit: I would also support bombing Syria if that meant 'accurately bombing Isis and only Isis' because gently caress those guys. The problem there that makes it a poor idea in actuality is the collateral damage, not the basic idea.
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Apr 14, 2016 16:00
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Fans posted:Just so I'm on the right page here, do people who think looking for fights with fascists also support bombing Syria? Because this thread took a weird turn into "Violence is a workable solution to extremism" all of a sudden. no the ones who do not want to fight fascists want to bomb syria
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Apr 14, 2016 16:01
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Fans posted:Just so I'm on the right page here, do people who think looking for fights with fascists also support bombing Syria? Because this thread took a weird turn into "Violence is a workable solution to extremism" all of a sudden. This is really dumb and you know it, because nobody here is saying that you can beat the ideology out of the fash. What we're saying is that when the fash gang up and go out to stomp on some people for existing it's possible to prevent them from doing so. Or to spell it out for you: Violence is an appropriate reaction to protect yourself or a third party from getting stomped on by a nazi march, because this is a simple problem. Dropping some bombs and calling it a day in the hopes of stopping a huge and extremely complex civil war is not. It shouldn't be hard to see the difference here.
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Apr 14, 2016 16:03
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Cerebral Bore posted:
And as I've said a few times, I don't mind this. But there's a difference between "I'm going to stop them from stomping on anybody" and "I am here to hit fascists"
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Apr 14, 2016 16:05
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Fans posted:Just so I'm on the right page here, do people who think looking for fights with fascists also support bombing Syria? Because this thread took a weird turn into "Violence is a workable solution to extremism" all of a sudden.
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Apr 14, 2016 16:06
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Violence is a perfect solution to any problem as long as you can do a through enough job. Which is why it is also important to guard against the possibility. I would very much enjoy the slaughter of Tories and Tory voters. And I imagine in their hearts they think the same about us plebs. Society and laws get in the way of all that good old fashioned natural urge to bash things to a pulp. Peace and the ability to play Dark souls 3 is ultimately a better long term experience. Still gonna dream of burying an axe in the face of anyone right of Marx.
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Apr 14, 2016 16:08
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Fans posted:And as I've said a few times, I don't mind this. But there's a different from "I'm going to stop them from stomping on anybody" and "I am here to hit fascists" Have you ever been to an antifa demo or even asked any antifa people about their motivations? Because at this point it seems that this distinction and the category of people whose motivation is solely "I am here to hit fascists" mostly exists in your head. EDIT: And even then, stopping the fach from stomping on people often requires that you hit them, as has been explained to you multiple times already.
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Apr 14, 2016 16:11
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feedmegin posted:Edit: I would also support bombing Syria if that meant 'accurately bombing Isis and only Isis' because gently caress those guys. The problem there that makes it a poor idea in actuality is the collateral damage, not the basic idea. People join ISIS for non-ideological reasons, you know, like them being the only source of income in areas we've completely obliterated.
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Apr 14, 2016 16:13
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Cerebral Bore posted:Have you ever been to an antifa demo or even asked any antifa people about their motivations? Because at this point it seems that this distinction and the category of people whose motivation is solely "I am here to hit fascists" mostly exists in your head. Maybe I'm taking people in this thread more seriously than I should be, fair enough.
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Apr 14, 2016 16:14
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Cerebral Bore posted:No, it isn't. You're criticizing antifa for standing up to the nazis. This is literally defending the fash, as you seem to think that they have a right to run roughshod over their percieved enemies, which is the logical endpoint of nobody standing up to them. Insisting that violence by non-state sanctioned groups is the 'only' way to oppose fascists is an opinion, and one you are entitled to. Insisting that anyone who questions this is opinion is "literally defending the fash, as you seem to think that they have a right to run roughshod over their percieved enemies,", is a fallacy. Counter-protests is one method of opposing them, and I highly doubt anyone here disagrees with that. Engaging in self-defence if the fash attack you or innocent bystanders is another, and again nobody reasonable would disagree that this is legitimate. Organising and attending counter-protests with the specific aim of engaging in political violence against the fash (to intimidate, discredit, or just release violent urges), is however something very different, and one which has some uncomfortable parallels with the acts of the fascists themselves. Criticising Antifa who act in that manner IS legitimate for that reason, and claiming that such criticism is a literal defence of fascists is wrong. DesperateDan posted:You saying it's legitimate criticism does not suddenly make it so, if you feel it is legitimate then perhaps you could make some cogent points to support the view that beating the poo poo out of fash to stop them attacking minority groups is a bad thing.
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Apr 14, 2016 16:14
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StoneOfShame posted:I know they are not exactly the same, I know one is preferable to the other as a concept. I'm simply saying that I get the distinct impression that members of the antifa are more interested in having a scrap than they are being ideologically anti-fascist and they have just happened to pick the right side to scrap with, they could have easily picked something else that's what I meant by the same not that those two groups in the absence of who they are currently fighting would pick the same targets to move onto next. Ideally we wouldn't have any young folk feeling the need to go out and kick gently caress out of someone just to give their lives a bit of meaning and belonging but I also acknowledge that isn't going to happen. Time to introduce a contained area where they can give their lives more meaning. 
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Apr 14, 2016 16:15
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feedmegin posted:Out of curiosity, what do the antiantifa people ITT think of the Battle of Cable Street? If it wasn't for Cable Street I literally wouldn't be here. My great grandfather met my great grandmother during it. She was a nurse who showed up to make sure the protestors got help if they were injured. Thankfully nobody needed her services because the fash were quaking in their jackboots after having saucepans chucked at them by old ladies.
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Apr 14, 2016 16:20
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