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Crazy Ted posted:Of course the quality of a league is going to stall when you add teams. That's not why you add teams. The major U.S. sports leagues have gone through that exact issue every time they expanded. The NCAA was faced with the same argument when it expanded the Men's Basketball Tournament to 64 teams. The reason you add teams is that it's a gamble where you're betting that more teams in more markets will lift viewership figures and general interest, with a payoff in terms of money and quality down the line. I think this is exactly right. On the most absurd end of the spectrum, we could have amazing quality if we reduced the league to two all-star teams that played each other 34 times a season. Obviously that wouldn't be compelling, so it's okay to have more teams even if the "quality" gets diluted a little. The more teams -> interest -> money continuum is spot on as well. Re-read "The Beckham Experiment" and realize that, less than ten years ago, the league minimum salary was $12,900. Around 2007, FC Dallas had a defender named Alex Yi, who quit professional soccer to go back to college because he wasn't making any money. Of course there is an increase in quality once "professional soccer player" is actually a career instead of a hobby you earn poverty wages for. At the end of the day it's a math problem. There are enough talented athletes in the United States to support 32 MLB teams, 32 NFL teams, and however many NBA teams. In the NFL and NBA particularly, virtually all of those players are American. It's no stretch of logic at all to say that more teams will generate more interest, which will generate money, which will generate quality.
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Apr 15, 2016 11:43
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Also maybe they're building for the future. Get more kids interested in soccer because there's a local team, then they'll become paying fans (or players) when they're older. Most americans don't know good soccer from bad, it's not like premier games are shown on network tv much (or ever?), we just want a few goals a game and some cool cheering.
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Apr 15, 2016 12:19
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effectual posted:Most americans don't know good soccer from bad, it's not like premier games are shown on network tv much (or ever?), we just want a few goals a game and some cool cheering.
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Apr 15, 2016 12:41
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players still forgo the dumb superdraft to stay in college to plateau their skills for 4 years. there has also been some form of pro/am league in this country for multiple decades prior to mls, yet for some reason domestic interest or skill in the sport didn't explode because of the sheer american population (there's 32 mlb teams, you know. more = better than). who honestly loving knows of this league is profitable outside of tricking oil sheiks into paying several million to slap an offensive team wherever the gently caress someone throws a population density dart. the league barely lets it publicly known how players are assigned to whatever respective team. lol if they'll provide adequate looks into their money books. tv ratings are still abysmal, $25 ticket sales go to paying down both kaka's salary as well as whatever poo poo defender that also throws on a purple jersey come summer saturdays, and who loving knows the revenue merchandising brings in outside of the few weirdo supporter group aficionados who only care about the spectacle of how awesome mls fans are over the poo poo garbage league they cosplay. Fucitol fucked around with this message at 14:01 on Apr 15, 2016 |
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Apr 15, 2016 13:59
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effectual posted:Most americans don't know good soccer from bad, it's not like premier games are shown on network tv much (or ever?), we just want a few goals a game and some cool cheering. NBCSN has better coverage of the Premier League than any network in England, and I don't think Im exaggerating. You can watch any game live with no restrictions if you have subscribe to NBCSN, which is standard in a lot of cable sports packages. I don't like all these expansion teams because we're moving farther and farther away from each team playing each other twice and that's it. There are teams that I'll never see play in person despite going to a lot of games, and I find that annoying. I know we're well past the point of no return on this but it's pretty disheartening, especially when the league signs a superstar that is only every going to play in four or five places.
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Apr 15, 2016 14:17
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effectual posted:Most americans don't know good soccer from bad, it's not like premier games are shown on network tv much (or ever?), we just want a few goals a game and some cool cheering. The Premier League, gets better coverage in the US than MLS and NBC paid lots of money for that privilege. Liga MX pulls higher numbers in the United States than the MLB. Both NBC's market for English Premier League and Liga MX's dwarf MLS. There's obviously a massive market for the sport in the country but not MLS, because the quality is terrible and has not been improving. Maybe Garber and MLS could hide behind "Oh well Americans aren't really interested" as the excuse for why the league runs like a clown show 10 years ago but these days neither excuse stands up to scrutiny, NBC isn't spending piles of money to air games at 7:30 in the morning because there is no market for it, Liga MX doesn't have more viewers than the MLB just because my Tios are watching it. People aren't tuning into MLS or showing up to games because the TV Contracts are garbage and the product on the field is not good, stagnant at best, and possibly regressing. Expansion was dumb the last time they did it and its dumber now. Either Garber is an idiot or massive injections of expansion dollars are the only thing keeping this turd above water. No good reason to expand to loving Detroit, just lmao Ciprian Maricon fucked around with this message at 15:52 on Apr 15, 2016 |
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Apr 15, 2016 15:49
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effectual posted:Also maybe they're building for the future. Get more kids interested in soccer because there's a local team, then they'll become paying fans (or players) when they're older. Americans know that Barcelona and Man City and Munich all play way better soccer than MLS. It's crystal clear that MLS is many many levels below the quality of those teams. The basic, fundamental skill level of MLS players is so far below that it's obvious to even non-soccer fans. And the minimum salary for an MLS player is still $62,500. Can you imagine being a rookie on SJ Earthquakes or NYRB or any team that isn't in the loving rust belt? So glad I dedicated my whole life to to make a minimum living salary.
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Apr 15, 2016 15:50
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Think about how MLS doesn't have enough MLS quality players for it's own league. That says a lot. Wait until we have Atlanta and Minnesota and Miami in the league.. talk about spreading the talent thin.
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Apr 15, 2016 16:49
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Best goal (according to MLS) of all time from each team, Tampa, Miami and Chivas USA included https://twitter.com/MLS/status/720969959040356352
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Apr 15, 2016 17:00
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Gigi Galli posted:NBCSN has better coverage of the Premier League than any network in England, and I don't think Im exaggerating. You can watch any game live with no restrictions if you have subscribe to NBCSN, which is standard in a lot of cable sports packages. MLS is the top league for most of a literal continent. At that scale, you can have "dual round robin single table" or you can have "at least reasonably local teams across the country", and frankly if you're trying to jumpstart domestic interest in this sport the latter is the better choice. Since American sports club owners in general are unfortunately not the sort to throw millions of dollars into a pit for vanity's sake, you only get a better quality on-field product by spending more money, and you only get more money to spend through better national TV contracts, and you only get better TV contracts and better TV coverage with a better quality on-field product (which is kind of a catch 22) or through covering more markets with at least the baseline Support Local Soccer interest level. So expansion it is, because it's a way to sidestep that vicious circle towards Better Play. Besides, even for the Secret Ted Acolytes expansion can theoretically serve as a backdoor towards pro-rel once the league gets to an even more unwieldy number of teams.  I only kinda buy the talent dilution argument, except in the narrow sense that North American domestic players are by and large terrible and there aren't enough good ones to go around, but that will only improve with a) time, and b) widespread domestic interest in this sport and a pathway to professional play that doesn't require taking a gamble on moving to Europe at age 14. Enough other people play this sport in places where even MLS salaries look good (at least they arrive on time and the checks don't bounce) that there will always be available talent to fill at least the international spots on rosters and put a tolerable product on the field. Really all of these things have improved in the ten years I've been watching this league, just not fast enough to meet Garber's dumb timeline, but that's honestly fine - better to take the time to build something enduring than to flame out again shooting for the moon. The Premier League took over a century to become the behemoth we know today, and soccer doesn't have to be The Best In The World to be worthwhile, especially soccer in time zones/times of year where there isn't much other soccer to watch. I don't understand why American fans get So Goddamn Angsty about this. Dallan Invictus fucked around with this message at 17:31 on Apr 15, 2016 |
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Apr 15, 2016 17:26
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Dallan Invictus posted:...even MLS salaries look good (at least they arrive on time and the checks don't bounce)... It's a shame we couldn't get something like this on the new logo.
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Apr 15, 2016 17:31
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Dallan Invictus posted:there will always be available talent to fill at least the international spots on rosters and put a tolerable product on the field. I wonder how much getting rid of the International spot cap would help. Obviously drastically raising the salary cap would help a lot more, but changing the rules so that a team could go 100% non-US/Canada would let teams bring in more decent quality players to replace the guys making minimum wage right now.
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Apr 15, 2016 17:53
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SeaTard posted:I wonder how much getting rid of the International spot cap would help. Obviously drastically raising the salary cap would help a lot more, but changing the rules so that a team could go 100% non-US/Canada would let teams bring in more decent quality players to replace the guys making minimum wage right now. It would absolutely improve the quality of play, but the league will never go for it (and the USSF certainly won't, to the extent that the USSF can restrain MLS at all), because freezing out domestics simply because they're bad goes against half the reason the league exists in the first place. Similarly, merely raising the salary cap while keeping the international cap in place wouldn't help nearly as much as everyone thinks, because there aren't enough good domestic players to lure back from overseas to make a difference (assuming they would even come back without Bradley/Altidore scale overpaying), and as long as two-thirds of your roster has to be domestic that's going to be a bigger restraint on the quality of your team than the salary cap could ever be. Basically the problem is that MLS is a project to foster domestic interest in soccer (as long as the NHL can outdraw the Premier League/Liga MX on broadcast TV there is still work to do on that front) and to improve the quality of American players by giving them somewhere to play consistently and a pathway to develop, and not only do both of these goals take a long time but they actively slow down the goal of "improve quality of play ASAP". Dallan Invictus fucked around with this message at 18:15 on Apr 15, 2016 |
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Apr 15, 2016 18:13
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Liga MX already gets more viewers than the NHL though, Liga MX outdraws cable (non PPV) UFC events. MLS has no excuse for its awful viewer numbers except the terrible quality of the play on the field and lmao at the idea that getting a team in the festering Wastelands of Detroit would remedy that issue.
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Apr 15, 2016 18:38
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Ciprian Maricon posted:Liga MX already gets more viewers than the NHL though, Liga MX outdraws cable (non PPV) UFC events. MLS has no excuse for its awful viewer numbers except the terrible quality of the play on the field and lmao at the idea that getting a team in the festering Wastelands of Detroit would remedy that issue. Not saying you're wrong, but genuinely curious where you're getting these numbers. Is it on average that Liga MX out draws the NHL, MLB, and UFC or just when the giant clubs in Liga MX play each other?
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Apr 15, 2016 18:56
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Ciprian Maricon posted:Liga MX already gets more viewers than the NHL though, Liga MX outdraws cable (non PPV) UFC events. MLS has no excuse for its awful viewer numbers except the terrible quality of the play on the field and lmao at the idea that getting a team in the festering Wastelands of Detroit would remedy that issue. And the fact that it's only 20 years old. People have established connections to other teams already. People don't watch Liga MX because of the high level of play, they watch because they already have an interest there. It's hard to steal people's interest away from other leagues if they've been watching those their whole lives. MLS had three Wednesday games this week. They were competing with MLB games and none of the MLS games were nationally broadcast. MLS currently broadcasts ZERO loving game on Saturdays, which is their big game day. There are seven games being played on Saturday. None are nationally televised. It's hard to generate interest when you don't show people what you're doing.
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Apr 15, 2016 19:06
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SeaTard posted:I wonder how much getting rid of the International spot cap would help. Obviously drastically raising the salary cap would help a lot more, but changing the rules so that a team could go 100% non-US/Canada would let teams bring in more decent quality players to replace the guys making minimum wage right now. What about having 100% non-US/Can rosters with a salary cap but for every US/Can player you have they are exempt or raises the cap kinda like how Garber-bux works now (since nobody knows how they work). Are there any good MLS podcasts?
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Apr 15, 2016 19:15
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It doesn't help that the league is absurd in rules and design and worships this inane concept of "parity" as a major strength. The current Supporter's Shield, MLS Cup Winners and MLS Cup Runner ups are a combined 2-11-4 right now. For the overwhelming majority of the league attendance is the same or slightly (or a lot) less than the first five years the team was around. A lot of that is due to team's going from winning a Cup (chicago fire) to being the Chicago Fire as we know them the last 5 years. Or going from DC United of the 90's to DC United the turd sandwich. Here is my overall issue with MLS. The league is 20 years old and people constantly say "look how much it's improved in that time!" Well, why are we looking at 1996 to 2016? Shouldn't there be major differences in quality on the field between 2010 and 2016, given that represents major expansion, lots of incoming money, new stadiums, new broadcasting deals, online streaming etc? That time period is 30% of the league's existence, but the quality of play hasn't improved. Those who argue it has are simply looking at certain clubs rising as a result of the league being wildly erratic and inconsistent. Shammypants fucked around with this message at 19:21 on Apr 15, 2016 |
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Apr 15, 2016 19:18
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Remember when MLS national broadcasts were a hodgepodge of dates and times? At least now, Soccer Sunday has people knowing when (and where) to watch on a consistent basis.
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Apr 15, 2016 19:25
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Tigren posted:And the fact that it's only 20 years old. People have established connections to other teams already. People don't watch Liga MX because of the high level of play, they watch because they already have an interest there. It's hard to steal people's interest away from other leagues if they've been watching those their whole lives. Perhaps none are broadcast because no one is interested? This is a chicken-egg situation where it's not entirely clear what is driving interest, but I'm willing to bet the fact that MLS players are still technically worse than your average lower league player in any European country has something to do with it. In 10 years, will the excuse be "well we're only 30 years old, that's not nearly enough time to establish interest!"? What will the excuse be in 20, 30 years time when the league is still not at an acceptable quality, presuming it even lasts that long?
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Apr 15, 2016 19:35
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threeagainstfour posted:Not saying you're wrong, but genuinely curious where you're getting these numbers. Is it on average that Liga MX out draws the NHL, MLB, and UFC or just when the giant clubs in Liga MX play each other? It's definitely when big teams play. So while I wont pretend Liga MX is bigger than baseball or hockey (although if things continue it sure as hell could be soon) I think nit-picking the details is missing the point. MLS can't hide behind the excuse that there is a lack of interest in the United States when two foreign leagues are pulling great figures. Obviously people want to watch this sport, the important question is why are they continually choosing another product. If you buy into the idea that it's just not on TV enough, then you have to answer why companies like ESPN and NBC have recently started paying big bucks for foreign TV rights but not MLS. (It's because it's poo poo) Ciprian Maricon fucked around with this message at 19:57 on Apr 15, 2016 |
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Apr 15, 2016 19:53
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Tigren posted:MLS had three Wednesday games this week. They were competing with MLB games and none of the MLS games were nationally broadcast. MLS currently broadcasts ZERO loving game on Saturdays, which is their big game day. There are seven games being played on Saturday. None are nationally televised. It's hard to generate interest when you don't show people what you're doing. Yes, but this is the chicken-and-egg thing again. How do you get that national broadcast space (and those national broadcast dollars) when you're the fifth sport in the country (at best) AND not even the best example around of that fifth sport? Again, even "the best soccer league in the world" only occasionally draws more than a million viewers a game on US broadcast TV, so it's absolutely not just the quality of play or the existing allegiances of Liga MX audiences - and even if you conjured those factors out of whole cloth it wouldn't be sustainable because, unlike any other league in the world, an MLS drawing those numbers wouldn't also have an entirely different country where it was top dog to draw revenue from. That level of interest in the underlying sport has to be built some other way, and we already tried "go balls-to-the-wall trying to immediately put the highest quality of play out there for the US audience" 35 years ago - it didn't get enough revenue to sustain itself across a league and flamed out. There might be more money in sports across the board now (at least until people stop paying for cable sports packages, which I suspect is coming), but the international teams you'd be competing with for the best talent ALSO have more money to throw around. Unfortunately for people that fetishize European league structures, it seems have to go wide and THEN tall - or at least it is a better alternative than "welp we were too late to this soccer thing let's just shut up shop because everyone can watch foreign leagues instead!". XyrlocShammypants posted:Here is my overall issue with MLS. The league is 20 years old and people constantly say "look how much it's improved in that time!" Well, why are we looking at 1996 to 2016? Shouldn't there be major differences in quality on the field between 2010 and 2016, given that represents major expansion, lots of incoming money, new stadiums, new broadcasting deals, online streaming etc? That time period is 30% of the league's existence, but the quality of play hasn't improved. Those who argue it has are simply looking at certain clubs rising as a result of the league being wildly erratic and inconsistent. It strikes me here that the league still heavily relies on domestic players, by design, and six years isn't long enough to cycle a new generation of domestic players through (and MLS couldn't fix the awful US development system on its own even if it operated exactly like the PL in every jot and title). The international contingent IS getting better for the increase in revenues, but their influence is limited except on the highlight reels. Also I doubt it is a coincidence that both you and Ciprian are cursed with having current-vintage DC United as your local team, because yeah you're definitely getting the shortish end of the stick so far as ownership actually trying to improve the teams goes. (I say shortish because Chicago and Colorado still exist). Dallan Invictus fucked around with this message at 20:05 on Apr 15, 2016 |
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Apr 15, 2016 19:59
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Even if nobody's willing to pay big bucks for broadcasting rights, they should just sign a deal with local stations to show games for free. Having them on some channel in the 300's doesn't entice many kids, especially poor ones who might grow up to become future players but don't even have cable now. It's the same reason I'm surprised the wnba still exists; I could never find a game televised, and eventually I stopped looking.
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Apr 15, 2016 20:19
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Ciprian Maricon posted:It's definitely when big teams play. So while I wont pretend Liga MX is bigger than baseball or hockey (although if things continue it sure as hell could be soon) I think nit-picking the details is missing the point. MLS can't hide behind the excuse that there is a lack of interest in the United States when two foreign leagues are pulling great figures. Obviously people want to watch this sport, the important question is why are they continually choosing another product. If you buy into the idea that it's just not on TV enough, then you have to answer why companies like ESPN and NBC have recently started paying big bucks for foreign TV rights but not MLS. (It's because it's poo poo) To be fair this is just a factor of how many millions of Mexicans are in this country, gueros aren't watching liga mx
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Apr 15, 2016 20:45
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African AIDS cum posted:To be fair this is just a factor of how many millions of Mexicans are in this country, gueros aren't watching liga mx QFT, and even second-third generation Mexicans give less of a poo poo than their parents. At the stupid CCL match in Seattle it seemed like all the Mexican families were divided with a ton of the younger ones wearing Sounders poo poo while their parents were wearing Club America crap. Dallan Invictus posted:It would absolutely improve the quality of play, but the league will never go for it (and the USSF certainly won't, to the extent that the USSF can restrain MLS at all), because freezing out domestics simply because they're bad goes against half the reason the league exists in the first place. Honestly yeah, although I would say the quality of American / Canadian players is improving albeit more slowly. Its kind of telling how guys who were starters (or loving DP's looking at you Freddy Adu) just 3-4 years ago are now out of the league playing for loving USL or NASL teams. With the emergence of academies and the like I think domestic players will get better and right now were in a weird transition state. I agree though there are not enough good veteran Americans around to fill out league rosters, each team probably has 3-4 decent to good Americans bolstered by internationals.
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Apr 15, 2016 21:34
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African AIDS cum posted:To be fair this is just a factor of how many millions of Mexicans are in this country, gueros aren't watching liga mx
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Apr 15, 2016 21:35
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LMAO "theres no audience for this game in this country" *sees Liga MX ratings* "Uhhhh.... brown people don't count"
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Apr 15, 2016 21:53
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Ciprian Maricon posted:LMAO What is your point? MLS won't ever tap this demographic, if Trump even allows them to stay
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Apr 15, 2016 22:04
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Maybe if there was an MLS club that was like a version of a Liga MX club, but in the USA? Has anyone had this idea yet?
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Apr 15, 2016 22:08
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Simone Poodoin posted:Maybe if there was an MLS club that was like a version of a Liga MX club, but in the USA? Has anyone had this idea yet? Good point OP this idea sounds like a winner, especially if located in an area like southern california that is full of Liga MXicans
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Apr 15, 2016 22:19
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I, too, know better than MLS executives how to best grow and market this league to those living in the US. I will continue to loudly voice my opinion on The Something Awful Forums because nobody is sick and tired of my posts about how hosed up this league is. I bet those executives are reading this forum right now, and if I keep complaining about pro/rel, ratings and attendance, they'll change their ways. 
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Apr 15, 2016 22:32
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The vaunted MLS executives overseeing a league with worse TV ratings than infomercials and reruns of Gilligan's Island
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Apr 15, 2016 22:35
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In other news, this tackle was reviewed by the powers that be and was decided to not be a red card offense. Yet De Jong is suspended for three games. http://i.imgur.com/X8bY1yD.gifv
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Apr 15, 2016 22:40
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Tigren posted:
This is the hardest part for me. NBC has made it so easy to see every drat EPL game and as a soccer fan trying to get into MLS, not being able to sit down on my couch at match time and find anything on tv is incredibly frustrating.
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Apr 15, 2016 23:40
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ScooterMcTiny posted:This is the hardest part for me. NBC has made it so easy to see every drat EPL game and as a soccer fan trying to get into MLS, not being able to sit down on my couch at match time and find anything on tv is incredibly frustrating. You're in luck! Tonight, you can tune in to the Galaxy game in Spanish. Or turn your Spanish into quite possibly the worst English language broadcast team around using your SAP button.
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Apr 15, 2016 23:48
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Harry Shipp returns to Chicago tomorrow, in what is likely to be a profoundly depressing match for my fellow Fire fans. If the defense manages to hold Montreal scoreless for 40 minutes they will set the Fire record for most minutes without giving up a goal though! That's something I didn't expect to see from this poo poo-rear end team. Hello Towel fucked around with this message at 23:54 on Apr 15, 2016 |
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Apr 15, 2016 23:51
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Bio-Hazard posted:I, too, know better than MLS executives how to best grow and market this league to those living in the US. Appeals to authority are really lame, dude. African AIDS cum posted:The vaunted MLS executives overseeing a league with worse TV ratings than infomercials and reruns of Gilligan's Island Also this lol Aves Maria! fucked around with this message at 00:01 on Apr 16, 2016 |
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Apr 15, 2016 23:59
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Bio-Hazard posted:I, too, know better than MLS executives how to best grow and market this league to those living in the US. No business/government has ever made a bad decision because they know more than everyone else.
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Apr 16, 2016 00:06
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I dont mind expansion. If you cant make the best league why not go for the biggest? Don't stop until you put 20 teams in the playoffs. MoPZiG fucked around with this message at 00:35 on Apr 16, 2016 |
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Apr 16, 2016 00:21
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Tigren posted:You're in luck! Tonight, you can tune in to the Galaxy game in Spanish. Or turn your Spanish into quite possibly the worst English language broadcast team around using your SAP button. Unless you have Fios and then SAP doesn't work
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Apr 16, 2016 00:37
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