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Whoa. Wife Turds posted:Why would the bloodied scarf suck with controller? Real quesiton as I've never picked it up. Seems like the range is constant or at the very least limited so it's not like the cursor would be a huge advantage. Can you not phase through walls unless you have m+k or something? The bloodied scarf changes your dodge so that if you tap the button you do a quick teleport that is basically exactly like a dodge roll, but if you hold it briefly you teleport to the mouse cursor as soon as you release the button, the range is anywhere on screen but inside the current room. So you can near instantly precision blink anywhere on the screen as much as you want, and it's marvelous. With a controller, you have to guide a shadow version of you around with the stick while you're holding the button and you'll teleport to that and it's pretty clumsy and bad.
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Apr 15, 2016 16:25
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Finally managed to put together a difficult flawless win against the dragun with the marine and it doesn't unlock anything extra. And then I choked really hard fighting the marine's past and died for the second time trying for that past kill 
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Apr 15, 2016 16:30
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lazorexplosion posted:The bloodied scarf changes your dodge so that if you tap the button you do a quick teleport that is basically exactly like a dodge roll, but if you hold it briefly you teleport to the mouse cursor as soon as you release the button, the range is anywhere on screen but inside the current room. So you can near instantly precision blink anywhere on the screen as much as you want, and it's marvelous. With a controller, you have to guide a shadow version of you around with the stick while you're holding the button and you'll teleport to that and it's pretty clumsy and bad. Just a simple correction but you can teleport into other rooms as well if they're on screen. That dude Cobalt was able to teleport to the Bullet's tip from the room above it and got it that way.
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Apr 15, 2016 16:33
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I'm able to get to the third floor consistently now. I really enjoy this game but have to agree there are not enough ammo drops. I played about 4 runs last night and I did not see a single ammo drop the entire time. It'd be nice if there was a decent chance to get a partial ammo drop. Also the lead bullet item is absolute poo poo, but I picked one up right before fighting the Treadnought. Lead bullet + Stinger was a pretty good combination for that fight.
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Apr 15, 2016 16:38
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Once they improve the ammo drops, the game will be pretty solid. The current balance is so far off that you are discouraged from using anything but your primary gun for 2-3 floors which is real bad. The Pilot's lockpick should get fixed too so it either works more often or doesn't break the chest if it fails, because his lovely gun is not even close to worth the other benefits.
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Apr 15, 2016 16:46
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In my last handful of runs I have had 2 or 3 ammo drops on the first floor that I had to walk away from. The ammo is there, you just need to get lucky with RNG that its there when you actually need it.
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Apr 15, 2016 17:02
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In my last run I had like 3 ammo drops before I'd even found a new gun. They really oughta put some checks into the game that make them only spawn if you need ammo, replace them with keys if not. Of course, once I did find a gun no more ammo spawned for the rest of the run.
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Apr 15, 2016 17:06
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Stating once again that Sorceress mode is currently superior to the normal game, and it shouldn't cost credits or prevent credit drops.
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Apr 15, 2016 17:34
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Floodkiller posted:Stating once again that Sorceress mode is currently superior to the normal game, and it shouldn't cost credits or prevent credit drops. Yeah I'm not sure why it both costs credits and prevents credits it's kind of a bummer. Luckily I only had to play it twice before I beat it for the unlock now I'll probably never play it again. Boss rush on the other hand, I had a drat near perfect run going but ended up running out of ammo for everything on the dragun and dying. Don't think I'll get that close again anytime soon.
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Apr 15, 2016 17:42
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Kiranamos posted:Once they improve the ammo drops, the game will be pretty solid. The current balance is so far off that you are discouraged from using anything but your primary gun for 2-3 floors which is real bad. The Pilot's lockpick should get fixed too so it either works more often or doesn't break the chest if it fails, because his lovely gun is not even close to worth the other benefits. Just fixing the Pilot and the Hunter would do a lot for redeeming this game for me, getting locked out of chests when the game is already so stingy with loot makes the Pilot worthless and I've never seen the Hunter's corgi do anything worth two whole item slots
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Apr 15, 2016 17:44
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I didn't realize hegemoney could be a random room drop
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Apr 15, 2016 17:44
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Kiranamos posted:Once they improve the ammo drops, the game will be pretty solid. The current balance is so far off that you are discouraged from using anything but your primary gun for 2-3 floors which is real bad. The Pilot's lockpick should get fixed too so it either works more often or doesn't break the chest if it fails, because his lovely gun is not even close to worth the other benefits. The price reduction in stores is pretty huge.
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Apr 15, 2016 17:57
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I got an ammo synthesizer out of the first shop, and that made the rate of ammo aquisition drat-near perfect.
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Apr 15, 2016 18:06
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The characters seem reasonably balanced against each other really, considering how swingy the game is elsewhere. Re: Ammo drops, I've had a lot of runs where ammo seems to drop every other room and I've had a lot of runs where I've got 5 empty guns going into The Hollow. I think it would go a long way if they could figure out a way to make runs more consistent with ammo drops. Also they need to make it so that you can permanently scare of Resourceful Rat because getting an ammo drop when your weapons are mostly full and then not seeing any more for the rest of the floor is frustratingly dumb. E: Also throw in more munchers. Turning a couple of empties into one fully stocked gun can do a lot to recover a lovely run.
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Apr 15, 2016 18:13
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Jibo posted:The characters seem reasonably balanced against each other really, considering how swingy the game is elsewhere. The rat is just a cover for anti-backtracking to give it flavor. They wouldn't add a way to get rid of it, and I wouldn't want to have one. What they could do is have ammo packs stored on your character (like blanks), and reloading a weapon when it is empty would use the ammo pack to fill to full (maybe require actually pressing the reload button instead of firing on empty to do this). Floodkiller fucked around with this message at 18:21 on Apr 15, 2016 |
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Apr 15, 2016 18:19
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Floodkiller posted:The rat is just a cover for anti-backtracking to give it flavor. They wouldn't add a way to get rid of it, and I wouldn't want to have one. I don't buy this. The game encourages backtracking. The way the game works, you spend a lot of time going back to locked chests and having to walk through empty rooms as you go to explore another branch of the floor you're on. At least once per floor you end up having to trek across half the level to check out some unexplored room because for some reason the game likes to generate floors where you will have like four rooms in a row without teleporters. Not to mention how much backtracking your'e going to end up doing if you are trying to find the secret room on a floor, or find the water barrel on the first floor, or refill your health after a boss fight. RR seems like more of a mechanic to prevent weird combos and possibly force people to live "in the moment" in terms of ammunition, which would be fine if ammo and items in general were not so scarce.
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Apr 15, 2016 18:28
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Jibo posted:I don't buy this. The game encourages backtracking. The way the game works, you spend a lot of time going back to locked chests and having to walk through empty rooms as you go to explore another branch of the floor you're on. At least once per floor you end up having to trek across half the level to check out some unexplored room because for some reason the game likes to generate floors where you will have like four rooms in a row without teleporters. Not to mention how much backtracking your'e going to end up doing if you are trying to find the secret room on a floor, or find the water barrel on the first floor, or refill your health after a boss fight. By backtracking, I don't mean exploration (which is covered by teleporters). I mean the BoI style optimization backtracking. You avoid picking up armor until a boss fight, backtrack to shops to sell a useless active item out of a chest for more money and then pick up your good one, ensure you fully empty a weapon of ammo to get the most out of an ammo drop when you backtrack to pick one up, etc.
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Apr 15, 2016 18:40
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someone suggested making ammo drops fill 1/4th as much but be 4 times as common. That makes perfect sense to me. Or maybe 1/2, 2x. It's weird for a game all about gunplay to apply such a massive variance to a core resource.
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Apr 15, 2016 19:06
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Kiranamos posted:Once they improve the ammo drops, the game will be pretty solid. The current balance is so far off that you are discouraged from using anything but your primary gun for 2-3 floors which is real bad. The Pilot's lockpick should get fixed too so it either works more often or doesn't break the chest if it fails, because his lovely gun is not even close to worth the other benefits. I dunno, he's got increased ammo for all weapons, and having two action item slots can be super powerful in many runs. He's got the worst start, but the best potential.
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Apr 15, 2016 19:11
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I made it to the first two secret dungeons, the one to get the crest and the one that uses it. Isn't there a secret level in the third part of the dungeon? If so how do you access it, and if not, how do you fight the Gun King? Edit: FOUND HIM! Still, is there a secret on level 3? MussoliniB fucked around with this message at 19:29 on Apr 15, 2016 |
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Apr 15, 2016 19:22
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Floodkiller posted:By backtracking, I don't mean exploration (which is covered by teleporters). I mean the BoI style optimization backtracking. You avoid picking up armor until a boss fight, backtrack to shops to sell a useless active item out of a chest for more money and then pick up your good one, ensure you fully empty a weapon of ammo to get the most out of an ammo drop when you backtrack to pick one up, etc. This reasoning is pretty bad. First of all, what's bad about backtracking to optimize a run? And then beyond that, why should the player be robbed of resources that he doesn't need at a particular moment (this is largely limited to ammo). You can pick up armor whenever, and health never despawns, so you're encouraged to backtrack for health, at the very least. And with items out of chests, if you get a crappy item, why shouldn't you be able to profit off of it? Or if you find another good item, but don't have room for it, why is it reasonable to just lose it?
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Apr 15, 2016 19:43
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Backtracking is boring and you shouldn't be encouraged to do it. It's one of isaac's hundreds of problems. R. Rat is good, it just ends up exacerbating other flaws the game shouldn't have. Other mechanics encouraging you to backtrack is an unrelated flaw with the game rather than a desire for you to backtrack IMO. Like many of the game's problems I feel like it comes down to bad execution rather than intention.
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Apr 15, 2016 19:57
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LuciferMorningstar posted:This reasoning is pretty bad. First of all, what's bad about backtracking to optimize a run? And then beyond that, why should the player be robbed of resources that he doesn't need at a particular moment (this is largely limited to ammo). You can pick up armor whenever, and health never despawns, so you're encouraged to backtrack for health, at the very least. And with items out of chests, if you get a crappy item, why shouldn't you be able to profit off of it? Or if you find another good item, but don't have room for it, why is it reasonable to just lose it? If the game is a puzzle to optimize your chances of winning, or is balanced around smartly making the most of your resources, then optimization through backtracking can be fine to implement (see: NetHack or Dungeon Crawl). Most of those roguelikes usually have a way to shortcut accessing your stash though (bag of holding, Ctrl+F to auto travel to item); this is something BoI lacks, which is why it becomes boring but optimal to backtrack. Gungeon, if going by developer intentions, is mostly trying to avoid that kind of system (through R. Rat, unlimited gun space, etc.) in order to encourage you to just keep moving and exploring. It is intended to be a system where your skill at the game is more important than small optimizations to get an edge, so that you keep heading to new challenges; health backtracking is an exception for what appears to be the purpose of accessibility (less skilled players get a bigger margin of error for success). This is why you see things like the patchnotes that make it impossible to detect hidden walls with the basic pistol period, instead of watching particle effects. The thing is, the game has all these small quirks (scarce ammo, scarce keys, etc.) that a player may feel like they have to optimize to get enough of an edge to actually make progress, in which they are met with a rat laughing in their face. The problem isn't disallowing backtracking, it is designing their other systems in such a way that amplifies the player's gripes when they can't mitigate it through backtracking (and would be better solved by fixing those other systems).
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Apr 15, 2016 20:21
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Floodkiller posted:If the game is a puzzle to optimize your chances of winning, or is balanced around smartly making the most of your resources, then optimization through backtracking can be fine to implement (see: NetHack or Dungeon Crawl). Most of those roguelikes usually have a way to shortcut accessing your stash though (bag of holding, Ctrl+F to auto travel to item); this is something BoI lacks, which is why it becomes boring but optimal to backtrack. Man, if only there were teleporters to make moving around faster, so that backtracking for something like ammo takes ~5 seconds. Oh wait...
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Apr 15, 2016 20:29
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Jesus, the black hole gun is broken and getting it basically causes an instant win. I did the entirety of jammed dragun, bullet hell, and the lich without taking a single point of damage
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Apr 15, 2016 20:34
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LuciferMorningstar posted:Man, if only there were teleporters to make moving around faster, so that backtracking for something like ammo takes ~5 seconds. Oh wait... Thanks for reading the whole post  There are so many other solutions to relieving player frustration over lack of ammo/guns/keys than to enable stash backtracking (including the one I provided of just letting you collect full ammos that are used automatically when you do need them). Alternatively, I guess they could allow you to kill the rat at the cost of max curse if you want it that bad.
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Apr 15, 2016 20:46
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Floodkiller posted:There are so many other solutions to relieving player frustration over lack of ammo/guns/keys than to enable stash backtracking (including the one I provided of just letting you collect full ammos that are used automatically when you do need them). Alternatively, I guess they could allow you to kill the rat at the cost of max curse if you want it that bad. Yeah, I suppose I agree. But you'll still end up backtracking for health, if you need it. And maybe for chests, depending on how keys get handled. And maybe to buy stuff from the shop. Perhaps don't encourage it, or make it unnecessary when possible, but I don't see any reason to forbid it, if someone wants to do it. If you think it's boring, don't do it.
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Apr 15, 2016 20:57
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Floodkiller posted:The thing is, the game has all these small quirks (scarce ammo, scarce keys, etc.) that a player may feel like they have to optimize to get enough of an edge to actually make progress, in which they are met with a rat laughing in their face. The problem isn't disallowing backtracking, it is designing their other systems in such a way that amplifies the player's gripes when they can't mitigate it through backtracking (and would be better solved by fixing those other systems). This is a really good way of framing the game's biggest problems. And it's why I think a lot of the solutions people throw out to fix the ammo problems are really just bandaids that wouldn't do anything to fix the root of the problem. Making ammo more likely to drop or whatever doesn't do a thing to make it impossible for that screen of like 8 empty guns vs. dragun to happen, and that should not happen without the player just firing all their bullets into a wall or something. The player should not feel encouraged to do boring things in a game whose art and content sell it on variety. There are over 100 guns in the game and you use the most boring one probably 25% of the time or more. If you choose not to, you will often find yourself forced to anyway against enemies with twice as much health, making it even worse. That is garbo design, plain and simple. If that problem went away I think a lot of other ones would be lessened by extension, such as the player wanting to be allowed to backtrack.
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Apr 15, 2016 21:02
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I end up backtracking a lot at the end of a floor right before I fight the boss but after I clear every room. That way I can choose what to spend my keys on. I also don't go into a room where I know a chest will be (and it's easy to tell) in case it's a timed exploding chest. The Rat doesn't touch health or keys, so you can always backtrack for those. Since you always pick up guns no matter what, the only things you need to worry about are active items and ammo drops. Ammo drops are the only ones that are annoying.
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Apr 15, 2016 21:12
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As someone said earlier, a lot of the guns are so bad that they should really be infinite-ammo alternatives to your starting gun.
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Apr 15, 2016 21:26
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The shittiest gun of them all: Charmed bow. I guess aside from that weakass gun that sprays its ammo all over the room hitting nothing.
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Apr 15, 2016 22:01
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I hate the cactus one more than a lot of the straight up bad guns (Derringer, Unfinished Gun) because it feels like you're doing no damage at all
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Apr 15, 2016 22:30
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FrickenMoron posted:The shittiest gun of them all: Charmed bow. That's just like your opinion man, I like charmed bow, especially in the later areas like bullet hell. Charm the right enemy and they'll clear the entire room for you.
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Apr 15, 2016 22:31
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Charm is potent but it's a supplement weapon. I wouldn't want it to be the one gun I get on floor 1. It's worthless against bosses most of the time. Corsair is still my single most hated gun of all. I don't even pick it up, the rat can have it.
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Apr 15, 2016 22:41
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Power of Pecota posted:I hate the cactus one more than a lot of the straight up bad guns (Derringer, Unfinished Gun) because it feels like you're doing no damage at all unfinished gun is a good room clearer since the bullets have infinite pierce. im glad when i get it since it'll be useful through the end of hollow at least all the other tier one guns have way higher dps than the starting weapons, and usually a better fire rate and clip size as well. even the derringer can one-shot most floor one and two enemies with a clip, faster than any starting weapon can and with a very quick reload and good knockback to keep enemies you can't instantly kill away from you the only weapons i have issues with are charge weapons, because they distract you from dodging and their power falls off super quickly if they can't kill targets in one hit. charm bow at least neutralizes certain enemies, but the sling is just a pain in the rear end, and even the higher tier versions like the charge rifle don't do enough damage to justify the charge time. alien blaster gets a pass because it's also semiauto
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Apr 15, 2016 22:54
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Unfinished Gun is great if you also get the Crutch. Homing-Piercing Shots (that go pretty far with rocket bullets too) are very good. I do wish it would transform into a finished gun after X chambers though - the description certainly implies it should.
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Apr 15, 2016 23:09
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The sling owns actually and leads to really easy perfects.
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Apr 16, 2016 00:08
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IronicDongz posted:The sling owns actually and leads to really easy perfects. Yeah, it's a definite boss killer and insane.
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Apr 16, 2016 00:35
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hmmmm i wrote it off after trying it against knights and skelezords and other "big" enemies and not seeing any difference. i guess i better give it another shot especially since it shows up in shops approximately fifteen times more often than any other gun
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Apr 16, 2016 00:44
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I think it specifically does extra damage to bosses.
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Apr 16, 2016 00:46
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