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Shimrra Jamaane posted:I'm doing a re watch of Season 1 right now since I haven't seen it since I first watched it a couple years back. I am really confused regarding Vary's motivations. He is overhead by Arya conspiring in the dungeon about how they are waiting for when the time is right for the Targayans to cross the Narrow Sea and return to conquer the 7 kingdoms. But in that same episode Varys tries to have Dani assassinated. And considering in Season 5 how Varys openly supports Dani, and makes it clear that he has all along, why the gently caress did he try and have killed? So were the writers at this point planning on eventually introducing fake-Aeagon? Because nothing about Varys in the show makes any sense at all. He isn't aware that Visreys isn't going to get himself killed, and any assassination attempt on Dany, successful or not, is going to get Drogo to cross the sea.
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Apr 16, 2016 04:37
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Except Robert makes it extremely clear in the Small Council Meeting that he wants Visreys dead as well.
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Apr 16, 2016 04:40
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Regardless, the wine merchant only tried to sell to Dany. I'm pretty sure Varys and Illyrio had a hand in how all the other assasination attempts before that were unsuccessful. ADWD was released after season 1 was filmed and aired, not sure how forthcoming GRRM was with D&D about fAegon before that.
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Apr 16, 2016 04:44
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:Except Robert makes it extremely clear in the Small Council Meeting that he wants Visreys dead as well. But if he didn't send an assassin for Viserys, then I understand the aim. Piss off Drogo so he finally invades with Viserys. And Book-Varys's plan is dumb anyway, so *shrug*.
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Apr 16, 2016 04:48
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I guess that all makes some sense. And I've never read the books so I'm not familiar with Varys's plan in them. Anyway I forgot how Jaimie was such a loving dickhead wow
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Apr 16, 2016 04:53
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Varys' motivation is hard to suss out sometimes because he acts upon both his own wills and the will of the current king he serves. Like in season 4 Tyrion asks Varys to lie for him, and Varys says that he'll do no such thing because any lie from him to those in power is basically his own death. Regardless of his support for Dany or Viserys, he was bound by keeping his own head on his shoulders that he execute King Robert's orders.
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Apr 16, 2016 04:57
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I don't think Jaime would have become one of my favorite characters if he had not been as big of a dick at first.
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Apr 16, 2016 05:02
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twistedmentat posted:I don't think Jaime would have become one of my favorite characters if he had not been as big of a dick at first. Too bad he goes through his entire redemption arc only for the showrunners to write, director, shoot, and then edit a scene where he rapes Cersei entirely by accident.
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Apr 16, 2016 05:29
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:Id support a 13-14 episode final season even if it meant having to wait until June for it. I think anyone reasonable would wait a few months for a larger final season that wraps everything up instead of just quickly resolving plotlines. I personally think they should have done 12 episodes from the start.
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Apr 16, 2016 07:41
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I just got to the part in Season 1 where Ned refuses Renly's offer to take control of the capital before Joffrey succeeded to the throne. Goddamit Ned... just... godammit. 
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Apr 16, 2016 07:52
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I think the point is Stannis would be a terrible king because they would all be/are terrible kings. Kings are terrible. It's a system of governance based on arbitrary rule. The outcomes of that will always be unjust for the majority of people. I think that's part of what GRRMs driving at anyway.
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Apr 16, 2016 09:20
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It's best not to think too much about the logic behind these '8-dimensional chess' plans of Varys, Littlefinger, et al.
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Apr 16, 2016 10:18
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I don't think it's fair to compare Varys to Littlefinger in terms of scheming. Littlefinger is a diabolical political mastermind who is only going to be defeated because he's operating under the belief there aren't ice monsters. He had a King killed right in front of everyone at a drat party and was never even questioned about it. Half of Varys' plans either make no god drat sense or directly contradict his own intentions. He killed a Hand in secret and still had to go into hiding after it.
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Apr 16, 2016 12:02
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OrthoTrot posted:I think the point is Stannis would be a terrible king because they would all be/are terrible kings. Kings are terrible. It's a system of governance based on arbitrary rule. The outcomes of that will always be unjust for the majority of people. Technically a wise, just, compassionate king would be the best form of government. Probably. It's not really ever been tested being human beings are poo poo.
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Apr 16, 2016 14:31
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:Too bad he goes through his entire redemption arc only for the showrunners to write, director, shoot, and then edit a scene where he rapes Cersei entirely by accident. If it's a redemption arc, he hasn't really completed it yet, in the show or the books. He's never really atoned for nearly killing Bran or anything like that, he's just been humbled and been able to understand the Starks a little better. As for Varys' plan, his plan in the books does make more sense than the one in the show. In the books he thinks he's made himself the ideal King by carefully raising Aegon from birth to be that, and it seems likely that Aegon is, in reality, Illyrio's son. Both of these things go a long way towards explaining why Varys would back this boy. But in the show, Varys just says he decided many years ago that Westeros needed a ruler that was gentler than Stannis but stronger than Tommen/better than Robert was, who would not prey upon the smallfolk, could be inspiring and is loved by millions, has a powerful army and "the right family name". But when he began plotting against the Baratheons, the only thing Viserys and Daenerys had was an illustrious family name, but one tarnished by the fact that their father was a horrible maniac and one of the worst kings in all of Westeros' history. They had no army, there was nothing about either one of them when they were younger that would imply they'd be gentle or strong, nor anything that would imply they'd have any kind of special relationship with the smallfolk. Varys and Illyrio do manage to get them an army in the Dothraki, but that still doesn't change the fact that their family name isn't purely one that inspires hope in the smallfolk and neither one has demonstrated any wisdom, gentleness, or strength at that point. By the time Daenerys demonstrates any sort of inclination towards being someone that people would follow, she has lost the majority of her army. But ultimately, let's look at the claims Varys makes about what Daenerys is. Her name is renowned, but unlike a Fake Aegon the association she has is not specifically with Rhaegar, who was seemingly lionized by the people, but with the Mad King. She has the Unsullied, the dragons, and some sell swords, that's a relatively powerful army, though not one that could take on, say, the amount of men the Tyrells can field. She's proved an inspiration to some people, but the people of Westeros are not slaves in need of a "Mhysa". She is stronger than Tommen, but gentler than Stannis? She burns people with magic fire on a much greater scale than Stannis does, she has a similar conception of herself that Stannis does early on in the books/arguably throughout the show, in which she believes it's her "right" to be Queen because of various ephemeral reasons. To be more specific, she thinks she's the rightful ruler of Westeros because her name is Targaryen, in spite of the fact that they won their royalty through conquest and were themselves conquered in turn, making Stannis actually the rightful king even if one thinks he'd be a bad one. So there's nothing that makes her the "rightful" queen practically, at best "destiny" is what makes her the rightful queen, which is hardly something the anti-magic Varys would take as a positive belief. Speaking of Varys, he helped destabilize the realm for the sake of getting Viserys or Daenerys on the throne for the sake of "peace", but Robert's rule was quite peaceful. One could argue that the situation with the Lannisters would eventually explode into war, but if he really wanted to stop that he was in a position where he could've done so without destabilizing the seven kingdoms and helping the war along. If the show reveals that Varys is somehow related to the Targaryens or has some other reason for always wanting them in power regardless of the consequences, then perhaps his motives will make sense. But if we're supposed to take what he says to Tyrion as his legitimate motives, it makes less sense than in the books for sure. What's more, for all that people are willing to decide that characters in the books are pointless without even knowing where most of those characters are going, there's a very simple reason why the circumstances surrounding Aegon in the books is more interesting than the lack of them: conflict is what makes stories interesting. Tyrion has now set in motion a division between the two "Targaryen" factions based on his own selfish desire for vengeance, Daenerys is less likely to view Aegon as someone worth hearing out if he has already arrived in Westeros and taken/tried to take the Iron Throne. But when she saw the vision of the Mummer's Dragon in the House of the Undying, it was being raised above a cheering crowd. So what if she makes it to Westeros finally, finds this boy that claims to be her nephew on the throne, and in the second "Dance of Dragons" that is being foreshadowed to happen she kills him, since he has no dragons? What if Tyrion's manipulations and Daenerys' dithering in Essos lead to her being viewed not as a savior, but as an interloper who killed the beloved new king of Westeros? The more conflict Daenerys experiences in her pursuit of the crown, the more interesting her story will be, and making all of her enemies obviously evil, literally faceless thugs who only present conflict in that they're violent towards people Daenerys cares about is a far less interesting obstacle for her or Tyrion to face. Hopefully with the Ironborn still crossing paths with Daenerys in the show she'll have more interesting obstacles to face, but so far in the show it feels like she gains power and loyalty far too easily compared to everyone else. Beeez fucked around with this message at 16:26 on Apr 16, 2016 |
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Apr 16, 2016 16:24
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Re: Varys. Gonna post this again since it's the spoiler thread: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0M_hhVg9XUE I think this best sums up what Varys's ultimate goal in the books might be. It makes a ton of sense, and it's a shame that almost all of it has been abandoned in the show. It's almost as if D&D decided somewhere in season 2 to get rid of all the Aegon stuff, and are desperately trying to cram Varys into the plot without having it be ham-fisted and odd. it is
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Apr 16, 2016 17:18
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It's just one tell-tale sign that there's a severe divergence between the books and the adaptation, so the book hounds that want closure probably won't get it.
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Apr 16, 2016 17:21
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:Too bad he goes through his entire redemption arc only for the showrunners to write, director, shoot, and then edit a scene where he rapes Cersei entirely by accident. do you mean GRRM because that happens in the books too
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Apr 16, 2016 17:37
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counterfeitsaint posted:Technically a wise, just, compassionate king would be the best form of government. Probably. It's not really ever been tested being human beings are poo poo. The wise, just and compassionate are excluded from rule under feudalism because you can't act that way and resist the machinations of those who don't. That's part of the point of Neds storyline, or Renlys even I guess. Or there's people like Robb who try to act justly and cause untold misery for the majority of the population. Even just rulers rule by caprice. Plus the justice they serve is to preserve the feudal order. For Robb, or Aragorn for another example, destroying the lives of thousands in their wars is precisely upholding feudal justice. And they aren't wrong.
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Apr 16, 2016 17:57
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Frankenfinger posted:Re: Varys. Gonna post this again since it's the spoiler thread: Nah Varys is actually a merman and is secretly trying to melt the wall so that the resulting rise in sea level increases his people's territory. The only reason he wants Dany in Westeros is so that her Dragons will breath fire on the wall.
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Apr 16, 2016 19:09
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OrthoTrot posted:The wise, just and compassionate are excluded from rule under feudalism because you can't act that way and resist the machinations of those who don't. That's part of the point of Neds storyline, or Renlys even I guess. And one of the themes on ASOIAF is that feudal systems that the power stems purely from the threat of direct violence. Every noble from the smallest lord to the King holds his power because if you don't submit, they'd cut your head off. It doesn't seem like there is any code of laws or any kind of formal legal system or rights. There are traditions for the nobility, but if the King says family X smells funny and that offends him, there's not much to stop him having them all killed.
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Apr 16, 2016 19:37
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computer parts posted:It's just one tell-tale sign that there's a severe divergence between the books and the adaptation, so the book hounds that want closure probably won't get it.
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Apr 16, 2016 19:38
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meristem posted:Or Varys simply dies before the endgame, and his plans with him, book or show. My money would be on this. No way to verify that before the books finish.
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Apr 16, 2016 20:12
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counterfeitsaint posted:Technically a wise, just, compassionate king would be the best form of government. Probably. It's not really ever been tested being human beings are poo poo. No it isn't you weirdo. Jesus christ, when did we get infested with monarchist sympathizers? Where was the bit where Stannis banned laughing at feasts? I remember plenty of his humorless (though he himself would crack jokes) and arbitrary rulings but I really don't remember that bit.
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Apr 16, 2016 20:13
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Technically an omnipresent, omniscient, fully impartial and infinitely wise, compassionate and fair God Emperor would be the best form of government, but we digress.
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Apr 16, 2016 20:18
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ACOK Prologue:quote:The lower tables were crowded with knights, archers, and sellsword captains, tearing apart loaves of black bread soaked in fish stew. Here there was no loud laughter or raucous shouting such as marred the dignity of other men's feasts; Lord Stannis did not permit such. He didn't ban all laughter (people laugh when Patchface runs into Cressen in the next paragraph), it seems like he just clamped down on people being obnoxious, which is quite reasonable.
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Apr 16, 2016 20:25
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A tyrannical monarchy requires the explicit existence of extrajudicial violence to function. A "benevolent" monarchy requires the implicit existence of extrajudicial violence to function. Neither for me.
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Apr 16, 2016 20:26
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Technically an omnipresent, omniscient, fully impartial and infinitely wise, compassionate and fair God Emperor would be the best form of government, but we digress. Secret Nbiw is the true path to our salvation.
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Apr 16, 2016 21:21
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I just watched a bunch of those Alt Shift X videos and they were all really interesting. Then I remember that less than half of these theories will ever be addressed because they are not in the show and the books will never be finished.
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Apr 16, 2016 21:55
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Now watch Preston Jacobs videos for wacky theories from someone who reads too much into everything.
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Apr 16, 2016 22:20
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Jacobs is entertaining precisely because he just takes something and runs with it. You can tell he's just having fun with his dumb bullshit.
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Apr 16, 2016 22:34
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The greatest formation of governance is a federated system of worker's councils, soviets, if you will,
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Apr 17, 2016 00:26
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Oh I am well aware of the indepth analysis of Preston Jacobs... Frankly if GRRM had any sense of decency and humor he would realize that he'll never finish the books based on his original plans and thus should just push out the rest of the series following ALL of Preston Jacobs theories verbatim.
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Apr 17, 2016 00:37
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TK-42-1 posted:Jacobs is entertaining precisely because he just takes something and runs with it. You can tell he's just having fun with his dumb bullshit.
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Apr 17, 2016 01:03
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:and the books will never be finished. By the way, Gurm said "sure" when someone asked him if he wants to rejoin the writing staff of the show when Winds was done. In case anyone was under the false impression that he was planning on working diligently on Dream after finishing Winds.
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Apr 17, 2016 02:54
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Lycus posted:By the way, Gurm said "sure" when someone asked him if he wants to rejoin the writing staff of the show when Winds was done. In case anyone was under the false impression that he was planning on working diligently on Dream after finishing Winds. Writing for the show will be wrapped up around summer 2017 so he better get a move on!
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Apr 17, 2016 03:36
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hah hahahah http://i.imgur.com/m3wT4j0.webm
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Apr 17, 2016 04:45
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 Tell me this is from a skit and not reality
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Apr 17, 2016 04:51
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Ginette Reno posted:
Saturday Night Live.
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Apr 17, 2016 04:52
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Ashcans posted:One of the reasons I like Jacobs is that he doesn't just pick at details in the books, he actually pulls in other works from GRRM to talk about overarching themes and trends in his writing. It's interesting and also makes stuff like 'the Others are actually telekinetic mutants' seem believable when you know that telekinesis is a big thing GRRM has used before. Well since GRRM is lazy it makes sense that he'll just reuse his old ideas.
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Apr 17, 2016 04:52
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